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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bastard bingo around the campfire

984 replies

helplesshopeless · 09/06/2021 10:51

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out! Grin

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support Flowers

OP posts:
helplesshopeless · 18/06/2021 14:50

@whatdirection -Thank you for the ‘I cannot act as…’ list. You are of course correct, and those statements are untrue, at least for a majority of the time (e.g. I think sometimes he does do things that shows that he truly cares, sometimes he does acknowledge my needs etc…but nothing is consistent with him). And that does help give me some clarity.

I keep wondering to myself if at some point in future, when potentially in a healthy relationship with someone else, I’ll look back at this time and realise how badly I’ve been treated. As at this point, I just accept him getting angry because my eyes watered a bit/accept him saying he thought it was pathetic. That is all fairly mild and inoffensive stuff from him. I keep switching between accepting that, but then also standing back and remembering that Michelin star meal I wanted and mentioned in the first thread (i.e. the super high standards that he wont ever meet).

Oh and FWIW I think the counsellor probably looked like a rabbit in the headlights because your H was being scary and she wasn't expecting it. Maybe next week will be illuminating.

Yes, she did look scared to be honest. She said at the end of the session that we always make her sweat - which surprised me because surely she’s used to dealing with conflict?! But maybe it’s indicative of how she experiences him when he gets angry.

To comment on this rationally rather than just with a rude word or two ... some people react to stress by crying, some react to stress by snapping. Within limits, both are normal human reactions. You don't sound like you're crying an abnormal amount for this level of stress (I would guess you're quite reserved?). His temper, on the other hand, sounds like it goes well beyond acceptable limits.

Yes, absolutely. The problem with him is that when he is short and/or snaps, he has this really horribly angry (and actually quite aggressive) look on his face. And that’s just how his face is (he’s a bit of a ‘resting grump face’ kind of person, so when he’s actually irritated he looks far worse!) and I’ve never gotten used to that. So while I accept he is allowed to be grumpy and snap now and then, the experience is always more unpleasant than it should be. But no, I definitely am not wailing over things! At absolute most, my eyes water a bit and my voice wobbles slightly. This absolutely infuriates him and always makes him even more angry.

So you are pathetic if you can't 'handle' him snapping at you?

But if he can't handle you minding it and crying about it, he's not pathetic?

Is it only your emotions and reactions that are invalid?

Yes, all of his reactions come down to the fact that he is dealing with incredible hurt and anxiety over what I did. But any of my reactions are pathetic or dramatic or focussing on the negatives… Grin

To those who said that you do not call someone you love ‘pathetic’ - I agree. I would absolutely never say anything like that to him (or anyone else), and he would find it deeply hurtful if I did. But after everything, that is really water off a duck’s back for me.

I think I'm desperately trying to discern who is right and wrong in each of our discussions to verify my feelings
Is this what you mean by clarity? Working out whether you are "right"?
Or does/could clarity mean something else?

I think the discernment around who is right and wrong feeds into whether my feelings are/should be valid, which in turn would help me get some clarity on what my next step/decision should be. If I could finally listen to my feelings, without all of the doubts and confusion flying around, then I think the clarity would follow, as least as far as it is able to.

however, I have a feeling OP that you just can't take the idea seriously. It's brewing in you, but it needs more time, and only you know how long you consider "sensible." It might never come to anything. Or it might, in another 10 years' time, or perhaps later still, e.g. when your daughter has left home. Or maybe never!

@alcemeg, this really does feel like I’m staring down a black hole imagining wasting 10 years of my life like this (unless, miraculously, the love does reappear!). It’s not that things would be terrible all of the time or even that often, I think things could be content or fine for a large chunk. But disputes would rear their head now and then and I’d always think I wish I’d drawn the line under it when I had the chance. And I know that (maybe that is my clarity?!), yet it’s still not enough to push me to act....yet!

