Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

"Where did all the good men go in the UK?"

I would estimate about 70% of the men i know are married to foreign women. I've only been to one UK - UK wedding in the past 25 years or so. Not massively representative, but my experience nonetheless.

Also this alleged rampant porn addiction - is this really a thing? Really, realy? How would you know?

I must admit that my original conversation did not touch on either:

• rampant porn addictions making a large part of the UK male population "creeps"
• "the ‘unchosen’ men could just be less shit"

Perhaps the porn issue is bigger than realised but am not sure that writing off all the men outside the top 10% is going to help. That is sort of the point being made. As long as even 1/3 of women (I suspect it is more)are now chasing the top 10% of men, the numbers don't add up (dramatically) I guess and there are more singles. Which is fine if they are happy with that, but they say rather frequently that they are not.

For the pp asking why people don't meet irl anymore, I'm not sure of the reason but I have noticed much less mingling and chatting up going on (pre covid). We also have some of the longest working hours in Europe, so perhaps people just don't have time or energy to do lots of hobbies etc? I also think it's quite a different matter to find someone pre marriage and kids, versus looking for love second time around. Perhaps equally difficult, but the requirements are often very different.

In my experience they are all married, gay or a complete psychopath. So hard to find a decent guy currently. Most of the them just want sex.

I married a looovely man in my twenties but now we’re in our forties, he’s turned into a bit of a dick.

Maybe men’s personalities just don’t age well.

Isn't this all being massively overthought?

By 30 the ones who are ready to settle down and have kids are taken. Of the few in my circle who hadn't, a few just didn't want to settle down, be and one (1) did, but wasn't a great prospect because his career wasn't settled, he was short and thin, and he wasn't very charismatic. He's married too now.

As for the whole UK v foreign thing, YMMV. I grew up in the UK and now live in NZ: if I generalise, I'd say both men and women here are more masculine and a heck of a lot less complicated and fragile than in the UK.

You say you're asking for a friend. Why can't your friend ask? This is an anonymous forum. Or are you actually trying to make a point about how women have too high expectations from you poor men and then blame it on you poor men when that they can't find anyone good enough? Pardon me if I'm making incorrect assumptions, but the tone really does seem to be going in that direction.

As long as even 1/3 of women (I suspect it is more)are now chasing the top 10% of men, the numbers don't add up (dramatically) I guess and there are more singles.
Given the opportunity, at least 1/3 of people would purchase a lovely villa with a swimming pool in the Tuscan countryside. However, if we don't have the dosh to do so, we don't instead go homeless.

But when we whinge about the cramped bedroom and creaky floor in the home we can afford, no-one with any heart says it's our expectations that are the issue.

@FeistySheep

I'm definitely not blaming women MORE than men. But the way I see it is this:

Every woman should have high standards, and aim for:
Trustworthy
Kind
Hardworking
Not a misogynist
Wants the same major things in life - religion/kids/where you live
Some kind of chemistry

Then there are added bonuses which vary by woman, such as:
Attractive/fit/tall
Wealthy enough to not worry about money
Social success
Career high-flyer
Good conversationalist
Social class
Same hobbies
Disney ideal of romantic love

Women should absolutely look for everything in the first list. No harm in being aware of things like the ones in the second list either. But women should be aware that refusing to abandon some things from the second list may limit their man pool and mean they end up alone.

I realise that society has changed a bit in the last ten years ish, and maybe the prevalence of OLD means it's harder to meet someone in a pub. But I don't understand why women can't meet men IRL in other ways. Don't people still go to hobby/sports clubs? Meet people at work/church/through friends/whatever? What is it about society that has changed so much that people can't meet in these places anymore?

That first list sets the bar ridiculously low for me, @FeistySheep. I don't think any woman should feel that she has to 'aim for' trustworthiness or lack of misogyny, but the list of 'added bonuses' is even odder, putting 'being a good conversationalist' on the same level as 'wealthy enough not to ever worry about money' or 'Disney ideas of romance'?

