It’s me again with the critical John Lewis obsessed parents who mean well

[TooStressyTooMessy]

Hi all,

I have posted about this before (pre-Covid) under a slightly different username.

I have two DDs, age 8 and 10. Married to DH and we have been together forever (to be clear he is the father of DDs).

I used to have a great (or so I thought) relationship with my parents until I had children. They mean well and absolutely adore our DDs. HOWEVER, I find being with them incredibly stressful. They live a few hours away so are not really involved in our day-to-day lives although we speak on the phone.

They very much want to be ‘fun’ grandparents and this is where the problems start. They think we are too strict, especially DH. They do not like any kind of discipline at all, eg if we told them to use a knife and fork at the table, not to rub off from the table, asked them to help us tidy their rooms, then my parents would view that as too strict. They do not like the children to cry or be sad when they visit or we visit them. I suppose they are Disney grandparents. That would be fine, that is the joy of being grandparents. Except if we tell the kids off for anything at all then my parents eye roll, tut, and often have to go and have a lie down because they get so upset to see a child upset. I really wish I was joking. We can never play a board game or anything like that with them as they become sad if DC lose and get upset.

I am absolutely not too strict and neither is DH although he is stricter than me. I have really struggled with discipline and did a parenting course when they were younger where I was told in no uncertain tones that I needed to be stricter. So I am by no means an ogre.

Basically they hate DH (loved him pre kids), think I am too strict and not capable of parenting, and think the children are growing up in a terrible environment. There is NO abuse. They really just do seem to think that setting boundaries and parenting, eg telling a child it is bedtime and asking them to turn off the telly, asking them not to run off in a busy street (ore-Covid) is cruel.

I got lots of advice on here and actually eventually stood up to them. Told them I was an adult, DH and I are the parents not them. We saw them one more time which was tense but ok and then Covid came.

Of course Covid itself has been truly horrific. But not having to see my parents has been wonderful .

They are coming up for a weekend in May when overnight stays are allowed. I am dreading it. I am already stressed and nagging DH to fix some stuff around the house which needs to be done before they come. I times my Dad one visit and it took him seconds to criticise something from walking in. So DH and I are arguing about it which is the usual way of things and makes me stressed before I have even seen them. He is also upset as it is obvious they do not like him.

They have already suggested us going to the nearest City for a John Lewis shopping trip. I have said no and my mum was surprised and disappointed. I have already said repeatedly that a busy town centre is not a relaxing environment when they will then want to take DDs in and be surprised they want to buy everything in sight. Let alone with the Covid situation - it is not a fun experience! They live not too far from London and can easily go to John Lewis there so I am not depriving them!

I realise this is an opportunity to move forward. It has been over a year since we saw them. I am desperate not to go back to feeling like a child desperate for their approval and them making it clear they think we are bad parents. They are not involved in my parenting usually so why do I feel on show so much when they do come?

TLDR: any tips on moving forward with a more adult relationship with my parents after the natural break of lockdown.

You sound like a lovely person who has a seriously dysfunctional relationship with your parents.

You say that you were a “good” child, in reality you were trained early on to always do what was expected so that your parents didn’t behave in the way that they are now.

You understood that you had to behave in certain ways to elicit the reaction that you needed from them.

You are now trying to train your kids and DH to meet their expectation in the same way. Your DH is quite reasonably pushing back, and you can’t train your kids because it’s inconsistent.

They are expected to behave a certain way when your parents are around, and when they don’t you parents parents act badly.

I’m genuinely sorry to be blunt, because you sound lovely, but in reality I’d be amazed if your DC are really crying because they love your parents so much, it’s much more likely that they are crying because they don’t understand what is expected of them, they aren’t being “good” enough for Granny and Grandpa and they feel like they are letting you down because you keep asking them to do better.

They don't really care whether it's true or not, they enjoy the drama of it all and the criticising.

Their opinion of you is none of your business. You are not responsible for them.

I think you need to get a bit angry about this.