@cavagirl, I’ve been reluctant to mention this on here, but since you have asked…! I have stopped my individual therapy I’m afraid. Partly because I felt like she couldn’t help me any further (she seemed to have ran out of things to explore with me…) but also partly because my husband had been talking a lot about how he thought my therapy wasn’t helping me and it was making me focus on the negative history, and he wanted me to be positive with him about the future. It was causing issues with him and I took the conscious decision to sacrifice the therapy to try and maximise the ‘calm’ from him. He did say he didn’t want me to stop if I felt it was helping me, but I still felt very pressured and in the end continuing with it just wasn’t worth the hassle. Sad

In terms of what ‘having clarity’ actually means – I suppose it’s feeling strong and certain enough in my decision to be able to see it through, with everything that it brings, knowing that I am not acting rashly.

Out of interest - given all you've said lately about wishing you'd started to tackle your H's behaviour prior to your affair, and knowing deep down your marriage wouldn't last for life - did your feel the same level of clarity you're aspiring to in order to leave at the point at which you married? Did you have that level of clarity that marrying him was the right thing for you?

I am probably being a bit dense but I don’t follow the rationale of this question and feel like I’m about to fall into a trap in answering Grin. I think I had clarity that I knew he had a side I didn’t like, but I thought that I could handle it and, when balancing everything up, I still wanted to marry him. Obviously the side I disliked became more prevalent and more toxic, and now I’ve seen that (and also after seeing what a healthy relationship would look like) I’m not happy to go back to a ‘balancing everything up’ kind of arrangement in deciding whether to stay…not sure if that makes sense or not!

I am pretty sure that his "fairness" involves presenting your side too, perhaps with a little hint of a sneer, just enough for you to remember that your [actually, to us, intelligent and sensible] rational arguments, and your [actually, to us, 100% valid] feelings, are nothing but bum fluff. Then he weighs in with the stuff that really matters (his logic, his feelings).

Hmm, yes…I do sometimes sit listening to him explain my side, and he says it so logically and calmly that I feel like my reaction or interpretation of whatever he is describing was over the top. It actually almost sometimes feels like I’m his child or toy, that he is dictating the storyline to (and that feels grossly unfair to say, as I know from his perspective he will be trying to be fair in his presentation, but it does make me feel like that).

@iknowimcoming – thanks for delurking! Grin yes, I agree a trial separation would be what is really needed here. Unfortunately when I’ve suggested it previously he’s said he doesn’t see how it would help things, plus he’d be unwilling to move out (and I am also unwilling to do that as I will not leave my daughter for more than one night). So we never get anywhere with those discussions.

Thank you everyone for sticking with me...I know I am incredibly frustrating and behaving like I'm not listening to any of you at all. But honestly, you are really helping me wade through this! Flowers

OP posts:
helplesshopeless · 18/06/2021 14:52

Yes quite iknow. Although I think it's a very good sign helpless has stopped apologising for being frustrating to us. I'm taking that as an indication she's starting to see her happiness and wellbeing as important. I hope so.

Ohh, @QuentinBunbury, I posted my post and then saw your above comment....should I apologise for apologising for being frustrating? Grin ha! I'm sorry for saying sorry...it did make me laugh though!

OP posts:
helplesshopeless · 18/06/2021 14:53

I think I just apologise because I know you are all putting so much effort and energy into supporting me, and I don't want to keep dragging you down with the time it's taking me to process everything!

OP posts:
QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 14:56
Flowers Made me laugh too at the cross post Grin Don't worry about us. We're on the Internet and can walk away if we want. I just know how lonely I felt when I was going through it so if I can help you feel a bit understood then I will
helplesshopeless · 18/06/2021 14:59

Thank you @QuentinBunbury Thanks

OP posts:
QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 14:59

Also I think its clear all of us who've been through similar know it takes ages. Unfortunately in those relationships we've been "trained" to resolve things as quickly as possible and move on, even if it's not OK. So it feels uncomfortable and guilt inducing to take as long as it takes to sort this out properly. But really, let any guilt go. It's totally natural this would take ages. It's difficult and complicated. You are doing really well to be doing what you are.

