Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

Also, I've said it before: I'm not sure qualities like decency and being "good" really factor in what attracts either gender as much as they would like to believe.

I mean, yes, they're important. But they're not intrinsic to what creates that "spark". It seems more to do with what templates we've been set growing up. There's people who struggled to connect with their dad/mum and so seek out someone (subconciously) with similar traits as a way of rectifying that. People who came from conservative, old-fashioned families who may not agree with those values as an adult, but are attracted to that in others because it feels comfortable (being the template they grew up with). Others who might have grown up with similar, but chose someone completely the opposite extreme as a way of asserting their independence. Others who only feel they're of value if they're "rescuing" someone - so are drawn to people with unfixable flaws. Others, again, who can't bear to compromise - so are attracted to someone who, in some way, allows them to always be the one in control. Many, who I've come across repeatedly, have a slight lack of confidence in their sense of masculinity or femininity so will go for someone who somehow makes them feel this more: the guy who goes out with the sweet, child-like girly-girl or the woman who dates the six-foot plus guy because he makes her feel "small" and "protected".

I could go on.

@TossaCoinToYerWitcher

So are we saying here this is fundamentally a female issue. As society becomes broadly more egalitarian (leave aside specifics) we are placing more value on women and less on men. Women become more successful, which of course must be at the expense of men. Men in turn succeed less and hence there are less 'good men'. As whilst society changes the values of what is considered a good man doesn't.

I think the infamous Tinder research is partly to blame for this rationalisation - where they revealed something like 80% of the women on the app were only liking the top 20% of men, whilst men had a much greater spread. And that women who used the app actually rated 80% of the men on there as "undesirable" - not even "meh". Again, men tended to rate average female attractiveness much higher. I know reading that certainly put me off using OLD, as a man.

That said, I think the OLD experience does skew how we go about picking a partner, so I'm not sure if such choosiness holds water for those meeting in reality. And you might find different results for a different app - Tinder does have a bit of a shallow reputation, after all. It might be akin to researching dating choices in a nightclub in the pre-OLD days, when many went out "on the pull". If you were a tall and good-looking guy, you tended to get a lot of attention (not much chance for charming peole with your personality in a dimly lit room, with pounding music drowning out any hope of conversation). Same old, same old.

Yes I'd agree Tinder seems the most shallow. It's the site where you have to think about the pictures you upload. Other sites seem more forgiving.

But if the research is right then why would the 20% behave well. That group is quids in. It's the rest that probably would act better but don't get the chance. No idea if this is right just trying to rationalise.

@Misty9

I do think that if men put as much care into their online dating profile photos as women this would balance those stats out a bit. So many of the photos make the men look terrible - and that's what they've chosen as the best one?! I'd much rather meet someone irl, but it's how...

Fully agree. It is what it is. OLD is where it's at so to speak. Yes there's other ways but far harder, especially when you're a bit older (like me).

I do think that if men put as much care into their online dating profile photos as women this would balance those stats out a bit. So many of the photos make the men look terrible - and that's what they've chosen as the best one?! I'd much rather meet someone irl, but it's how...

I also found it hard to get around the fact that - no matter how hard you weighed up a person's profile - there's no way to actually work out if there'd be any chemistry when you actually met up. I began to think: "if I chose liked this person's profile, but in reality they were completely different and we had zero chemistry, maybe someone I rejected (who wasn't obviously horrendous!)may have also have been completely different in reality and we might have had great chemistry!"

Having similar interests suddenyl seemed like a really bad way to filter people. An ex of mine is currently extremely happy with a sporty, football-mad gamer. She hates football and gaming. She isn't sporty in the slightest. But there you go.

I began to think I'd need to date 80% of the people on the site, regardless of what my rational brain and the algorithms said, just to be sure. But that way madness surely lies...

@TossaCoinToYerWitcher I totally agree. I dislike how I have to judge someone on just a (poorly taken!) photo. It really conflicts with my values, but it also feels like there's little alternative to online dating. I'm tempted to just suggest meeting pretty much straight away when I chat to a (rare) match. Because until we meet, it's all hypothetical no matter how good the chat!

I've just read that Tinder research analysis. Jeez it really is skewed. I think anyone should read it before doing OLD

@Misty9

I do think that if men put as much care into their online dating profile photos as women this would balance those stats out a bit. So many of the photos make the men look terrible - and that's what they've chosen as the best one?! I'd much rather meet someone irl, but it's how...

Yeah, I don’t really any extra help to look terrible.. Mother Nature did a pretty good job 1st time round

@DadAManger this is such a depressing attitude.

