When does a friendship become an affair?

[misshavershamsweddingdress]

I have been married for nearly 18 years, 2 DC, lovely home, lifestyle, good and kind husband (!) etc etc. But he has a female friend he has known for much longer than me, on and off over many years, periods of not being in touch and I think they have had a physical relationship at some point in the distant past (not completely sure). In the past two years his contact with her has become more frequent, at least every other day, if not daily and he won't let me see the messages they send to each other. Occasionally he will lock the bathroom door and I can hear talking from him but nothing in reply. At what point is this friendship more than that? Is it already?

OP, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Your OH has behaved very badly and it must be devastating.

Do take all the time you need to decide what you do next. These threads are great for giving support and a place to process what's happening but remember only you really know him. Don't be swayed by opinions here or comparisons with other people's relationships, however similar they may be. This is your life, not anyone else's, and you need to come to the decision that is right for you, your marriage and your family.

I wish you well

You need to speak to someone in real life. He's relying on your shame to keep it secret but that only protects him and hurts you more. It's him that should be ashamed, you've done nothing wrong!!

Have you thought about how you will leave / kick him out? Even if this is something you would like to work through, that takes 2 of you to try. If he is refusing to acknowledge the problem and change his behaviour I'm not sure you have many other options but to leave. I suspect that's what he wants but is too much of a coward to force your hand.

Just knowing how close they have bonded would be enough for me to make the break. It's such an intimate thing. I know deep down I could never be happy with him again so what's the point? He's hoping the more he says they're just friends the more likely you are to believe him. But I think you know they're not.
I'm sorry you're going through this though, such a terrible betrayal. How could someone you love do this to you

You are protecting him by not talking about this. I would go absolutely NUCLEAR! You need to discuss this with every friend and relative and show them screenshots. Humiliate HIM. He's the one acting like a fool, not you.

How can he keep up the "good friends" line when you have seen intimate photos and read intimate texts? How would he feel if you sent naked photos of yourself to a male friend? Would he think that's OK? Of course he bloody wouldn't.

To be honest he can say it's whatever. His opinion is now irrelevant. You can decide it's a breaking point for you no matter what he calls it, if you want to.

The fact he shows no remorse and doesn't think he's done anything wrong to be honest makes it worse!

You’re doing amazing OP.

How many of his other good friends does he exchange intimate photos with? That isn't what friends do. I feel angry with him on your behalf that he's persisting with this good friends stance when it's clearly much more than that. He is taking the piss. Sending hugs - you're much better off without this moron.

Your H’s primary relationship is with this OW, and he is treating you and the children with utter contempt. He feels entitled to conduct his sexual/emotional affair right there under your roof. As his agenda is to continue his double life, he will deny infidelity and stonewall you til the cows come home.

Miss H, he is confident that you won’t take any real action. Prove him wrong. You don’t need his admission of wrongdoing to end this charade.

Take your time, there's no deadline to sorting this out, you need to process everything. When my DH did this the final straw for me was the lack of remorse and any effort bring put in by him when I was frantically searching the internet for tips to help me rebuild my trust in him. I realised then that I was the only one working on our marriage. It took a further 18 months (thanks covid) to us actually moving out of the marital home and into separate houses but I don't regret the time it took. It gave me the opportunity to come to terms with everything and took the heat out of the situation. We now co-parent reasonably well so far even though deep down I still think he's a dick.
So deep breath, talk to someone in real life (I couldn't have done this without my best friend's support) and I wish you well.

This isn't right.
You know it and he knows it.
I feel very sad that you are treated this way but if my partner had a friendship with someone and I found they were exchanging intimate photos that would be the final straw.
You can't unsee those pics.
The lack of respect for you is terrible and I know it is easy for us all to be on this forum advising you from afar but you know deep down that you deserve so much more.
I would rather be on my own then worrying about him and his friendship.
No after how hard it is.
It almost seems that he is pushing you to be the one to end the relationship.
Be nice, get evidence and a good solicitor.
He doesn't deserve you.

Ps you are so much better than the pair of them. Appalling behaviour from both of them. Hold your head up high. Start getting hard. This isn't right.

Hi OP - hope you are OK and getting some support in real life. Thinking of you.

When my DH did this the final straw for me was the lack of remorse and any effort bring put in by him when I was frantically searching the internet for tips to help me rebuild my trust in him

I agree with this. Hope you have confided in a real life friend OP.