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 15:04

I have stopped my individual therapy I’m afraid ... partly because my husband had been talking a lot about how he thought my therapy wasn’t helping me and it was making me focus on the negative history, and he wanted me to be positive with him about the future. It was causing issues with him and I took the conscious decision to sacrifice the therapy to try and maximise the ‘calm’ from him.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

aaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flowers
helplesshopeless · 18/06/2021 15:05

🙈🙈🙈

OP posts:
Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 15:06

Sorry, posted in anguished haste 😋

The above is related to this:
It actually almost sometimes feels like I’m his child or toy, that he is dictating the storyline to

... and then you dismiss this perfectly rational, sensible observation as "unfair"

Pashazade · 18/06/2021 15:29

I'm afraid my internal response to the fact that you've stopped personal counselling because it makes him unhappy was the same as Alcemeg's. He just doesn't give a damn about you. He's not interested in why you weren't happy and isn't interested in you finding a way to be happy now. His only interest is you being sufficiently subservient for the rest of your life to make him happy. That is his only goal, your daughter is in for a very rough ride when she becomes a teenager should you stay. He's making it abundantly clear he dislikes women who have desires and thoughts of their own. You will be teaching your daughter that she cannot have desires and wishes of your own, she will repeat this in her own relationships, and so the cycle of abuse will continue.

ravenmum · 18/06/2021 15:43

I have stopped my individual therapy because my husband is a controlling, manipulative swine (paraphrased)

Is it really awful if a little voice in the back of my head is saying that this has to be an incredibly dedicated troll dropping in little tidbits from his well-thumbed copy of the Book of Classic Abuse at regular intervals to see quite how invested we can get, or how upset when he gets to the next chapter?

It's a really hopeful little voice! Maybe it's all just made up!

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 16:05

@ravenmum

I have stopped my individual therapy because my husband is a controlling, manipulative swine (paraphrased)

Is it really awful if a little voice in the back of my head is saying that this has to be an incredibly dedicated troll dropping in little tidbits from his well-thumbed copy of the Book of Classic Abuse at regular intervals to see quite how invested we can get, or how upset when he gets to the next chapter?

It's a really hopeful little voice! Maybe it's all just made up!

Yesssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!! 🎈🌺🤪🥳🤡👹🤓💩😺

Well, it certainly could be. Or it might be real. I increasingly hope not! 😁

helplesshopeless · 18/06/2021 16:08

I can't tell if you're both joking or not 🤦‍♀️ I'm definitely not a troll!! I know that is also what a troll would say... 😬

OP posts:
Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 16:17

@helplesshopeless

I can't tell if you're both joking or not 🤦‍♀️ I'm definitely not a troll!! I know that is also what a troll would say... 😬
It's OK, OP, just pulling your leg. It's just that it does sometimes feel like you're pulling mine 😉 but then I just have to remember, it's a totally different world in a relationship like that. I do get it! It's been a while, that's all... Sorry.

I think the discernment around who is right and wrong feeds into whether my feelings are/should be valid, which in turn would help me get some clarity on what my next step/decision should be. If I could finally listen to my feelings, without all of the doubts and confusion flying around, then I think the clarity would follow, as least as far as it is able to.
Actually, you are really making progress. What you wrote there is absolutely spot on Flowers

Whatdirection · 18/06/2021 16:22

Please Op,

Try again with another therapist.

You don’t always find a good fit first time.

I am happy to pm you details of mine ( who is a counsellor rather than a therapist) who l think is very good. She does all her sessions over Zoom.

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 16:24

I think they are trying to say that what you are going through is very distressing to think about, so it's almost comforting to think it could be made up, not that it is made up

Mix56 · 18/06/2021 16:28

Yes indeed. It's unbelievable. He persuaded you give up your own private therapy? So was he listening in ? Or were you obliged to give him a blow by blow account afterwards?
Why ?
Your Private therapy is like your Private shower, he should fuck right off.

He thought my therapy wasn’t helping me ,
should read "
He thought my therapy wasn’t helping Him"

AMSA · 18/06/2021 16:30

Hello all and particularly @helplesshopeless,

I have been following this thread (and the original) for days, I guess that makes me a lurker... I recognise much of your behaviour and dynamic, it was prevalent in the environment I grew up in (single mother with Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and although I am lucky enough that my H is not at the same level as yours I have and continue to work hard to manage my instincts to soothe, lighten, calm and neutralise any behaviour that I deem confrontational aka unsafe. It triggers my flight mode which for me is emotionally withdrawing and pacifying - it is an ingrained habit I am eager and having some success in breaking.