I don't want a man who is obsessed with youth and beauty. I look young for my age now, but everyone ages and then what? Is he going to be looking for the next 30-something when I'm 45?

You seem to think women have a laundry list of things we're looking for when most women I know just want someone genuine and kind. I have a lot to offer a partner and yet almost every compliment I ever get is about my looks, even in relationships. I literally just want someone to 'see' me and appreciate me for who I am. It really shouldn't be this hard, but it is.

With men my age, 20s, the problem is that a lot of them are porn obsessed. If you don't agree with that or if you don't want to perform many of the 'baseline' acts like choking, anal, spitting etc, you're going to have a very hard time. I don't know if it's always been like that but seeing my friends' Tinder messages and seeing the messages I get from outwardly decent men who I thought were 'just friends' with me, I'd say a huge portion are awful and misogynistic even if they think they're progressive and not. You do meet the odd decent guy out that (my best friend is one of them!) but they're really hard to find!

I’m not that far out of the dating scene (in a serious relationship now) but I loved dating in the UK! Thought all the men were wonderful. I’m from the commonwealth and found UK men such a great mixture of gentlemanly, polite, yet also quite masculine! Most of my single friends seem to just be dating man children - rather than strategically going for the demographic that might be marriage material.

@Rozziie I understand and for sure I am making some generalisations. And yes, these are rather shallow generalisations too.

I was actually basing this on what my friends had said originally or what I observed (and others have commented along similar lines). I think most of my single friends looking for.a man are also looking predominately who is kind and genuine, like you. But some of them really do have a list of other expectations and requirements - openly admitted or otherwise. And at the moment they are great women who are still single.

I also see that a few of them have been taken in (and lost time) by what one poster referred to as men that know how to game OLD and present themselves as well as possible/heavily massage the truth in order to target women with a ‘checklist’.

They deserve better, but sometimes feel that OLD is skewed towards men.

Definitely don’t ascribe all of this to you or many others and wish you the best in finding the right guy.

I do feel sorry for the single ladies today... the current batch of men are of very low quality and unfortunately porn addicts

@MrsTerryPratchett

I married a foreigner. I can thoroughly recommend it

Me too on both counts

@TossaCoinToYerWitcher

I do think that if men put as much care into their online dating profile photos as women this would balance those stats out a bit. So many of the photos make the men look terrible - and that's what they've chosen as the best one?! I'd much rather meet someone irl, but it's how...

I also found it hard to get around the fact that - no matter how hard you weighed up a person's profile - there's no way to actually work out if there'd be any chemistry when you actually met up. I began to think: "if I chose liked this person's profile, but in reality they were completely different and we had zero chemistry, maybe someone I rejected (who wasn't obviously horrendous!)may have also have been completely different in reality and we might have had great chemistry!"

Having similar interests suddenyl seemed like a really bad way to filter people. An ex of mine is currently extremely happy with a sporty, football-mad gamer. She hates football and gaming. She isn't sporty in the slightest. But there you go.

I began to think I'd need to date 80% of the people on the site, regardless of what my rational brain and the algorithms said, just to be sure. But that way madness surely lies...

This is why I gave up on OLD and started speed dating. I met my DH that way & we had instant chemistry!

@coronaway

I think it's too simplistic to make such a statement (although I'm guilty of making it myself in moments of frustration ).

I think these days, and more so women than men, have unrealistic standards - online dating has become a checkbox exercise whereas real life isn't so black and white. People should definitely have standards but its easy to get carried away and pick the wrong ones while then ignore important ones or overlooking obvious red flags because someone ticks off lots of (often pointless) boxes.

Wasn't there a study fairly recently that asked men and women if you would go into a serious relationship with someone who ticked 80% of what you were looking for? Most of the men said they would jump at the chance while most of the women said no.

There is definitely a subset of men who play the game with online dating, know how to present themselves, the right things to say etc but aren't actually great partners.

I think with OLD there is an ever growing concentration of undesirables as the normal ones either get lucky and quickly come off them or are so horrified by the experience check out of the game completely.

The other factor is there is less need to be in a relationship than days gone past. It was more of a necessity so I imagine more people put up with shoddy relationships.