They come to your home and bitch about you (and especially DH) behind your back and undermine you to your face and make you feel like a shit parent. And you want everyone just to suck that up and run around catering to them at all times?
It's a totally fucked up dynamic. It's not doing your kids any favours. It will kill your marriage.

I’m genuinely sorry to be blunt, because you sound lovely, but in reality I’d be amazed if your DC are really crying because they love your parents so much, it’s much more likely that they are crying because they don’t understand what is expected of them, they aren’t being “good” enough for Granny and Grandpa and they feel like they are letting you down because you keep asking them to do better. exaclty and it's highly charged atmosphere emotionally so they're already on high alert. This idea that they will be devastated to see their GP less is fostering this dynamic that you have with them. It's recreating the same shit with your kids.

On the stress issue - often I feel a lot of us feel we have to remove the feeling of stress before we address the behaviours that are associated with that stress.

Your stress and anxiety here are going to be really hard to overcome. But you can choose the behaviours and actions that you know are linked to that stress, and do something else when you feel it.

So step one is - don’t pass your stress on yo your family. Brutally, this is your problem, not theirs. Tell your husband that if he catches you begging the kids to behave, nagging him to fix things because your parents are coming - you’d like him to gently challenge you on it, so that you can have a chance to catch yourself. Go for a walk, listen to a podcast, come and all to all of us here.

Not passing on your stress to your family may well make you feel more stressed in the short term. Because now it’s all on you and your response. And that’s where I think therapy could really help you work through your response to them.

Every time you catch yourself In this spiral I’d ask yourself ‘would I ask someone to do this for PIL? For my brother? For a good friend?’ Because that is where the line is. If it’s special to try to appease your parents and manage their bad behaviour, you’re crossing that line.

I think I love you all .

The thing is OP, you will never get their approval.

To have the visit I want would require picture perfect behaviour from my DDs (I already know this will not happen as I am aware their behaviour is always appalling with my parents sad) and my DH to smile and nod (I know him well and know he won’t do this, he will either say something or walk off angry)

Even if all these things happened, what evidence do you have that you would have the lovely happy visit you would like?

You are running around trying to get things just right so they are happy. But they will never be satisfied.

Like I said before, this is nothing to do with your parenting. You can "get it right" but the goalposts will shift again. You are stressing out your family desperately trying to meet a standard that you can never never meet because the standard will change so that you can never meet it. Your DH sees this, which is why he finds your attempts to meet an impossible goal so frustrating.

As someone said upthread, this is a game you can never win, so you need to stop playing. When you do, it will feel absolutely liberating.

The whole set up is designed so that you can never get it right.

Which is exactly what I was doing to my DH and kids. Setting them up so they couldn’t get it right

One thing you can discuss with your DH is reasonable expectations of child behaviour for the visit with GPs. Sit down with him and discuss key points that may come up, and how you both would normally deal with them. Pick a position you're both more or less ok with (if anything including slightly to his side) for each point. AGREE TO ADHERE TO THIS LIST YOURSELF. Then, sit down with the girls and explain that these are the rules, both mummy and daddy have agreed on them. Check the girls understand that any infringements will be followed by an appropriate consequence, which may be during or after said visit. So now you're all on board with a plan.

At the visit: UPHOLD THE PLAN. It will rest on you - it all falls through if you don't follow the plan. Your parents may be upset, but that is genuinely the least important thing here. The important thing is to form a team with your nuclear family, not your parents. They can be included if they would like to be, of course, but they will need to follow the plan.

We follow the above approach with difficult visits/trips with my DC and it works better than it would if we made no plan at all, trust me.

OP we’ve all thrown a lot at you on this post, so your head may be spinning a bit. It may be worth stepping back for a bit and having a bit of thinking time.
Given that your parents’ behaviour is what it is, what can you personally do differently to help yourself/DH/DC be less stressed - in the run up to their next visit, during it, and after it?
Are there any specific scenarios that come up every time, that you and DH can plan a team response to in advance?