The reason however I broke my lurker status is because of your last post. I had to express this to you: It is all on his terms and no growth individually or collectively can come from that aka no progress for you both together.

I am (maybe incorrectly) assuming your H has the same challenge as mine, guilt and shame over his behaviour triggers aggression (not physical). It makes him uncomfortable to the point of verbally lashing out, in my H's case it can be tone of voice, dark clouds, sarcasm/facial expressions rather than choice of words which seems to be in your H's arsenal.

This all makes speaking up hard, especially if you are fighting the instinct to supress your own feelings and neutralise and yet without speaking. As I have learnt, resentment and permanent emotional withdrawal are a strong and permanent possibility if you do not change the part you play in that particular dynamic.

Forgive me if this is rambling... but this is what I have gathered from your posts:
He gets angry if you address something which previously you endured and now, for the sake of trying to create a healthy relationship, you (bravely) speak up about.
He is possibly incapable of appreciating how much that 'costs' you each time, the obsessive assessing of your own rationale and what it may provoke.
He wants your affection both physical and verbal yet refuses to compromise on the fact you are clearly asking for space in order to even attempt get to that place authentically.
He sees this relationship as either working (to his standards and expectations) or it's divorce.

As many wise posters here have said, separation is a legitimate and effective step in trying to salvage a relationship but that is not on the table for him as he will not work with you to make that a possibility.
He encouraged you, successfully, to give up your own therapy as the necessary work it brings up makes him uncomfortable and yet he is frustrated by your inaction and lack of clarity - a clear sign that you would benefit from therapy.

So it is all on his terms and nothing balanced or healthy let alone love comes from that.

Luckily my H and I have been able to learn to communicate considerably better and although I still have a lot of emotional walls to bring down (some related to him and past disappointments, some to my toxic upbringing) I do know he is open to any conversation I bring to him, the conversations can be hard, really challenging for both of us (and often exhausting) to push through our emotional habits but we speak about that openly and honestly in the moment. It makes me feel we are working towards the same goal.

I really feel for you, it is so hard to act for yourself when you have developed the very opposite in habits let alone with the unknown of what leaving this marriage and changing your daughter's life entails.

I thought @QuentinBunbury's suggestion to write a visualisation of what your life could be as just you and daughter was a brilliant one and one that could diminish many of the shadows of fear and the unknown from holding you back.

Sending you strength x

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 16:38

@QuentinBunbury

I think they are trying to say that what you are going through is very distressing to think about, so it's almost comforting to think it could be made up, not that it is made up
Thanks @QuentinBunbury, yes that is how I meant it 😊

OP, I suspect a lot of us probably share a similar fantasy... (and no, I don't mean the Jane Austen wedding one!!!)... where we burst into your home and grab your and DD by the scruff, load you into a fast getaway vehicle that's ready outside with the motor running, and FORCE you to spend a few weeks of freedom out in a world where Derek can't bully and control you. We can eat Cake and drink 🍾 and be merry, and I reckon within a surprisingly short amount of time (weeks? days? hours?!) you'd get the clarity you're so desperate for!!! Flowers

I keep wondering to myself if at some point in future, when potentially in a healthy relationship with someone else, I’ll look back at this time and realise how badly I’ve been treated.
Yes, yes you will.

As at this point, I just accept him getting angry because my eyes watered a bit/accept him saying he thought it was pathetic. That is all fairly mild and inoffensive stuff from him. I keep switching between accepting that, but then also standing back and remembering that Michelin star meal I wanted and mentioned in the first thread (i.e. the super high standards that he wont ever meet).
It's not a Michelin star meal.
You are grabbing crumbs under the table and you think a McDonalds is the very height of luxury 🍟🍿🍔

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 16:44

Yeah quite. Him insulting you is not acceptable and it's going to upset you.
My current DP can be quite argumentative and opinionated, so am I. As a result we do often debatw, bicker and argue. He NEVER EVER insults me personally. And he always apologises if he upsets me. I do the same to him.
Contrast with my exH where we argued a lot less but if we did he'd insult me or say cruel things. I couldn't be myself in that situation because I was scared of what he'd come out with and because he'd blame me for saying those things.

