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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bastard bingo around the campfire

984 replies

helplesshopeless · 09/06/2021 10:51

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out! Grin

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support Flowers

OP posts:
peridito · 18/06/2021 08:59

oh helpless ,I don't think it matters whether there are positive signs of his ability to reflect or change from him or not .

The love between you is not there .He called you pathetic ? To me that's not a word used by someone who has respect and love ,even when said in anger and pain .

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 09:03

What a knob. He's ratcheted up the manipulation because he has no intention of changing. Because basically he feels entitled to behave how he does and doesn't view it as a problem.

He also said if I can't handle him snapping at me now and then (which as mentioned last night, wasn't actually the issue for me) then I was pathetic and there wasn't any point in continuing. See. Total knob. I don't know how you aren't just agreeing - yes you are right. I can't handle you snapping. And I don't mind if you don't cuddle me. I think this is the end of the road.

Oh and FWIW I think the counsellor probably looked like a rabbit in the headlights because your H was being scary and she wasn't expecting it. Maybe next week will be illuminating.

Flowers hopeless. I know it doesn't feel like it but this is all progress. You need to go through this hard stuff so that if it is over you know you tried everything. Sounds like it's reaching a head though.

ravenmum · 18/06/2021 09:04

He also said if I can't handle him snapping at me now and then ... then I was pathetic and there wasn't any point in continuing.
To comment on this rationally rather than just with a rude word or two ... some people react to stress by crying, some react to stress by snapping. Within limits, both are normal human reactions. You don't sound like you're crying an abnormal amount for this level of stress (I would guess you're quite reserved?). His temper, on the other hand, sounds like it goes well beyond acceptable limits.

he didn't think it was relevant as I'd previously said I was operating on the assumption that he would be well behaved going forwards
I don't understand this. If you're operating on the assumption that he's going to be well behaved, then wouldn't that make you more likely to point it out when he behaves like a shit?

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 09:08

Oh and this he explained that he felt like I presented the issues in a very one sided emotive way which is what had frustrated him; whereas when he describes a situation he does his best to make it more even (which to be fair he often does - also manipulative to get you to shut up about his abuse of you. Could be related to your sister being there and him worrying what you've told her.

My ex used to tell me that he would never talk about our relationship with anyone because what went on between us was private and he wouldn't want anyone to think badly of me. It was only afterwards I realised that was a subtle pressure that made me feel guilty if I talked about any difficulties we had and somewhat isolated me from my support network.

Pashazade · 18/06/2021 09:08

I have to agree with peredito. His behaviour under stress is still unacceptable. He seems unable to realise that you don't call the person you love "pathetic" even if you're upset with them. He said it was over, call his bluff. The way you are living right now is tortuous and honestly your counselling sessions don't seem to be helping. Of course you're one sided in your presentation, you can't know his feelings, but you can know yours.

Mix56 · 18/06/2021 09:09

Whatdirection I agree, It seems there is no point where either of you are going to fall in line with the other. You may be able to compromise & say "OK, clean slate, lets move forward". But he is not going to wipe that slate clean is he ? He is always going to use his mistrust of you as a stick to beat you with. The mistrust that was there right from the start, (indicated by his accusations of your flirting, etc)

Also the councillor sounds mediocre at best.

Now this statement ........we couldn't possibly stay together forever.
That means you are considering patching things up for now, but at some point in the future separating. added to your frequent acknowledgements , (paraphrasing) I don't love, him, I don't like him,
& more. Surely this is lunacy ?
You have agonised over this for weeks now, & basically You accept you don't want to live with him, there are clearly too many negatives that out weigh the positives, but...... IMHO
You don't want the upheaval of leaving him because you know he is going to unleash the dogs.
Its agony to watch, so I feel very sorry for you indeed

ravenmum · 18/06/2021 09:15

I think I'm desperately trying to discern who is right and wrong in each of our discussions to verify my feelings
Is this what you mean by clarity? Working out whether you are "right"?
Or does/could clarity mean something else?

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 09:16

Have you thought at all about what you want life to be like? Maybe write down how you want your home to be, if you were on your own with DD. Visualise it. I think it might help to start creating a safe space you are in control of, even if just in your mind for now

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 09:19

He also said if I can't handle him snapping at me now and then (which as mentioned last night, wasn't actually the issue for me) then I was pathetic and there wasn't any point in continuing.
And this is where I wish you could just say, "Hey, you know what, I'm pathetic! Let's give up."
Why should you "handle" him snapping at you when you could be either on your own or with someone who doesn't snap at you (my now-DH never snaps at me about anything)?

@reader12 is right:
your longing to untangle and understand everything before you act could keep you trapped for a long long time. But you don’t have to be certain of being “right” or justified to leave. You can give yourself permission to leave because you know in your heart that you will never be happy with him. That's enough. You don’t need any other reason. That’s all you need to know, and you already know it.
However, I have a feeling OP that you just can't take the idea seriously. It's brewing in you, but it needs more time, and only you know how long you consider "sensible." It might never come to anything. Or it might, in another 10 years' time, or perhaps later still, e.g. when your daughter has left home. Or maybe never!

