He hesitated?

[stubbedtoe]

Basically this.

I've been in a classic "commitment phobe" relationship for two years and I finally gave him the "all or nothing" message.

I am not saying he wasn't committed in terms of dating other people and so on, but more in moving forward with major life commitments like moving in or buying a home.

He was always a good boyfriend, but he has an almost phobic reaction to serious commitment because he says in the past it's never worked out and he found it hard to leave so ended up miserable for years.

Initially, when I gave him the ultimatum, I cut off contact and within 36 hours he sent me a message to say he was so sorry, he really loved me, I was the love of his life and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. He even proposed and then started suggesting we look at houses together.

Then a couple of days later he seemed to second guess himself and asked for time and space away from each other so he could be sure his decision wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of losing me :(

I was devastated really by this. I felt a bit like surely you know if you love someone and want to be with them or not?

We are currently in "no contact", but he messaged me after 3 days to ask if I was okay and I didn't respond.

I am really confused here over whether or not I am being a big baby and maybe he is just being reasonable and taking time to think through a major life commitment.

OR

If a man loves you and wants to marry you, he bloody well knows it and doesn't need time and space to think about it.

What do you think? I am really confused over what to do when he comes back to me. He might come back and say he realises I am not the one (in which case no brainer) but if he comes back and says he wants to be with me and move forward, how do I react to that?

I feel a bit injured, ego wise and it's not exactly romantic.

It took six months of dating to spend more than one night in a row together, it took a year to go on a mini-break

I'd say I felt it was time we had a weekend away together. I'd ask 7 or 8 times over 3 or 4 months for him to agree a date. He'd put it off. Make excuses. Ridiculous excuses.

It seems like as soon as he became comfortable with spending more than one night together, you instantly started talking about going away for the weekend.

@stubbedtoe

I am prepared for him to come back and say he's thought it over and doesn't want to be with me.

I am just trying to work out if he comes back and says he has realised he doesn't want a life without me and he's ready to give me the full package...is this still bad?

Like that he had to think about it?

Personally for me the problem would be that this is still all language and I guess you'd like him to do things not just say them

You need to stop endlessly trying to fix a man that simply isn't that into you.

We got married after 4 years living together, wouldn't have done it any sooner and neither of us were scared of commitment.
It's a huge lifestyle change and a different life stage too.
Too many people rush in after a couple of years and wonder why it ends in divorce.

I went out with a commitment phobe 16 years ago. After the first week I got the 'its not you it's me' chat, so I asked him to leave. He struggled to let go. Then we got back together and for 18 months it was back and forth, were we an item or weren't we? We even lived together as house mates (more like bed mates). I then moved out, across the road and we had to still cross each others paths. We decided it was best we didn't see each other again and I went away for a few weeks to the Middle East and whilst I was there I got an email from a friend to tell me he'd been asking after me, so I met up with him when I came home and he admitted he loved me, first time he'd ever said it. Two months later we moved in together, 6 months later I was pregnant and two years later we were married. Been together 16 years now and have two kids and are best friends. We both grew up and realised what we had.

Sometimes it takes losing something to realise what you had.

He's 41! He is not going to wake up tomorrow and have an epiphany that will make him crave commitment, marriage, house, kids, the lot. If he wanted these things, he would have sought therapy himself years ago - for himself.

2 years is more than enough time to decide if someone is the right person for you or not, and if you want to progress the relationship. He will not learn any new information about you in 1, 2, 3 years time that he does not already know. Unfortunately, he is someone who will always have one foot out the door on any major commitment, and you will spend the rest of your life negotiating with him. This is not healthy for either of you.

Taking space from a person to decide if you want to be with them forever is bonkers. A relationship is not spent apart, so any feelings you have when not together are not representative of how you feel when spending every day of your life together. Space works if you've been through some major trauma or challenge and need time apart to get perspective - not for someone to figure out if they want to be with you.

You are not his mother, his therapist or his priest and it is not your role to help an adult man figure out what he wants from his life. He knew from the start what you wanted - loving you would have meant accepting he can't give it to you and letting you go. Not dithering, changing his mind, constant push and pull.

Do you really want this situation everytime a big life decision needs to be made? Where he refuses, you then give an ultimatum and break up, he then agrees, then changes his mind a few days later, rinse, repeat. There are people out there who want the same things as you, and want it with you.

