Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

[quote DateXY]@Rozziie your post illustrates exactly my previous points. Too many women waste precious years on the wrong men. If you want marriage and commitment why on earth let a guy string you along for years and years on end why he enjoys all the relationship benefits you're giving him??

Unless they have issues, guys in their 20s know within a couple of years if they want to marry the woman they're with or not. And men who are serious about marriage actually propose, they don't just sit around and do nothing or give empty promises. I know plenty of women who got engaged in their 20s. I also know other women like you and your friends, but most of the men in those situations ended up proposing to other women soon after. There are some of those men who are still not married, but they're exactly the commitment phobe types that should be avoided.

Unless the relationships started before uni, the vast majority of women I know who were in relationships that lasted around 3.5 years or more, never married that boyfriend. It's also been shown in studies, that the longer a couple lives together before marriage, the more likely they are to divorce if they do marry. Women need to stop giving men all the power and break up when proposals don't materialise (if they want commitment) and find another man.[/quote]
Jesus. You don't think this is a patriachical viewpoint? That a relationship is worthless unless people get married??

If we are trying to encourage women to get good careers and be self-sufficient before they have children then marriage becomes a non-issue. It was certainly the most stupid decision I ever made (financially, especially) to get married. Your undelying presumption in that post is that women need men to pay for them. We do not.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Well that’s NOT how IM referring to it ."

We're talking about the world of dating and solvent means rich, or at least, well off. Plenty have mentioned here that they want a man who owns his own home, for example.
"And here you are .... all you want to notice is the word ‘ solvent ‘ smile interesting"

I don't know what you're trying to infer with that, but you seem quite hostile, so I won't engage with your comments any more.

No. Solvent means not being in debt. Colloquially perhaps it's taken to mean being self-supporting (not reliant on anyone but oneself or an employer for money - no state support). Anybody who thinks it means "rich" needs to buy a dictionary.

No not hostile at l just get tired of hearing how women seem to want this yet I see no evidence of women requiring men to own their own homes or even have a lot of resources prior to dating

It depends what stage of life you are at. I mean, I am in my 30s and divorced and have my own home and a good career. No particular desire to enter another relationship but would only do so for someome very special and it would need to be a given that he was solvent, capable of supporting himself, did not expect to move in together or get married or share finances etc. But then I'm quite happy on my own!

When younger, no, I didn't make such stipulations. Result was me carrying boyfriends and then a husband along who did not pay their way OR contribute equally at home. Hence I am single now.

The 'good' men are few and far between, and they're all taken by mid-late 20s.

If a man is single over 30 there's usually a reason.

In my experience places with a strong sense of community lead to better relations between sexes and better behavior generally.

I split my time between rural Ireland and an English market town, having lived previously in larger English cities, and the difference is pretty stark. The much stronger sense of community is a powerful factor imo in socialising people into a mindset that supports positive relationships that are definitely more sustainable, and appear to be happier. Lack of choice/alternative options will be a more mundane factor, but sense of community appears to be pretty powerful.

@luciferonearth

The 'good' men are few and far between, and they're all taken by mid-late 20s.

If a man is single over 30 there's usually a reason.

I think that's a tad harsh - there is a lot of luck involved. People drift apart and end up single etc. As a single women in my late 30s I hope people aren't thinking there is a negative reason why that is the case.

@luciferonearth

The 'good' men are few and far between, and they're all taken by mid-late 20s.

If a man is single over 30 there's usually a reason.

I think this is tad harsh as well, as a single man in my 50’s I imagine most people think I’m just some kinda sad fat old divorced bloke (mostly true), but I hope not, I think I still have something to offer anyone who looking for a fat old bloke.

@luciferonearth

The 'good' men are few and far between, and they're all taken by mid-late 20s.

If a man is single over 30 there's usually a reason.

This is nonsense . Do you therefore say the same thing about women over 30 who are single ?

@luciferonearth

The 'good' men are few and far between, and they're all taken by mid-late 20s.

If a man is single over 30 there's usually a reason.

Yes, and often that reason is their wife turned out to be serial cheat. They do exist, you know. Or are we going to trot out the same victim-blaming narrative that cheated-on wives get unfairly labelled with?