It seems that you strongly believe that the only fair and sensible thing to do is to stay. You would never forgive yourself if you "gave up too soon," which means making every effort you can to smooth and soothe. And because your husband is keen not to let you go, and because you are used to being treated badly, it won't take much for him to hang onto you.

There's a narrative about Hiroshima, along the lines that only something on that inhuman scale would allow the proud Japanese to give in without losing face. (I seem to specialise in tasteless metaphors, sorry!) Maybe you're waiting for your personal Hiroshima so that you can point at it and run.

Based on my own experience, I'd say the trouble is that when something massively traumatic like that does happen, you go into shock and your first impulse is to restore normality as much as possible. Then months, perhaps years, go by where you are not inclined to take any action that could make life worse. You retreat to lick your wounds and get your breath back.

By the time you start coming up for air again, you find yourself in a situation where you're thinking, "Well, I can't possibly leave now because I didn't when the atomic bomb went off, and nothing will ever be as bad as that, so it would not make sense to leave now, or indeed ever."

This is the trouble with forcing your life to be driven by logic.

But I understand your need to behave logically.
Especially when you have adapted to completely discount your own feelings.
Just be aware that being expected to behave logically is not as important in the "normal" world as it is in yours.
Being with someone like your husband, because you're permanently standing to attention in a courtroom, makes EVERYTHING in life unacceptable unless it follows the laws of his logic. And the laws of his logic are built to serve his interests. (How many arguments do you ever win?)

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 09:24

That's a brilliant post alce, totally agree. I had a personal hiroshima 5 years before I left exH, I wish I'd left then but I couldn't cos it was too traumatic.

However. I've learnt to trust myself that I will know the right thing to do, when the time is right. If OP doesn't know now, maybe the time isn't right yet. But it will be.

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 09:31

Thank you @QuentinBunbury. I did too, it took me a couple of years to act on it and then he said everything I was doing/saying just came completely out of the blue. Because even Hiroshima (actually, especially Hiroshima) got swept under the carpet, like everything else.

OP, just on the word "pathetic" -- next time your husband is upset, how about calling him "pathetic"? I imagine that would feel like a violation. Consider why.

If he takes offence at being called pathetic, you could just explain that you felt like he presented the issues in a very one-sided logical way, which is what had frustrated you.

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 09:42

Sorry -- one more thing, and then I will shut up and get on with work!!

You're never going to win in that courtroom, because you are on trial and he is the judge. And it would be like that even if he had "done a bad thing" (e.g. had an affair). This is the dynamics of your relationship.

Based on a system of values that you both settled on long ago, and can never be revised (unless you both become completely different people), the scales of justice work like this:
His "logic" weighs like lead
Your rational explanations weigh like feathers
His feelings weigh like lead
Your feelings weigh like feathers

You see how the scales are never going to tilt in your favour?

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 09:44

Aggghhh posted too soon! What I was going to say is:

This is why, outside the world of your courtroom marriage, logic is not revered quite so much.

Out here in the "normal" world, just the fact of you not loving him is enough to leave. More than enough. It weighs heavier than uranium.

ravenmum · 18/06/2021 09:46

Does "clarity" mean the correct arguments to defend your case in the courtroom your husband has created?

Just because he has created it, doesn't mean you have to play along.

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 10:14

Yeah I agree. TBH I wouldn't even try to turn the behaviour back on him. In his world, he is the arbiter of whats reasonable and that would be unreasonable.

One of the turning points for me was realising I would never be able to make exH see my POV. Because my explanations and feelings weigh like feathers

FantasticButtocks · 18/06/2021 10:34

@helplesshopeless

So you are pathetic if you can't 'handle' him snapping at you?

But if he can't handle you minding it and crying about it, he's not pathetic?

Is it only your emotions and reactions that are invalid?

And is he allowed to invalidate you and who you are, how you think, what you feel, how you behave? But you are not allowed to call him out on anything?

So do you both believe that only his version of events is correct? And that his take on things always trumps yours? In the end it does. Because even if you believe something independently of how he tells you it is, he soon bullies you into believing his version.

he didn't think it was relevant as I'd previously said I was operating on the assumption that he would be well behaved going forwards

It may well have been your assumption, but it's turned out to be a misapprehension.

He didn't think it was relevant?

But you did! Or you wouldn't have brought it up. For you, it was relevant.

He is working very hard, I'll give I'm that, working overtime in fact - to make sure he keeps you in your place and that you know and understand that your place is in the wrong!

And he is doing a fine job!!

So I am sorry op, but if by 'clarity' you really mean you need to feel that YOU ARE NOT IN THE WRONG before leaving this shitty little bully, then I fear you are stuck with him for the rest of your life.