Love is not enough. Peace of mind, security and stability are important. Trusting that he won't wake up one day and leave you because he really hates commitment and resents you for forcing him into it. It is lose-lose because you are not compatible. Your communication styles, relationship styles, and emotional requirements are not compatible.

Don't waste more time on this man. Call it quits for good. You deserve better than for someone to need space from you to decide if you're the person they want to be with forever. There's enough people out there that make these decisions WITH their partner IN a relationship, so you're not asking for the moon.

You deserve certainty. And someone who doesn't have all the baggage and issues this man does - he should get them resolved on his own time, not waste yours. You will be so much more at peace if you walk away and give yourself the chance to meet someone who gives you that certainty, and is on the same page already.

If you stay, you know you'll be writing this post again in 12 months times don't you? Only a little bit sadder/angrier.

He is being sensible. You have only been in a relationship for 2 years! Why rush into marriage and buying a house together?

2 years is a looooong time when you're 41. By that age you've got life experience, you should know EXACTLY what you want. I could understand your comment if you're talking to a 24 year old who had hardly any life experience or it was only their first or second serious relationship.

But come on, when you're 41 it's bloody ridiculous to claim the only reason you don't want to settle down with someone is because you're a commitment-phobe. It's been two years! It's long enough to know for sure. He clearly just doesn't have the guts or respect to come out and tell OP that he is very fond of her but he doesn't want to settle down with her in any way and would just prefer to carry on as they are, and keep it relatively casual. ACtually it doesn't even sound like he LIKES OP that much if he is not jumping at the chance for a fun weekend away or taking her to a family party.....

Hmm, I'm not sure op. Co-hab is vastly over rated. If I could afford to live apart from my DH, but not split up, then I would! But it's just not the done thing socially is it...

Doesn't mean I'm not committed to him.

Why are you so keen to move in and why would that be a forward step?

Ultimately if you just want different things maybe it's best to split up. I wouldn't assume he's stringing you along though.

@Feedingthebirds1 Thank you lovely.

These are words he has heard a hundred times. He knows this, but it's like battling a demon really. Fear does funny things to a person. We can have conversations where I lay it out just like that, but it won't get through because he doesn't really believe he deserves my love and he's waiting for the catch. He has said so many times that he doesn't understand why someone like me loves him, that he's always waiting for the shoe to drop. That he's always waiting for Jeremy Beadle to jump out and tell him it's all a joke and I am gone.

I don't think everyone here necessarily fully understands what it's like dealing with someone who has such a deeply negative outlook on their future.

He says he wants our future, it's his dream, his happy place, he just struggles to picture himself in it because he doesn't have faith that good things work out for him.

His dreadful past relationships were a result of what he feels worthy of (generally toxic and abusive) and that's familiar to him. What we have and the love he gets it's something he says he loves having but feels he hasn't earned.

There is a lot of pain in there, that I've had some success with, but maybe not enough. It's painful and makes me feel like a failure.

My now DH was similar when we met. We were together a decade before we got married and had a child. I was younger so had the time. If you're in your mid thirties and want children I'd cut and run.
It's not insurmountable but it won't stop being an issue. Eg we tried to conceive for over a year and when I finally did he went white threw up. I'm still glad we have managed to make it work but I'm not sure I'd advise my DD's to put up with what I did to get here.

He won't come back saying he wants to walk away - that's not the modus operandi. He'll come back saying he wants to stay together but isn't ready to progress but will be soon.
Only you can decide how you want to respond to that

He sounds very fond of you... but is having to think about whether he feels more? Throw his fond in a pond ! Alice Walker's poem:

I’m really very fond of you,
he said.

I don’t like fond.
It sounds like something
you would tell a dog.

Give me love,
or nothing.

Throw your fond in a pond,
I said.

But what I felt for him
was also warm, frisky,
moist-mouthed,
eager,
and could swim away

if forced to do so.

@stubbedtoe

But why do you think you can fix him and his past trauma? And why on earth are you feeling guilty for not being able to help him feel worthy? If it were that easy, qualified therapists wouldn't exist...

OP, it seems like you too are defining your self worth by this relationship. It isn't healthy to be with someone wanting them to change. And it isn't healthy for you to think you need to coach someone into loving you and himself.

