Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

@TossaCoinToYerWitcher

Whereas with 'dating dating' this seems to be what women want and not so.much men. So the men ready to commit and prepared to make the effort to go with it are more likely to be successful. Not sure if that's right but women my age are adamant it's harder for them then men.

I think this is where things might diverge depending on your age/stage on life though. I was 30 when I met my future wife and ready to commit, so - in theory - I was one of those eligible men who had been "snapped up" for all those 30-something women looking to settle down with someone.

In my early 40s, having started a family, my wife decided she didn't believe in monogamy and wanted to have an open marriage. I didn't. We divorced. After a couple of years healing up and getting over it, I'm now in my mid-forties. I'm still that guy who was eligible and open to commitment - however, I'm under no illusions that a middle-aged co-parenting dad is what those same 30-something women are still looking for!

What people want in a partner pre-kids and pre-forties can vary massively to what someone post-kids and middle-aged may want. I don't want any more kids and want someone who "gets" what my stage of life is like, somost thirty-something single women are out, let alone twenty-somethings! And, to be fair, they (quite reasonably) would consider the same of me!

My situation is very similar. I'm just slightly younger at 40. I've walked away from potential serious partners as I need to be sure it's the right thing and unfortunately I know anyone playing any kind of step mom role to my kids will be difficult so I'm conscious of boundaries, I think some of the women I've dated really struggled with that.

Wasn't there a study fairly recently that asked men and women if you would go into a serious relationship with someone who ticked 80% of what you were looking for? Most of the men said they would jump at the chance while most of the women said no.

I agree with much of what you said but this is interesting, if you view it alongside the repeated findings that the happiest people in society are single women, followed by married men, then single men, then married women. So it makes rational sense that men would be more desperate than women are to get into a relationship.

Unimportant anecdote from when I was about 20:

I've always been sceptical of the view that women want a bad boy for fun and a safe boring man for children. I reckon most people just want someone they can connect with.

But anyway, female friend told me that all the women in our friend group had done a poll on which man they'd most like to marry, and I'd won it.

"Humph" I said. "Why don't any of you want to date me then?"

Friend giggled and didn't reply.

I expect she was lying :-)

@FourTeaFallOut

I think most of the good ones get mopped up in their twenties and after that it's like looking for a decent item that actually fits in a next sale.

I agree with this. So it you picked badly in your youth, there is minimal chance to find someone who deserves you later if you are reasonably kind, successful, intelligent, attractive etc. And actually it's far better to be single than force a relationship with someone who doesn't really "get" you or is an arsehole or even annoying! I think part of this is the presumption that all single people must want a partner - clearly some do - but plenty are quite happy being single if they don't meet anybody worth the effort.

@SilenceIsNotAvailable I think that is mainly based on one study which apparently was misinterpreted. The wording was a bit clunky and said something like 'partner not present' on one of the questions referring to whether their partner was in the room or not when being asked the question. Apparently this was misinterpreted to mean single/not partnered up. If this is true then that changes the findings quite a bit.

Also I've seen studies which suggest permanently single men are the happiest group - not married men. Now this could be because a certain type of man chooses to remain single and such a man has certain characteristics which improve their life in such a way as to make them happier on the whole.

The other thing to keep in mind is single men include a large portion of men who have gone through a divorce which was initiated by their wife (as the majority of divorces are - probably because the men were hopeless but that's another point ). Naturally that is going to have a big impact on the finding of these studies. I'm not sure how much weighting we can put on these 'findings' as normally they're just there to create a catchy headline.

I think there are some good, balanced points in this thread. Personally I know I'm too preoccupied with certain traits in a man which is hindering my dating chances. Telling myself to change doesn't work though, it feels more like a strong instinct or pull to keep going after the same type of men even though I know this is an illogical way to date.

Had I been born 30 years earlier I'm sure sociatal pressure would have been too great for me to remain single. I do wonder whether I would have been happier however if that pressure was present (even though I'm all for personal choice / freedom).

try Russians.

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?
There's having standards and having standards.

If their list of criteria is something like:
Must have reasonable employment history and not have red flags for being a cocklodger in waiting
Needs to have no baggage like a divorce in progress, kids from previous relationship that will limit a future relationship, etc
Needs to treat me with respect
Needs to be attractive to me
Needs to have similar values to me
Needs to want the same sort of relationship as me (eg on the same page about marriage, kids, allocation of working and domestic load)
Needs to believe in a fair and equitable allocation of financial and domestic responsibility

Then they're reasonable. Why would you want to date a man child who thinks you're his mum, sulks if you're not in the mood for sex, and expects a gushing outpouring of praise for putting his pants in the laundry?