If your husband thinks you are pathetic, he doesn't love or respect you. If he just said you are pathetic to hurt you, he doesn't love or respect you. There's no reason to talk to someone you love like that.

Cavagirl · 18/06/2021 17:12

Oh OP Sad

In terms of what ‘having clarity’ actually means – I suppose it’s feeling strong and certain enough in my decision to be able to see it through, with everything that it brings, knowing that I am not acting rashly

OK - I would not actually describe this as having clarity at all. Actually I think what you've just described is "having the confidence to follow through on my own decisions". That's quite different to having clarity, in fact. I think you need to reframe your thinking about what is preventing you from acting - it's not actually that you are lacking enough information to feel that leaving is the right course of action. It's that you doubt the validity of your feelings so much you feel unable to act. So from your earlier post it's not
I don't see how I can act before I have clarity it's
I don't see how I can act before I have enough confidence in myself to do so
And that is what your therapist should have been tackling with you.

I am probably being a bit dense but I don’t follow the rationale of this question and feel like I’m about to fall into a trap in answering grin. I think I had clarity that I knew he had a side I didn’t like, but I thought that I could handle it and, when balancing everything up, I still wanted to marry him. Obviously the side I disliked became more prevalent and more toxic, and now I’ve seen that (and also after seeing what a healthy relationship would look like) I’m not happy to go back to a ‘balancing everything up’ kind of arrangement in deciding whether to stay…not sure if that makes sense or not!

I think it's really interesting your first reaction was that this might be some kind of trap! Was it because of @Alcemeg's gold star (Grin thanks!)? What could the trap be? Were you worried you might give an answer that would allow us to "prove" you should leave and you're not ready for that yet, I wonder?

I'll rephrase.

You're here stuck because of lack of clarity confidence in your own ability to make decisions to leave. There is a standard of certainty you feel obliged to meet before you're "allowed" to leave him.

When you married him, did you feel the same certainty that doing so was the right thing? Did it meet the same standard of certainty you now require of yourself in order to leave?

You say that balancing everything up you decided that marrying him was the right thing to do.

So, now, balancing everything up, is it the right thing to stay, or to leave?

If "on balance" isn't enough for you to decide this, why not, when it was last time?

loveyourself2020 · 18/06/2021 17:36

@Alcemeg
OP, I suspect a lot of us probably share a similar fantasy... (and no, I don't mean the Jane Austen wedding one!!!)... where we burst into your home and grab your and DD by the scruff, load you into a fast getaway vehicle that's ready outside with the motor running, and FORCE you to spend a few weeks of freedom out in a world where Derek can't bully and control you. We can eat and drink and be merry, and I reckon within a surprisingly short amount of time (weeks? days? hours?!) you'd get the clarity you're so desperate for!!

Yes, yes, yes !!!!!! exactly how I feel every time I read @helplesshopeless posts. I want to go and rescue her. OP, individual counseling is single most important thing for you right now. Please, please, believe me, when I say it. I know what you mean when you say that you need “clarity”. This was me, last year in January. I knew I was hurt and pissed and angry but did not know what to do with it and how to act. Then I started counseling and after 4-5 session I got “clarity”, I knew exactly what I wanted and what I did not want. The counselor helped me recognize and label my STBX behavior as well as my feelings, and I soon realized two things, one, I do not think he can ever change as what bothers me is part of who he is and two, I do not want to work on it, as I am tired and spent and all I need is some peace and quiet. Actually I realized three things, last being, I do not have to find the excuse/reason why I want to leave my marriage, the fact that I want to is enough. Your husband does not want you to have individual counselling because he cannot control it like he is controlling the couples one (btw I think you should drop couples counselling all together. I think that the woman is useless).

We all love you, OP, honest to God, we have never met you but we love you. You seem to be such an amazing person, carrying and loving, gentle and kind. However, please forgive me, but I do get frustrated sometimes reading your posts, they feel sometimes like you are hypnotized, like you are in some kind of trance. While you clearly want to get clarity and answers to your questions about your marriage and your future, you are not doing anything much to help yourself, in fact, all you do is help and soothe your husband. You keep doing what he asks you to do, avoiding things that will make him upset, you keep excusing his behavior every time, even if you “complain” about it the next sentence will be excusing it. You have to stop thinking of him and focus on you. You will never get to the bottom of this if all you think about is what he thinks and feels.