You are in love with his potential, not who he is. You have an idealised version of how he COULD be if he could just open love, love himself, have better self esteem etc. But that is just fantasy. You can either choose to spend a lifetime waiting for this man to appear, or accept that it won't. If at 41 it hasn't, it will be many many years before he can even be the sort of man you want. If at all.

A relationship where one person needs to change to make the other happy is not a relationship. Let him go, and find someone who isn't a project.

Actually, OP, look at what you wrote: We are currently in "no contact", but he messaged me after 3 days to ask if I was okay and I didn't respond.

Messaging is NOT a good method of communication in a relationship as toxic and manipulative as this. It just perpetuates the drama and angst, leaving one hanging, and both playing guessing games. God, it wastes so much time and energy but I guess some people like the drama and somehow convince themselves that it's all part of a passionate relationship.

What will you do if he DOESN'T send a further message? It honestly sounds like YOU would end up texting HIM! Chasing him, when actually he might be quite happy to just leave it......

[quote stubbedtoe]@Gilda152 that's a bit unfair.

The breakups would work like this.

I'd say I felt it was time we had a weekend away together. I'd ask 7 or 8 times over 3 or 4 months for him to agree a date. He'd put it off. Make excuses. Ridiculous excuses.

I'd go, very calmly and lovingly and say that travelling with my partner was a really important part of what I wanted from a relationship, and ask to talk about it. We'd agree we would go away.

2 - 3 months would pass and we'd not go away.

I'd approach it again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'd reach the end of my tether and say I was out of the relationship. 48 hours later, he'd book a weekend away and apologise and ask me to come back.

Breaking up became a tool by which it was the only possible way to get progress. Sad and toxic, but in his mind he said the anxiety of whatever he was anxious about seemed like nothing compared to the anxiety of life without me.

So the breakups almost cured him temporarily of the commitment phobia, because I was gone.[/quote]
Ditch it. If he doesn't fancy a weekend away with you, I think you have the answer, sorry.

OMG find someone who isn't scared to go on holiday with their girlfriend, that's just ridiculous. I have a friend who still hasn't moved in with his girlfriend of 6 years, but he doesn't have a problem with going away. Hardly a commitment is it!

I was with a commitment phobic man for 10 years. Always hoping for more-marriage and kids. He then decided after 10 years at the age of 30 that he didn't feel how he should about me and left. I was devastated. It was awful.

However I moved on. I dated various men. Had some fun. He then wanted to come back. I did think about it but decided I didn't want to go back to all that uncertainty. I am very glad I didn't as I then met my husband and we went on to have two children. If the commitment phobic bf had not left I would probably still have been hanging in there in a limbo waiting in vain for something more.

You sound very patient & understanding, but I must say, I'd find this level of introspection, discussion and soul searching before someone could book a night away draining.

Do you find yourself not suggesting nice things to do, or talking about your plans in case he gets rattled?

Awh, I feel for you, it's really tough.

Neither of you has done anything wrong imo. It's just that you're not compatible. You've been honest with each other from the start, it seems, and 2 years down the line no clear resolution has been reached. So i think, sadly, that's your answer there.

It is OK to want commitment, to want marriage/home/security. To want to feel like your partner is proud of you and totally into you. These are important values to you. Why should you have to compromise on these? Living against your values is a sure-fire way to be unhappy and unfulfilled, however much you love someone.

I think it's time for him to let you go, and be free to live without the constant fear and pain of rejection, and perhaps free to meet someone else who IS compatible with your values.

TLDR version: tell him to shit or get off the pot.

@litterbird

Poor guy, he’s already messed up with hurt from past relationships and you are having break up after breakup, stonewalling him and going no contact. I think he is being sensible here and re evaluating if you are the person for him right now. Give the poor bloke a chance to heal, it can’t be done on your timeline. It will take years, if ever.

@litterbird

I was thinking the same. In my relationship I'm the one that's scared. My partner and I currently live on opposite ends of the country and I'm using that time to work through my issues. I've been abused, cheated on and stayed in situations that are absolutely horrifying.

The thought of him breaking up with me because I'm not moving at his pace or even giving me ultimatums makes me beyond sick to my stomach. I've been very clear that I love him, that he's my 'End Game' but I have things to work through myself to get to that point. We are committed and beyond in love with each other, and i could NEVER imagine him doing that or how I would feel going through that at any given point. That would remove any and all security I've built with him.

