Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

I'm going to stick my two pennyworth's in here .Clumsy and misguided it may be but it's aimed at supporting helpless.

I think the OP should seperate .I think her husband isn't able to be loving or even kind .And I agree the OP is not responsible for her husband's feelings .I could well be misunderstanding but to me some posts almost expect the OP to give no weight to his feelings and to blank them out when considering her future .Surely this is unrealistic.?And may make the OP even more stuck .

The OP is clearly a thoughtful and caring human being and as such of course when she is going through life and making decisions she will factor in other people's feelings and wishes.She has lived with this man for years ,felt enough of a connection to have a child with him -she can't just obliterate all that .

I'm just worried that putting the emphasis on ranking the importance of her feelings v.his feelings is not going to help her resolve her situation .

I can only offer that she accepts the status quo that we all have wishes and feelings but that sometimes there is a conflict in trying to accommodate a self centred and selfish person's feelings .That the accommodation will be harmful and non productive for both parties .

I think the OP's husband is trying to learn about himself and change his behaviour .I'm doubtful if he will be able to alter the fundamentals of what he wants and how he wishes his wife to be .I also think it's come too late and the gulf is too big to be bridged . And that there's little point in prolonging the struggle .

I don't know if any of this makes sense - probably coloured a bit too much by my personal circumstances!

Yes I think you are probably right peridito
Ultimately OP needs to detach from H feelings but that's really hard to do when it's your husband

@peridito I could well be misunderstanding but to me some posts almost expect the OP to give no weight to his feelings and to blank them out when considering her future .Surely this is unrealistic.?And may make the OP even more stuck

I think one of my posts might be what you're referring to here and you're right when I read it back I grimaced a bit because it could be read in a different way to that which I intended so I think you're spot on with what you say above, it's not helpful for OP to feel like she needs to get into a ranking/prioritisation session with him vs her.

The point I was attempting to make (badly!) was that in trying to tease out her true feelings and thoughts, OP should be focusing on herself & DD, not him. Because already we hear so much of his voice in what she should think "I can't believe you want to throw all this away" etc etc that she somehow needs to put that to one side and listen to herself. But at lot of what we read at the moment seems to be him attempting to tell her what to think, how to feel. He's even told her that her therapy is not helpful to her, so she's stopped. PP have been totally correct in likening his behaviour to a judge with her on trial, Jiminy Cricket on her shoulder... he seems to be the ultimate authority on all. And he's not, she is his equal, but unfortunately neither of them believe that at this point.

And I agree with you that, for OP to be able to blot out the noise and listen to herself, most likely at this point it's a separation.

Cava I've just reread some posts and I think I am misreading a lot .

This from Alcemeg is v clear

OP But I don't see how I'd factor in my feelings, as to do that I'd have to place them at the top of the list of importance for it to make any difference to the way the scales tip!

Alcemeg Not necessarily at the top. But included somewhere in the mix, instead of left out completely. Weighing more than feathers

so not proposing ranking

The trouble is that feelings are very fluid. And because OP has been with a bully for so long, the lure of calmer and more peaceful times now must be overwhelming.

Things have been so unsettled and stressful recently, my husband has been so volatile after learning of the affair, that I haven't been able to relax at all (until the last week or so when he's been generally calmer). And so I really do value it when we have a calm atmosphere and I can almost have a moment to breathe and think, rather than reacting to a situation or mood.

The underlined bits are very telling. @helplesshopeless, I think it might help for you to read through all your posts from the beginning. He's always been volatile and unpleasant.

From week to week, you talk about things being so much better. And yet from week to week, you’re still brushing things under the carpet. Presumably because (a) they’re nowhere near as bad as you’re used to things getting and (b) you deserve whatever comes to you, you trollop!

If I'm overall ok, coping with the (much reduced and now only occasional) unpleasantness, enjoying family times, is it enough that I have a little voice saying 'I want more/better than this from a husband'?

