He hesitated?

[stubbedtoe]

Basically this.

I've been in a classic "commitment phobe" relationship for two years and I finally gave him the "all or nothing" message.

I am not saying he wasn't committed in terms of dating other people and so on, but more in moving forward with major life commitments like moving in or buying a home.

He was always a good boyfriend, but he has an almost phobic reaction to serious commitment because he says in the past it's never worked out and he found it hard to leave so ended up miserable for years.

Initially, when I gave him the ultimatum, I cut off contact and within 36 hours he sent me a message to say he was so sorry, he really loved me, I was the love of his life and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. He even proposed and then started suggesting we look at houses together.

Then a couple of days later he seemed to second guess himself and asked for time and space away from each other so he could be sure his decision wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of losing me :(

I was devastated really by this. I felt a bit like surely you know if you love someone and want to be with them or not?

We are currently in "no contact", but he messaged me after 3 days to ask if I was okay and I didn't respond.

I am really confused here over whether or not I am being a big baby and maybe he is just being reasonable and taking time to think through a major life commitment.

OR

If a man loves you and wants to marry you, he bloody well knows it and doesn't need time and space to think about it.

What do you think? I am really confused over what to do when he comes back to me. He might come back and say he realises I am not the one (in which case no brainer) but if he comes back and says he wants to be with me and move forward, how do I react to that?

I feel a bit injured, ego wise and it's not exactly romantic.

I think it really just a case of you two just not being compatible.

It's perfectly alright for you to want to progress the relationship and you were honest with him at the start. He's spent two years procrastinating and that has hurt you. He's even turned it around and said that you've made him more insecure because you have walked away when the relationship wasn't going the way you hoped despite you being clear from the beginning. And for you that was personal and painful because it felt like rejection everytime you pushed to move forward.

Taking that long to spend two nights in a row together is very odd and I think would make most people feel like their self worth has been dented. But having to push isn't right.

He wants to take a more meandering approach to it all, but that's not right for you. It's clear from your questioning of your worth that it's actually damaging to you. So, as much as you love him (each other) it doesn't sound like a good fit.

If a guy wants you he will do what ever it takes to be with you. The fact that you are contemplating not being what he wants, is very sad and you shouldn't have to keep second guessing or pining after someone for so long. 18 months to meet his family and 6 months before overnights in a row is far to long in my opinion.

If he wants you he will make an effort to be with you and show you long term commitment, not dangle a carrot of possibilities and maybes to you. Clearly you are on two different pages and it's not up to you to change him or convince him, if he has issues with commitment he needs to handle that with therapy and let you move on so that you can meet someone who may not string you along and be with someone who knows what they want.

2 years isn't that long for someone to know 100% what they want but you should have an idea by now and he shouldn't hesitate every time it's time to make a life decision as a couple and clearly he's not ready for what you want.

Either you have no contact and simply move on with your life or give him an ultimatum and see where it goes. Be prepared to have to walk away from this situation and stay strong. I know heartbreak sucks.

I am prepared for him to come back and say he's thought it over and doesn't want to be with me.

I am just trying to work out if he comes back and says he has realised he doesn't want a life without me and he's ready to give me the full package...is this still bad?

Like that he had to think about it?

Now you've updated and said that you've orchestrated repeated mini breaks up - I understand his position even more. You do not represent security to him anymore than he does to you.

There is a quote somewhere that says where you find one commitment phobe you will always find two.

It's probably time for some self-reflection OP.

You're just not compatible. And honestly, having seen the fallout a couple of years back from a friend's marriage (and I am the friend of the commitment-phobe, not the spouse who pushed for the commitment), I would urge you to think very carefully before returning to this relationship.

My friend had a total horror of change, and a history of longterm (6 years plus) long-distance relationships where he was happy with just the occasional overnight stay until the women invariably broke up with him for someone who wasn't so horrified of change and didn't need to be coaxed into every little further step of intimacy like going away for a weekend. Oh, he talked the talk about wanting marriage and children, but he carefully did nothing to advance either.

Until one of these longterm, long-distance girlfriends made a different decision to her predecessors and proposed (I think in part because she was getting older and wanted children) and, after a lot of agonising, he said yes. Which led her straight to a grim sort of life where she did literally everything from organising the wedding to doing job searches for him to do all the housework, managing finances and all child-related work on top of working FT -- because he was 'fragile' and 'damaged', and the whole thing was her idea. He refused to live with her till after the wedding on the grounds of what his parents (who lived in another country and were just delighted he'd found someone) might think. I really think their marriage was based on them both thinking he was doing her a favour.

He's a well-meaning man, kind, intelligent, funny, attractive, but he's a disastrous husband. They're now divorced, and he's talking to someone he met on OLD, and the fact that she's at a distance and he has only met her once suits him perfectly. Fundamentally, he wants everything to stay exactly as it is.

Do you really want that kind of life?