So many women spend years trying to figure it all out fairly unilaterally. I think the lack of remorse aspect is key. I had similar issues with my exH, secretly texting a 'friend' whose number he said he no longer had etc.
I forgave, read self help books about trust, tried joint therapy and therapy for him. It went on for years, then I'd discover repeat incidents.

Eventually he left three months into the pandemic. When I look back, basically he didn't love me or respect me enough or value the family life we had enough to put the effort into our relationship. He checked out and put his efforts elsewhere.

I do think quite a few men out there just don't value what they have and I don't know why this is. There's a grass is greener mindset. Except when they get to the other field, after a while that grass fades too.

@misshavershamsweddingdress - are you ok? I have been thinking of you this weekend.

Sorry for the silence. I went to stay with a friend for a couple of nights, left him with the DC and took some time out. Last night I told him that it really has to be me or her, it can't be both. He doesn't seem to be remorseful at all, still standing by the friendship story. I've asked him to leave for a few days so that we both have had some space. I know there's a high chance he will go to her but I'm 99% sure that I've made up my mind now, especially after looking at the photos of the messages.

Thank you for updating us, I’m really shocked he thinks he can carry on with the messaging etc. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter if he says it’s a just a friendship or not you know it’s not.

Thanks for update and sorry that you are going through this. I am glad you have support in real life. I can’t believe that he considers this just a “friendship” and isn’t remotely remorseful and I am glad you have taken a tough stance.

So sorry.

Thanks for the update OP. Really glad you had some time with friends to clear your head. Friends and family who love and support you will be the best thing for you right now. Also good you have sent him off, if he does go to her then I guess in some ways you have the clarity you need.

I'm so sorry he's still denying any wrong doing. To sacrifice 18 years of marriage for something that's a fantasy really, seems daft. Especially with DC involved. But as pp have said, without him genuinely feeling remorse and wanting to fix things, there's nothing you can do. No need for rushed decisions but you seem very calm and measured, which will stand you in good stead.

Regarding the OW, I doubt she cares about you at all. Since she clearly knows you exist and what they're doing. And likely welcomes the chance to put the boot in. So it's best you don't contact her or you will feel worse. And you'll lose the moral high ground with him which will make him feel even more justified in being a dick.

I've never really understood why anyone thinks an emotional affair or inappropriate friendship are acceptable. Or why people hurt the ones they love. I think it's because when you're caught up in a lie for so long, you start to believe it, as it's the only way to live with yourself. But years down the line he will feel the remorse at how he treated you. It always catches up with people. Until then, you just do the best for you and your family.

My solicitor told me, while I was going through my divorce to a cheating H, that cheaters fall into two categories. One type will apologize forever, try to make amends and be guilt ridden while the other type will go on the offensive, lie, justify their behavior and accept no guilt whatsoever. Apparently there is little in between. So it seems that your H is the second type who will never admit that this is anything other than a friendship (and she will be of the same opinion), and even when faced with the appalling evidence will justify why he did it, and you can be sure that will mean deflecting the blame onto you, while of course the fact is that only cheaters are responsible for their own behavior.

So I think you should stop wasting your time trying to get him to see that what he did was wring because he wont' admit it because that would mean doing the unthinkable and taking responsibility, and focus your energy on your future without him.

And I wouldn't recommend contacting the OW. Based on my experience she will be hostile to you and repeat all the assertions of your H, quite possibly word for word.

So chin up OP. You have the rest of your life ahead of you to do as you please and you're much better off without a lying cheat sharing it with you.

I think the old expression ‘you are flogging a dead horse’ applies here OP—- if he can’t see that what he has done is very very wrong and totally disrespectful- then he really doesn’t care anymore being honest.

Have been thinking about you OP and am really glad you got to be with a friend.

I have previously pondered a lot along the lines of the post above about why people hurt the ones they love. I think it's because when you're caught up in a lie for so long, you start to believe it, as it's the only way to live with yourself.

I think this comment is true. The DH in this situation sort of believes that their spouse is being unreasonable for feeling hurt. Or the DH has a funny interpretation of what love entails in the first place. If they do feel remorse later on I don't know.

Thinking about it. perhaps some like my DH experienced hurt in their relationships as a child and so thinking hurting loved ones is actually ok.

@misshavershamsweddingdress sorry your going through this, sending you a big hug , if he does go to her I'd take that as hes made his choice , keep your head held high you have done nothing wrong , you've got this and you will get throught it, letting go is the hardest part but just think what he has been doing that is nothing to hold on to , you deserve better it wont last between them he will soon see it wasnt as good as he thought and guaranteed he will regret what's he done and relize he has lost the best thing in his life 💐💐