Occasional kind gestures mean a lot, and at the moment there’s just enough niceness to keep you going, isn’t there. Derek can wave an authoritative hand over his empire and declare, “You can’t possibly give up all this ” … not unless you persist in your perverse silliness. Nothing’s that bad that you’d give up the stability you have, not knowing what might come next. You'd have to be completely bonkers to do that.

I once read that going sane feels the same as going insane. It's the same loss of familiar reference points and having to recalibrate what's up and what's down.

Hand on heart, not just me but (as far as I can see) all the other PPs, however tentative we'd normally be, can see beyond any shadow of a doubt (CAMPFIRE CHUMS, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM EXAGGERATING HERE) that your quality of life would improve tremendously without him. But you will only understand this if you somehow manage to get out and away from his controlling influence. Don’t take my word for it, please talk to your parents about this.

I know my feelings are very strong when we're in the middle of a storm, but they're much quieter when things are settled.

What makes your current situation so alluring is that you are both, for once, declaring your commitment to establishing calm. It’s what you’ve always longed for, and at last he seems to be on board with it! But you know perfectly well that Derek’s default setting is stormy. He still can’t help the occasional “outbursts” now and then, but he now has even more excuse (the affair) to blame them all on you as usual.

You will do everything you can to make him feel safe and loved. Unfortunately, once he feels more secure, he is bound to revert to his true nature. So all your efforts to create a peaceful new world together will always be interrupted by storms. It’s just the way he is, unfortunately, and you know it. You've known it for a long time. You'd never have had that affair if you hadn't, at some deep level, already given up on him as a lost cause, however much pity and sorrow you feel on his behalf.

I really do value it when we have a calm atmosphere
Your best chance of achieving a calmer world is to limit the involvement of someone who will constantly disrupt it.

Re the bright future with OM:
Yes, we absolutely could, I know we could. It just feels like that is so out of reach at the moment I don't even dare to think about it.
It’s only out of reach because Derek says so.

Oh no! I always do this. An afterthought:

In this situation, all your virtues become disadvantages, OP.

Your tendency to hope for the best, see the good in someone, look on the bright side. These are wonderful qualities, but they are probably working against you.

Abusive relationships taught me (eventually!) to be very careful who I'm with. Some people just take advantage of kindness.

“ You will do everything you can to make him feel safe and loved. Unfortunately, once he feels more secure, he is bound to revert to his true nature. So all your efforts to create a peaceful new world together will always be interrupted by storms.” @Alcemeg this is such a bloody good point. It’s actually really tragic to think that the OP’s aim of making everything calm and happy for her husband will be the very thing that “allows” him to get back to his normal business of raging and snarling at her.

Thanks @FoxgloveSummers 😊

I'm waiting for all the voices saying I've overstepped the mark by saying that OP is better off without him.

Come on, all you lurkers out there! A chorus of protest saying she should stay. Anyone?

I mostly lurk and I agree with you that OP should leave. I’ve felt for a long time that she feels she has to atone for her sins and staying with her husband is her punishment and penance. For the rest of her life?

OP your husband sounds horrendous and while he may have made some steps to curb and moderate his behaviour I genuinely believe people can’t undertake a full personality transplant. His nastiness will re-emerge in time. And I really didn’t like the way he has encouraged you to ditch the individual counselling to starve you of an outlet and sounding board.

I will say though it is easy for us to be keyboard warriors and to encourage you to leave, but it will take a great deal of bravery and strength to do so and it will be you doing it not us. Good luck 💐

Anyway, back to lurking.

I think hopeless has tried hard enough for long enough to know that she should leave .

IMO Honesty is the best policy when things are unclear .

@KatherineSiena
I will say though it is easy for us to be keyboard warriors and to encourage you to leave, but it will take a great deal of bravery and strength to do so and it will be you doing it not us.

Oh God, yes.

Sorry OP if you feel like a fox with the hounds closing in on you here!

@Alcemeg

I'm waiting for all the voices saying I've overstepped the mark by saying that OP is better off without him.

I don't think you have. And you are not the only person saying it.

Even @helplesshopeless knows deep down that she is better off without him. BUT - she doesn't feel entitled to choose what is best for her.