@ravenmum, I agree. Women's expectations should be far higher. Anyone reading the relationships forum on here will see endless instances of what happens when you don't have exacting standards for all the human beings with whom you maintain relationships -- spouses, romantic partners, friends.

Why shouldn't they have standards and just settle for some oik? Reading the boards on here, they're right, there are a lot of shitty men out there. I married a foreigner, too.

I’d give the same advice to both genders if I know someone is struggling. If they are failing to get any interest at all from the opposite sex the first thing is to really dig down and discover what attracts the kind of people they find attractive and develop\embody those virtues. You have to be really brutal here as for example your high flying career and resources might be a huge plus point and source of pride to you, but honestly a hell of a lot of men don’t need your money and it’s unlikely to be much of a factor in what attracts them. Although the education that comes with a lot of successful women can be hugely attractive. Conversely being kind/sensitive as a guy can very much count against you early on as unfortunately we are still very much in the grip of toxic masculine ideals. Almost all women say they want that, but it’s almost never what initially attracts them.

If you are getting opportunities but they turn out to be a string of disappointments then there is most likely something wrong in the initial selection criteria. So commit to some self knowledge and work on figuring out why you end up perpetually attracted to people who turn out to be unsuitable.

Finally it’s a real tragedy that oftentimes the skills and traits that make someone a good partner in committed relationships are all too often completely different to the skills/traits that attract people.

The only other thing I can advise from personal experience is that I am extrovert, I genuinely love people (irrespective of wether I am in the market for relationships or not), and just from meeting lots of people affords a lot more options without even especially trying. So I would urge anyone to put yourself out there a bit more, someone will invariably think you are the bees knees sooner or later.

Posted too soon! Re my last comment about making lists, yes it isn't good to just 'settle' but the whole requirement list making thing is a really bad idea and creates a certain type of person IMO, which might be off-putting to potential partners.

I was in a two year relationship with a man who on paper seemed perfect husband material. I then suddenly fell head over heels in love with a new work colleague who definitely was NOT husband material at the time.

25 years later we are still married with two teenage DCs and he now has a successful business of his own.

Tell your lawyer friend to go for physical attraction & love and don't bother with status, job, etc. I totally appreciate why she does, but when I met my husband he was unemployed and I fancied him (now he's a top 2% earner & we have a great life). 100% keep watertight boundaries and run at red flags but I would relax any other rules. You'll never know who you'll meet.

@Polkadots2021 that's exactly what I did 25 years ago - good looks and huge fun potential! No regrets.

I do remember a rather disheartening piece The Guardian ran a few years ago, where they featured couples who had stayed together after meeting on their long running weekly blind date feature.

There were about five couples and all the women were very attractive/slim and all the men had very good jobs.

It made me feel quite sorry for single people.

Not my experience but it depends what you want. Obviously when I was sex dating I had absolutely NO shortage, I was 50 and carrying a few pounds, and I met some slightly strange individuals but also some great guys. Then I did a bit of normal dating and again not much of a shortage really, though I had a few ups and downs. If you're willing just to enjoy dates with no preconceptions and a realistic view of what you actually care about, it can work fine. I'm with someone who's just lovely and having a very nice time. My bottom line was having some kind of flicker of physical interest in their picture, plus some evidence we'd have enough in common to have a conversation. Height i let go of years ago having realised what a sexist nonsense it is. There have been unexpected allied benefits.

@JanuaryJonez

I do remember a rather disheartening piece The Guardian ran a few years ago, where they featured couples who had stayed together after meeting on their long running weekly blind date feature.

There were about five couples and all the women were very attractive/slim and all the men had very good jobs.

It made me feel quite sorry for single people.

I quite like the Guardian blind dates column, so have read quite a few, and tbh aren't they all quite slim, male and female, with the middle-class jobs you'd expect of Guardian readers? Surely more to do with the kind of people willing to be featured in that column than anything else?