@ClawedButler

Awh, I feel for you, it's really tough.

Neither of you has done anything wrong imo. It's just that you're not compatible. You've been honest with each other from the start, it seems, and 2 years down the line no clear resolution has been reached. So i think, sadly, that's your answer there.

It is OK to want commitment, to want marriage/home/security. To want to feel like your partner is proud of you and totally into you. These are important values to you. Why should you have to compromise on these? Living against your values is a sure-fire way to be unhappy and unfulfilled, however much you love someone.

I think it's time for him to let you go, and be free to live without the constant fear and pain of rejection, and perhaps free to meet someone else who IS compatible with your values.

TLDR version: tell him to shit or get off the pot.

I completely agree with you.

Don't compromise on your values, OP - too many women post on here 7 years down the line from where you are here, with 2 young children, a house not in their name and no security because they didn't want to seem "pushy" about getting married.

Equally, he is allowed to not want to give you that security if he doesn't feel like you are "the one".

Find the person who wants to marry you with all his heart and soul, and without all this humming and hawing. 2 years is plenty of time to know if you have a long-term future.

Thinking on the basis of what has happened with me I would walk away. IME if a man wants to marry you he does.

My ex didn't want marriage. He knew I did. He proposed. I wore the ring. He wouldn't discuss getting married. I left him. Met dh. Asked if he wanted to get married and have children at the end of our date. I said didn't have to be to me as the blood drained from his face . 2.10 years later he proposed. Within hours we'd picked the date and married nine months later.

@stubbedtoe

I am prepared for him to come back and say he's thought it over and doesn't want to be with me.

I am just trying to work out if he comes back and says he has realised he doesn't want a life without me and he's ready to give me the full package...is this still bad?

Like that he had to think about it?

Yes it is still pretty bad. I cannot imagine a world in which DH would have gone off to think about whether he wanted to be with me.

I believe the second option in your first post, that if a man (or woman) loves you and wants to be with someone, he (or she) just knows it. If he came back now saying yes, I would be always thinking he just said it to keep the status quo, but it still not really sure.

I think a few people are projecting onto this thread with the idea of the classic man who strings you along like in Cosmo magazine or something. It's not like that at all. We're nothing like FWB. We go to weddings together, we look after each other when we're sick, we cook dinner together, he fixes the toilet, we have anniversaries, I am his next of kin on his new passport, I am his relationship status on social media, he drinks his morning coffee out of a mug with my face on it, he holds my hand through scary times. We are family. We've been saving for our house together. There's a 5, 10 and 20 years plan. We have a life and a future on paper.

It was hard to get there, but we do.

He took 18 months to say "I love you", now he says it 5 or 6 times a day.

The point isn't really those sorts of things, it's that the fear is always there causing him to hesitate with everything. I waited a lot of years to meet the love of my life (I am also 41) and living 45 minutes apart and paying two rents whilst saving for a house at our age isn't practical. Stuff like moving in together is meant to be happy and exciting, not some dreadful hell to endure. Doing this with someone who's resistant to every normal life stage and can't see the future in a positive light is hurtful and hard.

I didn't want to get married today or tomorrow, I just wanted to live life to the fullest and enjoy being in love and DO things instead of AVOIDING things.

And we had a row over this because basically he was considering taking a job that would have made moving in together impractical (location wise), and I saw this as moving backwards and not forwards and it wasn't because it was a great job, it was because it's a way of avoiding moving in together. I know this now, I am wise to it.

So I told him to shove it and got angry, and he sent me this message:

"I am so sorry, please forgive me. I love you. I won't take that job. You're right, this is an avoidance tactic. I want you, I want us, I want our future. I know I get scared, but nothing is more scary than the idea of life without you. I can't keep looking back all the time, I have always done this and I need to look forwards. I have been so childish, I am so sorry. I truly love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you, and I am sorry if I ever made you feel less than the most important thing in my life. I want to marry you, you're my favourite person"

Then like I said 48 hours later he wants time and space to think it all over. He says all the flip flopping and breakups made him feel unsafe and he wants to be sure that he wants to be with me out of love, rather than anxiety.

Confusing for me.