And she is too frightened to take that step, because she knows very well that he will make sure that if she dares to either end it, or push him to end it by not committing in the way he wants and in his timeframe, he will make damn sure it's as difficult for her as possible. And he will (as he is already doing) ramp up the guilt.

Ending her therapy because of his stated belief that it wasn't helping her, means there is a long way to go.

Sorry @helplesshopeless to talk about you in the third person! I'm sure you could pick up your individual therapy again if on reflection you believe it was helping you. If it makes him nervous, he'll have to deal with those feelings.

Ending her therapy because of his stated belief that it wasn't helping her, means there is a long way to go.

Reposting this sentence because the emphasis didn't seem clear enough.

@FantasticButtocks
I don't think you have. And you are not the only person saying it.

I was just trying to respond categorically to OP's
is it enough that I have a little voice saying...
because there is so much self-doubt there.

Ending her therapy because of his stated belief that it wasn't helping her, means there is a long way to go.
Yes, and there is no rush. You can't rush or skip these things. There's only one way through it, and that's through— not up, over or round, unfortunately.

@Alcemeg

Thanks *@FoxgloveSummers* 😊

I'm waiting for all the voices saying I've overstepped the mark by saying that OP is better off without him.

Come on, all you lurkers out there! A chorus of protest saying she should stay. Anyone?

I’ll bite. OP should stay. It’s clear she values the happiness of her husband and daughter above her own. It’s clear she doesn’t believe her happiness is important. OP is clearly a very caring and empathetic individual who realizes the happiness of others should always supersede her own. This is how most relationships work… you want to be happy but you also concede to the needs of your partner and realize compromises in a relationship are needed/ important.

My only question to OP is … what is your husband doing to maximize your happiness/ what is he sacrificing? Because you are sacrificing so much for him…

Alcemeg. I'm not sure any one person thinks she should stay. The very minimum is a trial separation. Which hopefully be made permanent when OP can go to work, drinks, speak to who ever she pleases, & realises how pleasant life is outside in the his gilded prison

Typos... outside his gilded prison. Obvs.

Looking in from the outside, having read all of her heart breaking, devastating posts on how her life, her thoughts, her self worth, her personal space and freedom has been quite frankly violated by this very problematic man, it is an total non brainer to me that a separation is the only valid next step.

But l also feel, the Op has to be in control of when she does it and how she does it. Because it will be hard. Because she is so lovely. Also even when she does (hopefully) leave, Derek’s sway and influence will still be there and as most of us know here on this thread, having been involved with difficult men, that our bond with them doesn’t end with us skipping out of the door like Julie Andrews, never to look back.

So we can support, advise and encourage her as much as possible but we are all leading our lives well away from her. Only helplesshopeless can make the call, only she knows the practical in’s and out’s of her life. She is going through a process and l feel she is still a bit of a way from reaching a point of no return.

I'd be nervous to bring up with my husband that I'd like to start again
Do you have to mention it?
Have you told him you're discussing it with a load of Internet randoms? He has no idea what evil influences you are subject to, it won't hurt him not to know about that either.
For him, successful therapy would make you more docile and compliant. But good therapy will not make you docile and compliant.

I'm waiting for all the voices saying I've overstepped the mark by saying that OP is better off without him.
Hm, potentially, in that OP is so afraid to be disloyal, even secretly (even in her thoughts) that she is more likely to dismiss what we say as excessive or unreasonable, and ignore our advice, if we openly suggest she should leave.

@Whatdirection and @ravenmum
So we can support, advise and encourage her as much as possible but we are all leading our lives well away from her.
and
OP is so afraid to be disloyal, even secretly (even in her thoughts) that she is more likely to dismiss what we say as excessive or unreasonable, and ignore our advice, if we openly suggest she should leave.

Very true.