Might be too soon for you, but I think I’d be creating a bingo card or a scorecard (either real or in my head) of things I knew or expected they would say or do, and ticking each one off as it happens - for bingo you can reward yourself at all 4 corners, a line, and house, with a scorecard you can try and predict how many points a day they’ll manage, or just amuse yourself with thinking ‘they already used that one, not very original’! This can be a shared tactic with DH, if you think you can stop yourselves getting the giggles when one of your DP hits the jackpot and actually cries...

Therapy is probably a good idea just to help you identify what it is that causes an otherwise capable woman to get the wobbles when faced with disapproval from her parents!

Hi stressy 💐

I know lots of people have said about therapy already and I’m glad you’ll think about it. I know it’s expensive (NHS seems to favour CBT mostly, which I don’t think is what you need) but you need to invest in yourself. I actually found that even the act of paying for some therapy for myself gave me a boost. I’m worth it. You are too.

I just wanted to pick up on what you said about wanting not to feel stressed etc when they are there. Decent therapy would help you reframe that. It’s not about eliminating stress - if you meet with them (I know NC is unthinkable for you right now so I’m not suggesting it) there will be stress, they will be eye rolling and doing the passive aggressive sad face bullshit even if they don’t outwardly criticise you anymore. There will be stress. What you need is to learn to sit with that - to feel it, acknowledge it, and carry on - to confront them and continue disciplining your children as you would any other day. That’s where the strength is. 💐

Sing . How lovely to ‘see’ you again. I’m sorry I dropped off the other threads. Life just got in the way with Covid (the excuse for everything these days eh ). Reframing sounds like what I need to do for sure. That and make that bingo card.

NHS therapy can take an age to arrange and you could only receive a limited number of sessions (six). I would therefore consider finding a therapist instead through the BACP website and interview such people at length before choosing any particular one to work with. Do also read the books that have been recommended to you.

I don't know whether it is available in the UK, but there is something called "forum theatre", which basically involves acting out stressful scenarios with other people and role-playing alternative endings. But apart from therapy, basically anything that will make you feel more confident as a person/parent would help.

@TooStressyTooMessy

Which is exactly what I was doing to my DH and kids. Setting them up so they couldn’t get it right

It's a lot to deal with. But you are doing so well just giving this the head space it needs. If I were you I would read Toxic Parents and sit your DH down and admit that you are scared of your parents and trying to work out how to deal with them and make it clear that you are a team with him. And try to work out a plan with him for dealing with future visits. Interactions with your parents won't be stress free but you can get more control of how you feel and deal with them more calmly.

Ah yay stressy 💐 I couldn’t remember when I name changed last so wasn’t sure if you’d recognise me :o

I also was really surprised to see your kids' ages. From the way you talk about them and their behavior and how the GPs treat them and talk about them I really thought they were toddlers.

It seems like there is a lot of infantilisation going on in these encounters and they're allowed to behave in a quite childish, spoilt way. Which I can see would be really frustrating, embarrassing and annoying for your DH. But the minute he enforces the boundaries /consequences that are used when your parents are not there, then he is this terrible ogre.

Oh ffs sorry the above post double pasted hang on

I really do feel for you though. I know what it’s like to feel like I have to change myself to appease others. Others always coming first. Panicking about any confrontation and about people thinking badly of me. Around certain people and situations I feel like I’m apologising just for daring to exist! So I’m not posting the below as a criticism, I know it’s a horrible example, but it’s because I understand how hard this is.

I’m really trying to get assertive. Because I started seeing that my 13 year old was acting the same. All these situations with friends and she was tying herself up in knots not to offend anyone or give them ammo to criticise her.

It absolutely broke my heart when she apologised to me for something that 100% was not her fault.

Basically, she had been sexually assaulted and eventually reported it, and when the SW messed us around with visits she blamed herself for having reported it and bringing all the stress into our homes. Then she blamed herself when she heard the boy was suicidal (even though he likely didn’t even know she’d reported it).

I broke down that night as I saw how I’ve made her like this. I’ve shown her that we must never rock the boat, never risk upsetting someone to have our needs met. To ignore our needs altogether. I honestly don’t think I have ever felt so distraught or guilty.
I can’t let her live like that anymore. I can’t give her that example of letting myself be trampled all over because all it’s doing is teaching her to do the same.