@stubbedtoe

I am prepared for him to come back and say he's thought it over and doesn't want to be with me.

I am just trying to work out if he comes back and says he has realised he doesn't want a life without me and he's ready to give me the full package...is this still bad?

Like that he had to think about it?

Very sad that you have to wait like a sitting duck almost praying that you are what he wants. You are no one's option. Please remember that OP :( It seems that you have low self esteem or that you feel that you might not be good enough for him. Hang out with friends, exercise, spend time with family and focus on hobbies. If he's the right one for you, you'll know but please don't stress about him. If you have to walk away from this situation again you may just have to. Him not being sure of what he want's and stringing you along for two years where you have constantly had to break up with him due to commitment issues on his part is not really a good foundation/basis of a healthy relationship and has red flags written all over it. Sorry

crazymicrowave and all the times she's broken up with him just to want him to be a different person but gets back with anyway? How does that sit about his feelings etc? She's not offering any stability either.

This is going nowhere, sorry OP.

@Gilda152 that's a bit unfair.

The breakups would work like this.

I'd say I felt it was time we had a weekend away together. I'd ask 7 or 8 times over 3 or 4 months for him to agree a date. He'd put it off. Make excuses. Ridiculous excuses.

I'd go, very calmly and lovingly and say that travelling with my partner was a really important part of what I wanted from a relationship, and ask to talk about it. We'd agree we would go away.

2 - 3 months would pass and we'd not go away.

I'd approach it again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'd reach the end of my tether and say I was out of the relationship. 48 hours later, he'd book a weekend away and apologise and ask me to come back.

Breaking up became a tool by which it was the only possible way to get progress. Sad and toxic, but in his mind he said the anxiety of whatever he was anxious about seemed like nothing compared to the anxiety of life without me.

So the breakups almost cured him temporarily of the commitment phobia, because I was gone.

Worth saying, his pattern is therefore:

Anxious about taking steps to commitment
Stubbedtoe breaks up with him
Anxiety about commitment disappears and is replaced with anxiety over losing Stubbedtoe

This has been the toxic cycle, which he says has re-enforced the idea I am not stable and safe, but I'd re-iterate, those breakups were probably with hindsight breakups I should have stuck with.

He would just always come back, willing, begging, asking me to stay and he would give me the whole package and be the best boyfriend ever and he was just scared but loved me so much.

It's a mindf**k to be on the other end of that and I know I am guilty of playing the game too, but it's not easy when you're in it because you love the person and you keep thinking it will get fixed.

So contextually, this whole "shit or get off the pot" ultimatum and him asking for space, is, I suppose, him recognising that he makes decisions based on anxiety.

So he said he thought, no matter how desperate he felt to be with me, he wanted time and space to make sure he was making the decision out of love and not anxiety.

If you are in the ultimatum zone its already over.

My worry, I suppose, is that he comes back and says "you're not for me" in which case all this navel gazing and fear of commitment for two years was really that he just didn't want to be with ME.

Which is a horrible way to feel at the best of times, but even less so when you've made so many sacrifices and given so much love to someone you thought really loved you.

He’ll come back and say he wants you. On his terms.

Are you sure you want him?

People have different personalities and are generally cautious about making decisions. I know the Hollywood idea of relationships is that you wouldn't have to think things through and just know you want to spend the rest of your life with someone but for some people they would always want time to reflect that they're making the right decision.

Best wishes going forward with whatever you decide.

So you did self reflect for a second there saying you were guilty of playing the game too. It makes you equally culpable for the fact this relationship is toxic and not serving either of you. Having been there previously (trying to mould someone unmouldable - if only he'd see how happy we could be if he just...etc etc) you are at good point here where you can let this go. After so many break ups and ultimatums , regardless of who's fault it is, this is a non relationship. What matters to you simply does not to him. And vice versa. That's fine, acceptance is key.

It sounds exhausting. It's not supposed to e
be this difficult.

What do you want out of life? How much longer are you prepared to spend waiting for him to work out whether he wants to be with you?

Well, while I am indulging in acting weak and needy here, I haven't put that across to him. I faked being strong and just told him I deserved someone who knew 100% they wanted a life with me and was willing to put 100% into it with no hesitation.

I think maybe he understands that and sees he's been hurting me (he's a good person) so he probably genuinely wanted time to properly reflect on whether or not he wants to spend the rest of his life with me.

I hope he does, but I am not sure how I get over the bruised ego of him needing time away from me to figure that out!

Also, so what if he doesn't want to commit to you specifically? What if he did and you
then lived a full rest of your life nagging him to go on weekend breaks etc with you against his wishes, is that the life you want? Because you undoubtedly deserve better, we all do.

It’s not always true that if ‘a person knows they want to marry you, they know and don’t need time...’
It is like that in movies but not necessarily in real life. And not after bad relationship experiences.

I have a good friend who has been married for a long time now. With kids and are still quite happy.
However, before they did - they dated for a while and she gave him an ultimatum and they broke up for about 6 months.
It took that long.