MrsTerryPratchett

"I married a foreigner. I can thoroughly recommend it"

Me too, Eastern Europeans are bought up very well & mine is a real gentleman

@DateXY well frankly because I didn't want to get married in my twenties. It's too young. Lots of people end up in this position of meeting someone in their early twenties, wanting to get their career sorted and become financially stable before getting married at 30ish, and then inadvertently ending up being strung along. If I'd met him at 28, I think we would have got married at 30ish. It just went on too long and got stale.

@Holowiwi you say that's the case but I don't think it is. I remember considering leaving my ex at 26 and I certainly didn't feel like I had the dating world at my feet. Every nice man I knew at the time was married or in a relationship, and so was everyone I met socially. Everything I heard about dating apps sounded awful and people around me were settling down with rubbish men out of desperation. Perhaps if I hadn't had the security of a relationship I'd have been forced to get out there more, but it definitely didn't feel as if I had all these great options.

@Rozziie. My goodness , I’ve had an identical situation— except mine was in my early mid 30s and my second marriage. Lovely slightly hippyish bohemian bloke, helped build his confidence, built a business— he suddenly ‘got on’ and became very in demand and suddenly became egocentric and pompous . The feminist in him suddenlyvwent out the window and he developed a daily behind my back porn habit — I’m still married to him and he still has a nice side to him as well— but certainly the pomposity and the my way or the highway tendencies developed once success came to the door. We are living abroad in Europe at the moment and I’m mentally trying to work out how to leave and get enough cash to take my stuff back to uk plus pay 6 months rent up front — I’m now Late 50s too and that’s always at the back of my mind - I think many men become pompous when they suddenly are ‘doing ok’ and the women in their life are expected to toe along even if bright successful women themselves

@GorgeousWhirl

MrsTerryPratchett

"I married a foreigner. I can thoroughly recommend it"

Me too, Eastern Europeans are bought up very well & mine is a real gentleman

Massive generalisation but eastern European men have always come across quite misogynistic in my experience.

The easy answer is to just date lots of men (or women) at the same time.

If one pisses you off, you move on and add another to the rota.

Of course I'm being a bit blasé but realistically what I learned very quickly from this approach was what were and were not deal breakers from dates

After a year or two serial dating, having a great time and taking no shit from anyone I met Mr perfect, at work. So I'd say use OLD to hone your skills. DO NOT Lower your standards, ever. And enjoy being single and in charge of your own destiny.

@ Gwenhwyfar you are quite right, “solvent” in the world of OLD really does mean rich or at least successful financially. It has been used that way for a while. I am told by friends in Asia that sometimes it is also used alongside “generous” there - to mean someone who both has money and is and willing to spend it on the person putting in the ad.

@PatsyClinSilVousPlait

In my experience places with a strong sense of community lead to better relations between sexes and better behavior generally.

I split my time between rural Ireland and an English market town, having lived previously in larger English cities, and the difference is pretty stark. The much stronger sense of community is a powerful factor imo in socialising people into a mindset that supports positive relationships that are definitely more sustainable, and appear to be happier. Lack of choice/alternative options will be a more mundane factor, but sense of community appears to be pretty powerful.

So are you saying that people in rural towns just meet the man next door, like in old days, and he treats her ok because everybody he knows knows her too? I am not sure I understand. I think that the worst I"ve ever been treated has been by men online though so I"m interested in your thoughts. I did wonder if the fact that nobody who knew these men knew me too contributed to the lies I was told and the facts that were kept from me.

@Rozziie so you would have declined getting married at any point in your 20s even if you were with a man you loved who wanted to commit to you? And what's practically different between a husband vs. boyfriend that would stop you from building career and become financially stable if you were married instead of dating someone? If anything, marriage helps with this as you become a joint unit and both know you're on the same page of being in the relationship for the long haul.

That's completely your choice not to want to be married in your 20s but obviously that leaves a much smaller window to meet the right person (bearing in mind some dates/relationships will go nowhere) who also thinks you're the right person for them, date them long enough to know them properly, get engaged, get married, have kids etc all while you're able to have children.

All the while, the numbers of eligible men will naturally be decreasing as they settle down and commit to other women. The point I was making earlier is that women cannot expect everything they want to necessarily fall into their laps at scheduled times. They're consequences for every decision we make.