I'm really sorry @helplesshopeless if I have just become yet another strident voice telling you what to think / feel / do. I hope I haven't turned into a Dereka! My only intention was to validate your tiny, almost imperceptible core feeling, to let you know that you are not being at all silly or overreacting when you acknowledge a little whisper of a voice doubting the situation. I threw it open to the other thread readers so that you can see for yourself how strongly you are supported in that. (Although obviously, by tomorrow morning there could be loads of people telling you to stay!!! -- and I'll just fetch my coat 😎)

What, if anything, you do about it is of course your business alone. Acting on it would not be easy, to put it mildly, it would be a horrible bloody mess. The only nice bit would be when OM shouts me a drink at your wedding reception.

You might choose never to take action. Or you might, sooner or later. The funny thing is that change seems to have its own timescale, and just be warned that if and when it finally happens you will doubt everything all over again because it will seem to have come very suddenly out of the blue. If that ever happens, just try to remember how long this has been fermenting (for want of a better word!) and fermentation requires certain conditions, it doesn't just happen randomly for no reason.

Many apologies for posting so often on this thread. I hope it hasn't come across like impatience to boss you around. I've been working at my desk all weekend and the temptation to hop on here now and then to read everyone's fascinating comments has got the better of me, plus I never know when to shut up. 🤨

Hello all, I only have a quick second but I thought I'd better drop in to let you know I haven't been scared away by the strident voices of the Dereka clan 🤪

@Alcemeg please don't apologise for posting so much, I really value all of your posts and everyone else's!

I'll try to post properly tomo, but I had a sudden realisation today that I see Derek as a friend only, and for some reason that slight re-framing seems to have made a big difference to my fretting and doubting mindset. Will see how long that lasts though!!

Hope you've all had a relaxing weekend

Bloody hell, if you view him as a friend, I'd hate to hear how enemies treat you

@helplesshopeless

Hello all, I only have a quick second but I thought I'd better drop in to let you know I haven't been scared away by the strident voices of the Dereka clan 🤪

@Alcemeg please don't apologise for posting so much, I really value all of your posts and everyone else's!

I'll try to post properly tomo, but I had a sudden realisation today that I see Derek as a friend only, and for some reason that slight re-framing seems to have made a big difference to my fretting and doubting mindset. Will see how long that lasts though!!

Hope you've all had a relaxing weekend

That seems like a positive mental shift for you.

Now, from that new mindset, when you think of other friends you have, what kind of behaviour do you receive and accept from them? Anything similar? Or would that be really shocking? Do any of them behave badly towards you if you won't do what they want?

Very pleased for you that you've had this revelation

@FantasticButtocks I would definitely have distanced myself from any friend that behaved like he did a long time ago!

I think the reason it's helped me to reframe as a friend is because I do enjoy spending time with him when he is making an effort and in a good mood. This is pretty much most of the time now he is trying to be a better person (was very rare previously!). And as mentioned before I do value having fun as a family. So feeling that feeling was muddling me up because I thought that should be enough for me and maybe that was all i could expect anyway. But realising that I experience the same with my friends and that doesn't mean I would marry them, has kind of released me from the obligation to settle for that. Not sure if that makes any sense!

And the brief respite from the tension is such a relief it drowns out your little voice saying 'I want more/better than this from a husband. You then start second guessing yourself and get sucked back in to thinking the calm might last. But I think the consensus is it won't.

I hadn't thought about it like that, it is very likely partly due to the break from the tension that I'm unwilling to listen to anything else. Any sign of the tension coming back completely freezes me now.

Last night out of the blue he asked me if I had anything I wanted to tell him, negative or positive, and he had a very slight edge to his voice and I completely froze and panicked and went back into survival mode. Which I feel bad about now as he was probably just wondering how things were from my perspective at the moment after a pleasant few days, and hoping I had some nice to say, and I was unable to say anything that might rock the boat 

@wrigglewriggles thank you for your message, you're right I am scared to make the call. Partly because of how he'll be, but actually increasingly because I can't bare the level of hurt I'll be causing him, I just keep thinking that in the space of about 4 months his whole world has basically fallen apart, out of the blue from his perspective, and I'm just really so sad for him. When he's sad I just want to make it better for him 