@PermanentTemporary

Not my experience but it depends what you want. Obviously when I was sex dating I had absolutely NO shortage, I was 50 and carrying a few pounds, and I met some slightly strange individuals but also some great guys. Then I did a bit of normal dating and again not much of a shortage really, though I had a few ups and downs. If you're willing just to enjoy dates with no preconceptions and a realistic view of what you actually care about, it can work fine. I'm with someone who's just lovely and having a very nice time. My bottom line was having some kind of flicker of physical interest in their picture, plus some evidence we'd have enough in common to have a conversation. Height i let go of years ago having realised what a sexist nonsense it is. There have been unexpected allied benefits.

That’s really great . Out of interest , did you find men our age ( im similar age as you ) have also let go of the sexist nonsense about women’s ages and preferring someone younger than them ?

Once you get to 50, you just have to accept being single forever.

@Misty9

For the pp asking why people don't meet irl anymore, I'm not sure of the reason but I have noticed much less mingling and chatting up going on (pre covid). We also have some of the longest working hours in Europe, so perhaps people just don't have time or energy to do lots of hobbies etc? I also think it's quite a different matter to find someone pre marriage and kids, versus looking for love second time around. Perhaps equally difficult, but the requirements are often very different.

Agree with some of this, as a young man it was easy to meet other people (young women really )via pubs and clubs, but this was in pre-internet dating times. I think working hours is a bit of a red herring, but as a middle aged man, I’m very circumspect about speaking to women with out some form of social circumstance, plus living in a non metropolitan area makes it pretty impossible anyway,, so OLD it is, at 50 + I’m finding the pool of potential matches is increasing slightly (for me anyway), but used to struggle to find anyone who really matched the kind of qualities I was looking for, so stopped.

Obviously there will have been men my sort of age who didn't get in touch with me because they wanted someone younger. My new bloke is 3 years older than me which is about the gap I usually have in relationships and there were plenty at that age around. For sex dating... God, it's a buffet. My most persistent bloke off that site is 10 years younger than me. I could have been knee deep in guys in their 20s and early 30s wanting an older woman ( equally sexist in its way... but hey. I only succumbed a few times. Ish But men in their 40s and 50s are better lovers in my experience).

I am absolutely not denying sexist forces and attitudes out there. But you just don't have to accept them.

@Gucci1961

Once you get to 50, you just have to accept being single forever.

I don’t necessarily think that’s true, I was looking in the kinda 45 to 55 age range, just didn’t find anyone that really clicked for me, but I’m sure others do

I would assume @Gucci1961 meant that tongue in cheek, as it's obviously not true :)

@BinocularVision That first list sets the bar ridiculously low for me, @FeistySheep. I don't think any woman should feel that she has to 'aim for' trustworthiness or lack of misogyny, but the list of 'added bonuses' is even odder, putting 'being a good conversationalist' on the same level as 'wealthy enough not to ever worry about money' or 'Disney ideas of romance'?

Well I wasn't trying to cover everything a woman might want, and did say 'such as'. I do think that everything on the second list is a perk not an absolute for me. I don't think they're all on the same level, nor did I say so, but I was just making the point that if a woman is holding out for someone who has every single thing on her 'perfect man' list, and is not prepared to compromise at all, she is probably shooting herself in the foot. It would definitely be good to have some of the things on your personal 'bonus list', but I don't think you need all of them for a successful partnership.

I agree that 'wealthy enough not to worry about money' is definitely desirable, but for me it isn't an absolute. I grew up in 'poverty' and my parents worried about money. But they were and are very happy and I believe it is possible to be married to a good man who works hard on minimum wage.

I don't think anyone should ever compromise on anything in the first list. I agree with you on that.

I am not very good at short posts, and was trying to be succinct, but obviously just fell into the pit of not explaining myself well enough!

Im confused. Why would it be assumed i meant that tongue in cheek?