@GorgeousWhirl

MrsTerryPratchett

"I married a foreigner. I can thoroughly recommend it"

Me too, Eastern Europeans are bought up very well & mine is a real gentleman

Well mine slept around behind my back throught our entire relationship, even when engaged/ married/ pregnant/ nursing small children. So perhaps the generalisations are not so helpful.

*throughout.
🙄

[quote DateXY]@Rozziie so you would have declined getting married at any point in your 20s even if you were with a man you loved who wanted to commit to you? And what's practically different between a husband vs. boyfriend that would stop you from building career and become financially stable if you were married instead of dating someone? If anything, marriage helps with this as you become a joint unit and both know you're on the same page of being in the relationship for the long haul.

That's completely your choice not to want to be married in your 20s but obviously that leaves a much smaller window to meet the right person (bearing in mind some dates/relationships will go nowhere) who also thinks you're the right person for them, date them long enough to know them properly, get engaged, get married, have kids etc all while you're able to have children.

All the while, the numbers of eligible men will naturally be decreasing as they settle down and commit to other women. The point I was making earlier is that women cannot expect everything they want to necessarily fall into their laps at scheduled times. They're consequences for every decision we make.[/quote]
I only know of one couple who got married in their 20s, and that was due to a medical concern. It's totally normal for couples to marry in their 30s these days. People - men and women - want to establish careers after univeristy/ post grad studies/ sitting professional qualifications etc whoch can easily take until mid-20s. Then most people want to spend a couple of years dating then a couple of years living together before deciding to marry. Then have to organise a wedding... so even it everything goes perfectly with the first serious relationship post-uni etc that still takes you to 30ish for the wedding.

[quote Crikeyalmighty]@Rozziie. My goodness , I’ve had an identical situation— except mine was in my early mid 30s and my second marriage. Lovely slightly hippyish bohemian bloke, helped build his confidence, built a business— he suddenly ‘got on’ and became very in demand and suddenly became egocentric and pompous . The feminist in him suddenlyvwent out the window and he developed a daily behind my back porn habit — I’m still married to him and he still has a nice side to him as well— but certainly the pomposity and the my way or the highway tendencies developed once success came to the door. We are living abroad in Europe at the moment and I’m mentally trying to work out how to leave and get enough cash to take my stuff back to uk plus pay 6 months rent up front — I’m now Late 50s too and that’s always at the back of my mind - I think many men become pompous when they suddenly are ‘doing ok’ and the women in their life are expected to toe along even if bright successful women themselves[/quote]
@Crikeyalmighty That sort of arrogance and pomposity is a very ugly personality trait. There can be few relationships that are respectful with those character traits, and with lack of respect abuse is the next step in some individuals. I'm not sure how often it happens in some women, but I think when some men start earning a lot more or get a bit of success, it makes them a lot more entitled. They think you should be grateful to have them (nevermind what their other less desirable character traits are) and suddenly it's 'my way or the highway'. They feel enabled to behave that way either because they think their female partner is dependent on them, and less likely to leave, or suddenly they feel like they're such a magnificent catch that they're doing a favour by staying with you because in their head they believe they can go out and get any desirable woman they want.

@C0nstance

It helps keep some people in check when they know they will be shamed by their small communities for behaving in a certain way. Gossip in certain areas tends to spread faster than status updates on social media. If a man or woman is rotten to their partner, usually news will get around pretty quickly and it's difficult to escape a reputation. People still behave badly, but it's an extra factor that keeps people's behaviour in check at times.

@DateXY Yes. I simply was not ready to get married in my mid twenties. People change a lot in that decade and I wasn't prepare to make the commitment and take the risk. Given how awful he turned out to be the moment he had the smallest bit of professional success, I don't see this as a bad thing or a mistake. The breakup was upsetting and traumatic, but I didn't have to go through a divorce, so I'm not sure how I lost out. Getting married doesn't mean you stay together if you turn out to be incompatible.

You seem to think all women are desperate to be married before it's too late. That might have been the case for you, but I would much prefer to be single forever than landed with some horrible arsey bloke treating me badly and talking down to me every day.