If their standard involves only wanting a man who earns above a certain number, will only consider certain careers, has a long list of physical qualities that are non-negotiable, will rule out any man who doesn't wine and dine her well enough, expects a man to have exactly the same hobbies, exactly the same life philosophy, exactly the same political views, a set dress sense, etc
Then they're probably being so picky that they're missing out on perfectly nice guys in favour of a fantasy.

@LolaSmiles - thank you, this was exactly what I wondered about and led to my OP. It depends on the person of course, but I do think some balance is important there too.

@Skysblue

I married a looovely man in my twenties but now we’re in our forties, he’s turned into a bit of a dick.

Maybe men’s personalities just don’t age well.

👏👏🤣

Women don't need to compete for the 'top' men because they can earn their own money, who would want a 'high status man' anyway Mr Primadonna bossyboots who has to be star of the show!
No thank you

@chocolateorangeinhaler

This again?

I suspect they all run for the hills when women come at them with a reporter pad full of 'must haves'

My serially single friends bemuse me. They
Want the safety and security of an account called graham who drives a vauxhall and lives in a 70's semi in the burbs.
But find Graham's boring and 'love a bad lad' so chase after guys called Troy with full sleeve and neck tattoos with 4 kids by 4 different women. Then wonder why they can't force a Troy to become a Graham.
Need to start being honest and realistic about what you want.

Think you've just described my love life 😂

@Gwenhwyfar

"That the competition is very tough and that men (annoyingly) are happy to marry down. "

Why is it annoying that men are happy to marry down? (I presume you mean in terms of class, because marrying a young or pretty women would not really be considered 'down' for men).
The average man earns more than the average women so if they didn't marry women who earn less than them, most would not marry at all.

Intelligence, not class.

Young, pretty and thick is fine for fun, but that combination objectively is marrying down - for men or for women - because marriage is meant to be a long-term thing and only one of these traits endures.

There is potentially such a thing as too much choice, which I think can cause people with long laundry lists of requirements for prospective partners to become very easily dissatisfied with anyone they end up with as of course there are always individuals with a few extra points on any given axis of choice.

I think they did a study re: pension plans in America that when you have a choice between a handful of policies people find it easier to read up on and pick what feels the best choice, when there dozens and dozens of options, because going through all of them would take a serious amount of time it actually caused more people to defer actually picking one and those that did were always left with that nagging anxiety their choice may have been sub optimal.

Is it possible a similar thing happens in the dating market for a lot of people?

@User135644

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

So basically, where are all the good looking, wealthy men with great personalities? Married.

But presumbly there are roughly the same number of successful, decent, intelligent, attractive women as there are men. In fact probably more men with all of these qualities as it's generally harder for women to become successful still. So if you are saying nearly all of those men are married but not all of those women are, what are the conclusions about why this could be?: many men do not choose wives who can have an equal partnership with them and instead deliberately choose someone who is somehow lacking in qualities they presumably value in themselves?

I think as women increasingly realise that a relationship is not the basis of all good things in life, and that if they want a "lifestyle" the best way to get it is to get educated and build a career or business and earn the money yourself, these tables will turn a bit. The biological clock part is what it is for women who want children, but that wouldn't explain women in early 30s struggling to find decent men. This is all still down to societal prejudices and many women in their 20s being prepared to date men of 30 or 40.

@Holowiwi

Imagine a man who is 35, 6 feet tall, keeps himself in good shape, is doing well financially and is confident. Such a man can basically date women from 23 upwards quite easily. Men do not have any problems dating down socioeconomically. They do not prioritise the same qualities women may look for in a man. And this just a question not an attack but why would such a man date your friends when there are a lot more options available to him?

Honestly some friends of mine that fit this criteria have complained about the quality of women in the UK and have increasingly developing relationships with women from abroad.

I guess there is a disconnect somewhere.

Because an actual relationship involves not finding someone vaccuous, immature and annoying. The type of men who want to date 20 year olds in their 40s have done all older women a favour - as you say not wasting time on losers!

@LolaSmiles

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them? There's having standards and having standards.

If their list of criteria is something like:
Must have reasonable employment history and not have red flags for being a cocklodger in waiting
Needs to have no baggage like a divorce in progress, kids from previous relationship that will limit a future relationship, etc
Needs to treat me with respect
Needs to be attractive to me
Needs to have similar values to me
Needs to want the same sort of relationship as me (eg on the same page about marriage, kids, allocation of working and domestic load)
Needs to believe in a fair and equitable allocation of financial and domestic responsibility

Then they're reasonable. Why would you want to date a man child who thinks you're his mum, sulks if you're not in the mood for sex, and expects a gushing outpouring of praise for putting his pants in the laundry?