Because he is always going to place you in the wrong, and you genuinely seem to believe him.

I'm so sorry ThanksThanksThanksThanks

peridito · 18/06/2021 10:49

helpless oh dear ,so much for you to read through and weigh .And here's me adding another post .

It was just rereading your
" a very one sided emotive way which is what had frustrated him; whereas when he describes a situation he does his best to make it more even"

and I thought mmm why is it wrong for you to describe something in a very emotive one sided way ? What you were describing were actions of his that had deeply impacted on you .Very emotive .Did he think you should have made it "even handed "by saying that you knew his behaviour came from jealousy which you know feel responsible for ?

Is he even handed about your need to depart from marriage to look for love and comfort,about the lack of that from him ?

I can imagine he's able to be even handed when describing behaviour of yours that he dislikes/upsets him .I bet he struggles to find criticism of you -thinking here ....you're not committed to believing he'll change ,you're taking too long about the whole thing ,you don't want to be physically intimate ,you sought comfort elsewhere .

Heinous ,all of them .

peridito · 18/06/2021 10:50

*know = now

rainbowstardrops · 18/06/2021 11:33

I've only just come across your threads and I've read your updates from both.
You're both at stalemate.
He needs you to show love and affection to help him move on from your affair and you need space and time to move on from his abuse.
Neither of you can 'win' here I don't think.

Cavagirl · 18/06/2021 11:46

I don't see how I can act before I have clarity

Are you still having individual counselling OP? I think the above is amongst the most important things you could explore in your individual sessions.

What does "having clarity" actually mean?

Can you visualise in your mind how it would feel to "know" either way, with a level of acceptable certainty, what you want? What are the circumstances in which you are imagining you have this clarity?

Imagine you know that you can never get to your aspired level of clarity. What is the next best course of action? At what point do you trigger that?

If you want to avoid being stuck then it's these questions you need to explore and answer, and accept that your current requirement for deciding your future - an aspired feeling of clarity - may not be realistic, and then what?

Out of interest - given all you've said lately about wishing you'd started to tackle your H's behaviour prior to your affair, and knowing deep down your marriage wouldn't last for life - did your feel the same level of clarity you're aspiring to in order to leave at the point at which you married? Did you have that level of clarity that marrying him was the right thing for you?

Mix56 · 18/06/2021 12:27

laughable too, is that you go to a councillor, speak about what is bothering you, & he gets angry because you speak about it.
What does he think a counsellor wants you say ?
He basically hadn't prepared his counter argument.
I think you are hoping he will finally snap & do something unpleasant or say He is the one who wants a divorce, that say, you have a get of gaol free card. he won't have to be bitter & vicious, because he has instigated the divorce, or had clearly behaved appallingly, & this means you are not the bad guy.
Imagine he finally snapped & wanted the divorce, I'm betting you would fee euphoric with relief

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 12:31

@Cavagirl everyone's posts have been brilliant, but I think you deserve a twinkly golden Star for this:

Did you have that level of clarity that marrying him was the right thing for you?

Alcemeg · 18/06/2021 14:10

Lunch break!

I thought of another thing

he felt like I presented the issues in a very one sided emotive way which is what had frustrated him; whereas when he describes a situation he does his best to make it more even (which to be fair he often does). So now I'm wondering if I was unfair.

and

I think I'm desperately trying to discern who is right and wrong in each of our discussions to verify my feelings

These are very closely related and have to do with the weight he gives things.

I am pretty sure that his "fairness" involves presenting your side too, perhaps with a little hint of a sneer, just enough for you to remember that your [actually, to us, intelligent and sensible] rational arguments, and your [actually, to us, 100% valid] feelings, are nothing but bum fluff. Then he weighs in with the stuff that really matters (his logic, his feelings).

but actually we are each allowed our own experiences and we don't need to interpret them identically.
Yes! The snag is that you have learned your place in the food chain, and your default setting is to take his version as your own.

iknowimcoming · 18/06/2021 14:21

Delurking. There are way more insightful and helpful posts here than mine will be, but just to add another voice to the choir - you will never get 'clarity' whilst you are with him, in fact the longer you stay the more murky the water will become as he is constantly throwing rocks in to keep it that way. If you really can't 'just' leave, why not do a trial separation? If necessary sell it to him as a way of working on yourselves separately with the aim of getting back together, that would give you time and space to decide what you want (I strongly doubt it will be him).

The way you diligently take time to reply to every individual comment on here shows just how much you feel you need to listen to and acknowledge and address/answer the points and questions raised by everyone and clearly this is what's happening with your 'd'h too. I just wish you could apply the same level of attention to your own feelings and needs Sad

QuentinBunbury · 18/06/2021 14:44

Yes quite iknow. Although I think it's a very good sign helpless has stopped apologising for being frustrating to us. I'm taking that as an indication she's starting to see her happiness and wellbeing as important. I hope so.

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