I would not have given him a time of day when he came back. But she was zen and quite confident in herself and their relationship. She knew he needed that time. And, with a benefit of hindsight - she was right.

Not saying you need to give him another chance - but just saying don’t be so black/white.

If he really loved you and wanted to be with you for ever it would be a no brainer for him. I think you know this yourself.

This relationship has been difficult from the very start. You've had to push and negotiate to get him to do even tiny things like spend a weekend together.

You describe a very clear pattern of him only being interested in you when he thinks he has lost you. This has persisted for 4 years now.

Even if he agrees to get married and sets a date for the summer there will be no peace or security in this relationship for you. You won't know if he really wants to be with you or if you have coerced him into it. You will always be waiting for him to push you away again.

Deep down you know the two of you don't have a long term future together. Why are you settling for this? Leave him now and mean it. Even if it means being on your own for a couple of years it's going to be better for you than this.

Faking who you are 2 years in?? OP, NO. I want to come round and slap you and also cuddle you!! Does faking who you are sound like something you do with your life partner?? Of course it isn't. You'll live you whole life inauthentically, you are short changing yourself massively. Please don't, you deserve and will get more when you release yourself from this shambles. He might be a fabulous person, but he can't give you what you want and he's not too blame for that, it's just a misalignment.

Living together aside. You have to cajole, plead and remind him to go on a mini break with you?

What should be a fun weekend away you have to basically beg him to do it?

That isn't commitment phobia. And as they say in dragons den- that "would be enough for me. I'm out."

*'I really liked him and we were in love'
*
That says it all tbh. Doesn't sound like your in love anymore. Think you need to let this one go.

Also you've only been together 2 years, all these mini break ups must've been pretty close together?

All or nothing seems a bit extreme given these circumstances, you've battered his sense of security.

Seriously? Can you really be arsed with all this malarkey? Life is a series of commitments from “let’s meet for dinner tonight” to trying for a baby. Do you really want to have to threaten the end of the relationship Every Single Time? He knew all along he had a problem with commitment. He knew from the very beginning you wanted commitment. Yet he chose to carry on dating you.

I knew six months into the relationship that you had intimacy issues and fear of commitment and I very kindly, gently, (I hope) went to you and told you I recognised it and had empathy but I was very worried about getting further in the relationship because I had concerns it would be painful for me.

You told me you realised you had issues you needed to fix, but you were in love with me and our relationship was loving and positive in a way you had never experienced before, and if I was game, you wanted to try.

Over two years my life has been hugely affected by this. In practical terms, there are elements of life we all get excited about - going on holiday with a boyfriend, sharing Christmas together, waking up next to him every morning. These are natural parts of falling in love with the right person and enjoying it.

Its been marred all the way through by having to deal with someone who wants those things but simultaneously finds them terrifying.

You're 41 and I recognise that you are finally healing, in therapy, learning about yourself and working through your wounds to have a healthy, intimate attachment to me but that took a massive amount of love, sacrifice and patience on my behalf.

I have put so much love into this relationship, so much. I never wanted to 'fix' you, I'm not the rescuing type, but I really properly love you and saw that we would be so happy together (which I think we are)

Some people would say "walk away, what a waste of life" and others say "be patient, poor guy" and that's a pretty good reflection of how I feel inside because it is honestly so difficult to love someone who is afraid of love.

Perhaps I was wrong to breakup with you lots of times but others would argue I was wrong not to break up with you and not turn back. It's very difficult to experience what it feels like for someone to hesitate to fully love you.

It means you miss out on living fully, not just as a couple but individually. There's so much joy in the process of falling in love and starting a life with someone and it's hurtful when they put obstacles between that all the time.

Op you wrote a very eloquent post about how you feel a few posts back. I was struck by the depth of feeling you conveyed. So I hope you don't mind, I've reproduced it above with a few edits so that it's written to him, not to us on MN. I really hope you'd feel able to send it, in that form, to him. If he doesn't get it after that, he either never will or it will take so long that you can't stay with him for the hurt and frustration it's causing you.

@stubbedtoe

I am just feeling like this is a lose / lose situation.

Either he comes back and says he realises I am not what he wants, in which case he has dicked me about for a long time

Or he comes back and says after careful consideration, I will do. I'm not sure if anyone else sees it that way or if I am being stupid here but I am having a hard time with him hesitating between "all or nothing" with me

I think you're being harsh here.

I'm not sure that he's saying that you'll do.

He could well be weighing up whether he's ready to make the biggest decision of his life. A forever commitment. He'd be coming back and saying I'm ready to spend the rest of my life with you. Not, you'll do.

I was totally in love with my husband but still took ages to decide to get married as I wanted to be as certain as I could be that it was forever. I had no interest in dating anyone else, my heart was his, but I wanted to be as sure as I could be that we were right for each other and we weren't going to split up in a few years.

So far, so good!