If their standard involves only wanting a man who earns above a certain number, will only consider certain careers, has a long list of physical qualities that are non-negotiable, will rule out any man who doesn't wine and dine her well enough, expects a man to have exactly the same hobbies, exactly the same life philosophy, exactly the same political views, a set dress sense, etc
Then they're probably being so picky that they're missing out on perfectly nice guys in favour of a fantasy.

I agree totally with your first list.

But why should the second be "nice to haves" e.g. if you have a good career you would have more in common with someone who does too? If you earn a fair bit having a very low earning partner who can't pay their way in doing things you enjoy like holidays/ meals out etc would be awkward and these types of things added together also mean they probably have very different priorities, opinions, frames of reference, interests, topics of conversation, hobbies etc so there would be little in common. Not in all cases, but most. They aren't all individual factors: they are in many ways interdependent and a lack of any commonality usually means no spark.

[quote coronaway]@SilenceIsNotAvailable I think that is mainly based on one study which apparently was misinterpreted. The wording was a bit clunky and said something like 'partner not present' on one of the questions referring to whether their partner was in the room or not when being asked the question. Apparently this was misinterpreted to mean single/not partnered up. If this is true then that changes the findings quite a bit.

Also I've seen studies which suggest permanently single men are the happiest group - not married men. Now this could be because a certain type of man chooses to remain single and such a man has certain characteristics which improve their life in such a way as to make them happier on the whole.

The other thing to keep in mind is single men include a large portion of men who have gone through a divorce which was initiated by their wife (as the majority of divorces are - probably because the men were hopeless but that's another point ). Naturally that is going to have a big impact on the finding of these studies. I'm not sure how much weighting we can put on these 'findings' as normally they're just there to create a catchy headline.

I think there are some good, balanced points in this thread. Personally I know I'm too preoccupied with certain traits in a man which is hindering my dating chances. Telling myself to change doesn't work though, it feels more like a strong instinct or pull to keep going after the same type of men even though I know this is an illogical way to date.

Had I been born 30 years earlier I'm sure sociatal pressure would have been too great for me to remain single. I do wonder whether I would have been happier however if that pressure was present (even though I'm all for personal choice / freedom).[/quote]
There have been various longitudinal studies like the ATUS on reported here. AFAIK the research is pretty robust and comes from various decent studies across countries and cultures. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Happy to be disproved though.

P.S. Many women have also got divorced, regardless of who instigated proceedings! But I believe some good studies like this one differentiated between "have always been unmarried and no kids" and "separated with kids" and "separated no kids" etc.

I was thinking about this a bit more. A huge proportion of my male friends paired off (with women) at university or FE college or relatively soon after and the vast majority of them are still together, some married, generally with children.

There were others who were more interested in having fun... and that's where they're still at. I just don't see them ever settling in the same way or staying settled.

And I can think of some who settled a bit later (think late 20s / 30s) because they met The One. Whereas my paired-off-at-uni friends were probably much more able to build relationships with all manner of different women and therefore didn't need to find The One.

@TomPinch that's interesting. I didn't know anybody from college/ university - male or female - who married or had kids before the age of 28. Everyone was in their 30s. The only people I know who married or had children in their early 20s were people who left school after GCSEs. Maybe there are weird bubbles of different norms based on all kinds of socioeconomic, cultural and even regional factors.

many men do not choose wives who can have an equal partnership with them
'Equal' would fall outside of the comfort zone, it's too close to the point where she could actually better him in some way and that would make him feel very threatened. Better to keep her as subordinated as possible...

@coronaway sorry, forgot the link! 🤦🏻‍♀️

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

I got married and had children btw, so no personal axe to grind here!

The healthiest and happiest population subgroup are women who never married or had children,” he said
That will be why men put sooo much effort into branding this group as madcatlady!👀

@Miasicarisatia

Women don't need to compete for the 'top' men because they can earn their own money, who would want a 'high status man' anyway Mr Primadonna bossyboots who has to be star of the show! No thank you

Agree completely!!

@Miasicarisatia

many men do not choose wives who can have an equal partnership with them 'Equal' would fall outside of the comfort zone, it's too close to the point where she could actually better him in some way and that would make him feel very threatened. Better to keep her as subordinated as possible...

It's apparent that there are certain men who think like this, and that they are usually the shallow ones in need of status/ ego boosting who generally go for much younger women. I don't think it's just about looks, it's about someone naive and unchallenging and subordinate. It's awful for young women who are sucked in but certainly not a negative thing for older women as they then do not waste time on people like this who are totally unsuitable for a fulfilling relationship.

@Miasicarisatia

The healthiest and happiest population subgroup are women who never married or had children,” he said That will be why men put sooo much effort into branding this group as madcatlady!👀

Yep!!! They hate it.