I was a good girl like you, but it’s really not just about being well behaved. I wasn’t abused by my parents directly - long story - but they made me like this, they’re so proud I was such a good girl but the truth is darker. I know how agonisingly hard it is to stand up to people when you’re deep in the FOG. I really do. But if you try and do it for your girls it might keep you strong. Think of their futures as strong confident women. 💐

Oh my goodness Sing your poor DD and your whole family. I really hope things are starting to improve for her

You don know everyone doubts their parenting skills, right ?
There is no instruction book, It's all trial & error.
Some people have seen their siblings parent a bit, & have a seemingly natural ease.
But actually everyone is winging it.
Your parents have set you up to constantly doubt yourself, & you are desperate for their approval. But whatever you do, it will go wrong.
Even before it happens you are worried about their criticism, your OH's stance of not accepting their invasive remarks, & the pressure you create by trying to "Prep" the kids to behave, when they know whatever they do the GPs will coo over them & forgive.
In your position. I would send them a written message, not a phone call.
Tell them whilst the DC are dying to see them, You have been happy with the distance because they always judge, & control the visits by huffing puffing whispering & setting you up to feel stressed & on the back foot,
Whereas without their judgement, your home is a harmonious, & everyone is relaxed.
So, you think they should enjoy the kids, & take them out, you won't be tagging along to be beaten with their judgement stick.
In the summer, you will come by train, or you will come with OH & stop one night, & then go off for a few nights wit DH together, & come back & collect DC.
This way, everyone gets what they want.
Clearly all of you spending time together works for no one

Ah thanks stressy 💐 sorry I know it’s not a nice example to use, and what actually happened isn’t the point (she is ok though thank you 💐) but it really showed me how our kids can pick up on how we act even in subtle ways.

@TooStressyTooMessy
My DH and all his siblings were also very good when they were DC because they were conditioned to be. If they were bold MIL would cry and FIL would huff so from a very young age they learnt not to upset them.

They are all adults now and either do not speak to their parents or lie to them about most of their life because they are still huffing and crying to get their own way. They do not recognise that they are all adults, all the problems in any of their relationships are always the other partners because their DC can do no wrong until it comes to their DGC, then we are all apparently terrible parents as we do such monstrous things as say no, have bedtimes, table manners, no running around in restaurants, no biscuits for breakfast and making them shower when they didn't want to and loads of other heinous crimes.

What I am saying is they did not parent their dc, they fed and clothed them but only MIL is allowed to have emotions, even now. Nothing was ever discussed as it would upset them etc.

And I am like your DH I will not pander to them. Fuck them. I tell them they are ridiculous when they are sulking because we actually parent or when I will not rush to the GP with every little sniffle and they hate me, I know they hate me but they have learnt to wind their neck in and not complain to me so they complain away about us but not to our face.

You cannot win, you cannot keep them happy and have being brainwashed since your were young to not upset them. FUCK THAT. You are an adult, you are a great parent, back your DH up, you chose him, you did not choose your parents.

Do not ruin your marriage to try and keep two people happy who are incapable of happiness. No matter what you do it won't be good enough so stop trying. It will be like a weight is lifted I promise once the realisation of that kicks in.

I think you are being unfair to your DH. Your fear of your parents is making the whole situation worse. You need to act normally when they are with you. Normal discipline from you, so that your poor DH doesn't need to be an ogre, and your DC don't get confused by the change in behaviour.

If your parents make comment, pull them up, each and every time. Tell them you disagree and if they can't be more positive then visits can't happen. You need to be an adult, not an overgrown child of your parents.

Mawi, I almost cannot believe how similar the dynamic you describe is. That is my life and my childhood right there as your DH. I wonder then if they still view me as a child so completely that they think I do no active parenting / discipline (by which I mean things like you said like running off in restaurants) and so my DH does it all and they view him as the big scary man who does all the discipline, which makes them hate him, and me as their little girl still.