You do realise this applies to pretty much every small piece of autonomy you try to snatch for yourself? He makes it so difficult - therapy, bench, a night out with friends, work, and on and on - that it's not worth the hassle. He's ground you down and down so you don't even know how to include your own wishes on a list of pros and cons for how you want to live your life

Yes!!! That's so insightful, so true yet it hadn't occurred to me before. Things like seeing friends, having them visit etc, especially when our daughter was younger, just wasn't worth the hassle and so I became quite a flaky friend for a while as a result. I do constantly drop or rearrange my proposed plans if he shows the slightest sign of being put out by them - half the time now probably it's more me anticipating his reaction rather than him doing much wrong, but it's hard to undo that habit after a while.

I'm so gutted for you OP, you have a voice and it deserves to be heard -- firstly and most importantly, by yourself.
I think this might be part of the problem, @helplesshopeless? Your voice is drowned out so much by all the white noise generated by Derek's demands and feelings, you don't even know what you feel or want any more.

I suppose to take it one step further as well, my own well-being is measured and determined by his feelings, to the extent that I am struggling to do something that upsets him because of the resulting impact on me. So in addition to not knowing that I want independently, even if I do quietly know it, I can't act on it because of the impact of upsetting him. Which I suppose is partly a normal reaction to the idea of having to hurt another person, but also partly due to the whole issue around putting his feelings first and ahead of mine.

I think the OP's husband is trying to learn about himself and change his behaviour .I'm doubtful if he will be able to alter the fundamentals of what he wants and how he wishes his wife to be .I also think it's come too late and the gulf is too big to be bridged . And that there's little point in prolonging the struggle.

He is trying, he really is. He has his own difficulties but is otherwise a normal person who is really trying to be better. But yes, it is too late for me I think (and I'm trying to remember @Alcemeg's crumbs analogy!).

Hand on heart, not just me but (as far as I can see) all the other PPs, however tentative we'd normally be, can see beyond any shadow of a doubt (CAMPFIRE CHUMS, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM EXAGGERATING HERE) that your quality of life would improve tremendously without him. But you will only understand this if you somehow manage to get out and away from his controlling influence.

Gah, yes, I know it would be, I really can see that now... just how do I do it?!

So we can support, advise and encourage her as much as possible but we are all leading our lives well away from her. Only helplesshopeless can make the call, only she knows the practical in’s and out’s of her life. She is going through a process and l feel she is still a bit of a way from reaching a point of no return.

I do think I'm there, not at a point of no return, but at a point where I think I know what I want. But I'm still frozen, honestly the thought of saying anything is making me feel hugely panicked and I'm in the verge of tears just writing this I have no idea how people manage to make these huge decisions, especially when it's only wanted by one person in the couple.

Ending her therapy because of his stated belief that it wasn't helping her, means there is a long way to go.

I have a feeling that this is one of those things that I'll look back on in a few years and be appalled with...at the moment, I can see the outsiders perspective of it not being great, but right now it doesn't feel like a huge deal. But I guess that's part of being wrapped up in this pattern of behaviour!

I'd be nervous to bring up with my husband that I'd like to start again
Do you have to mention it?
Have you told him you're discussing it with a load of Internet randoms? He has no idea what evil influences you are subject to, it won't hurt him not to know about that either.

It's just the practical side of actually having it - we both work from home and there's no way of guaranteeing he wouldn't overhear.

Another brain dump from me!! Sorry about that. Always in a bit of a rush with my responses when I'm not working as I don't have any time to myself anyway, thank you all so much for your support. You're all amazing

Gah, yes, I know it would be, I really can see that now... just how do I do it?!
You do it one baby step at a time and promise yourself not to backtrack.
First you "get your ducks in a row" - are you asking him to move out? Are you moving out? What childcare schedule works? What about finances? Maybe see a solicitor to figure out what the likely settlement will be.

Then you tell him it's over.

Then you execute your plan. One baby step at a time. Deep breath,don't think too hard, just one step at a time.

It'll be scary but it'll also be ok.