Sure there may have been this study but there was a much bigger study that asked men and women what age partner they want and whilst women’s partner preference aged with the woman , men’s ideal partner remained eternally 22 yr old female , even when the man is 40 , 50 , 70 , he’s still dreaming of that 22 yr old . For some of us that’s just creepy and we’d rather not settle for ken who eye off their granddaughters friends Sure most of them won’t get the 22 year old female as they are aging but a lot of women are not prepared to be with a man who sees her as runner up or second prize and is forced jerking off to porn of his fantasy women or eyeing them up thinking he somehow missed out on ‘ what he deserves ‘ or the real prize Everyone wants to feel valued by there partner and like they are cherished and held in the highest of esteem . Hard to do when as some other note , most men today are porn obsessed creeps no matter how old they get eyeing of women half their age Women’s standards are improving or at least many women’s are

DP is a good man. He's not British. I wouldn't be with a British man as Im wary of the way they're socialised. However I've not met every British man so I obviously I can't categorically say all are bad.

I hate smug comments that imply its Womens' fault they're single because their standards are too high. Good for them, better than low or no standards.

I'm 22 in London on a weight loss journey gone from an 18 to 14 so far looking to be an 8 or 10 but yes men are already obsessed, messaged constantly (I've been on several dates since April) I am about to start an engineering masters, on a good wage etc. so yeah once you are 30 here they don't seem to care

Well there's settling and settling isn't there. Don't settle for a nasty scumbag, but do 'settle' for a kind man who just happens to not be as physically attractive as you, or as rich as you, or taller than you, etc etc. Some single people I know (absolutely not all) can't see the relative unimportance of looks, height, and money. Others can't tell the difference between a man who is keen but shy, and a disinterested man.

I agree with this. If you can't find exactly what you want and aren't prepared to compromise then you are doomed to disappointment. Looks, height and money do not necessarily make a good man.

My husband is from Eastern Europe, honestly he treats me 1000x better than any of my english exs. Culturally women are the head of the family and are to be respected, very happy together.

This again?

I suspect they all run for the hills when women come at them with a reporter pad full of 'must haves'

My serially single friends bemuse me. They
Want the safety and security of an account called graham who drives a vauxhall and lives in a 70's semi in the burbs.
But find Graham's boring and 'love a bad lad' so chase after guys called Troy with full sleeve and neck tattoos with 4 kids by 4 different women. Then wonder why they can't force a Troy to become a Graham.
Need to start being honest and realistic about what you want.

@chocolateorangeinhaler

This again?

I suspect they all run for the hills when women come at them with a reporter pad full of 'must haves'

My serially single friends bemuse me. They
Want the safety and security of an account called graham who drives a vauxhall and lives in a 70's semi in the burbs.
But find Graham's boring and 'love a bad lad' so chase after guys called Troy with full sleeve and neck tattoos with 4 kids by 4 different women. Then wonder why they can't force a Troy to become a Graham.
Need to start being honest and realistic about what you want.

Maybe so for a small percentage of women.but unfortunately Graham’s and troys seems to both be porn addicts obsessed with women’s youth and appearance , putting a complete emphasis on that with almost no care for women’s intelligence kindness or wisdom , whereas men are valued for so much more than their appearance

Yes, it’s definitely all women’s fault for being successful and choosy.

Or you know, the ‘unchosen’ men could just be less shit?

I'm definitely not blaming women MORE than men. But the way I see it is this:

Every woman should have high standards, and aim for:
Trustworthy
Kind
Hardworking
Not a misogynist
Wants the same major things in life - religion/kids/where you live
Some kind of chemistry

Then there are added bonuses which vary by woman, such as:
Attractive/fit/tall
Wealthy enough to not worry about money
Social success
Career high-flyer
Good conversationalist
Social class
Same hobbies
Disney ideal of romantic love

Women should absolutely look for everything in the first list. No harm in being aware of things like the ones in the second list either. But women should be aware that refusing to abandon some things from the second list may limit their man pool and mean they end up alone.

I realise that society has changed a bit in the last ten years ish, and maybe the prevalence of OLD means it's harder to meet someone in a pub. But I don't understand why women can't meet men IRL in other ways. Don't people still go to hobby/sports clubs? Meet people at work/church/through friends/whatever? What is it about society that has changed so much that people can't meet in these places anymore?

Aberdeen is full of men

@chocolateorangeinhaler

This again?

I suspect they all run for the hills when women come at them with a reporter pad full of 'must haves'

My serially single friends bemuse me. They
Want the safety and security of an account called graham who drives a vauxhall and lives in a 70's semi in the burbs.
But find Graham's boring and 'love a bad lad' so chase after guys called Troy with full sleeve and neck tattoos with 4 kids by 4 different women. Then wonder why they can't force a Troy to become a Graham.
Need to start being honest and realistic about what you want.

There's a lot of truth in this.