You are allowed to have your own feelings (just like he is allowed to have his).
You are allowed to do what you want when you want it (just like he is).
You are not responsible for his feelings (just like his is not responsible for yours).
You are allowed to seek therapy (just like he is if he wishes).
You are allowed to be true to yourself (just like he is).

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 18:13

@Cavagirl
OK - I would not actually describe this as having clarity at all. Actually I think what you've just described is "having the confidence to follow through on my own decisions". That's quite different to having clarity, in fact. I think you need to reframe your thinking about what is preventing you from acting - it's not actually that you are lacking enough information to feel that leaving is the right course of action. It's that you doubt the validity of your feelings so much you feel unable to act.
Very true. I think the trouble is, in this kind of relationship, you can never feel confident in the validity of your feelings, because they are never validated outside yourself (except here on MN). Loyalty to our "Dereks" prevents further field testing, and Derek himself is not inclined to give any weight to our thoughts and feelings because he knows perfectly well where that leads.

With my now-DH, I remember the first time I had a bone to pick with him. Based on a lifetime's experience, as @AMSA mentions, I was hyperanxious about raising it with him, worried about what it might provoke. It takes a lot of guts to even mention negative things, when you've had a lifetime of finding out that this lifts the lid on Pandora's box and all hell lets loose. But I dared to say something, and imagine my surprise when his response was "OK, that's fair. I've been an asshole. Sorry." Job done (especially as lesson taken on board, instantly, without qualms, for ever -- no need to repeat ad nauseam)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was incredulous! He never, ever questions or undermines how I feel, because... that's how I feel! and it counts... it weighs heavier than feathers, heavier than lead, heavier than logic.

@loveyourself2020
I do get frustrated sometimes reading your posts, they feel sometimes like you are hypnotized, like you are in some kind of trance
Unfortunately, that is exactly how it is, being in this kind of relationship. I mentioned a while back how it's like finding your way out of a maze when drugged. It's enormously difficult to hang onto your own reality when the person closest to you negates it constantly.

This is why we need that getaway car scenario with a secret cave to stash OP away in and fill her with cake and merriment until the fog clears. 💗

loveyourself2020 · 18/06/2021 18:28

This is why we need that getaway car scenario with a secret cave to stash OP away in and fill her with cake and merriment until the fog clears.

hear! hear!

AMSA · 18/06/2021 19:05

Another exercise which a therapist recommended to me and which may prove useful to you @helplesshopeless is to write put all that you would like to say to your H, you don't need to give it to him but what would you say if you could, if nothing was holding you back or causing you fear to hold back.
By allowing yourself to express everything you may find that clarity or even a way of communicating with him that serves you. You also may find it is not so bad a truth as to share with him.
Sometimes we think our muddled thoughts must be too awful to share, that they must be like sticks of dynamite but when you get them out in front of you you often see they aren't so combative.

I wonder what would be so awful about telling him much what you have said here: that after so many years of what has been an unhealthy dynamic for you that you feel disconnected to the love you once felt for him. You very much want to connect with feeling love for both your sakes and for your daughter, to show her a healthy happy relationship but right now you feel too disconnected to make that a reality and cannot even guarantee it will become one. Put the dilemma to him and see what his suggestion may be. To be clear I am not advising you to give him the power or control but to share with him where you are at and either you discover you can work together and try together or the fear of the lack of control in change and growth is too overpowering for him and you may realise you have outgrown him...

If he knows that you are hoping for the same outcome, your intentions are the same, he may give you the space you need - quite desperately too. Reassurance doesn't have to be in physical or verbal affection, it can be in acknowledgement and balanced respect of the other and in a shared intention.

The other thing I wanted to share was that nothing is forever. If you seperated, divorced even, there is nothing to say that growth from that experience individually won't strengthen whatever form of relationship you have down the line.

Your only responsibility is to your own happiness and your daughter of course but you can only fulfill your responsibility to her if you have taken responsibility for your happiness as from that everything flows.