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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What a mess. Just a really, really rubbish situation

434 replies

AnonymousMamaof2 · 26/03/2021 21:12

Ok, so I need to do some scene setting first.

DH and I met whilst working in Birmingham (we just worked there, no family connections whatsoever to the place). We had our child there but always knew we didn't want to raise a family in the city. Shortly after DC1 we made the decision to leave and move to the area where I grew up (which is nowhere near where my DH is from and he has zero connections here). He was driving the move more than I was, saying it would be a nicer area to bring up kids (which it is, it's amazing: rural, beautiful, near very supportive grandparents who look after the kids 3x a week etc).

I had been doing well in my career and I am the main breadwinner. However that means I work away for 2 days a week (incl 1 night). My parents insist they help us and have the grandchildren 2.5x days a week. It's mainly because they literally DOTE on the grandchildren, I have never seen anything like it. They are almost obsessed. But likewise the bond my kids have with them is also very special. Admittedly we could just put the kids in creche a bit more, but (a) my folks would be hurt (they would move heaven and earth to have the kids) and (b) what's the point of living where we are, if we're not using the support network which was one of the plusses of moving up here. Plus I quite like the bond my kids have with my folks.

So that's me and the kids.

DH worked (in Birmingham) in a very city based role, he can only do that work for a corporate city firm. That kind of work is nowhere to be seen where we live now. So, before we moved, after several discussions with my folks, he moved to working with my Mum in her business, which is completely different to anything he's ever done. Not even the skills in his previous city role would have been transferrable, other than perhaps (very loosely) people management. So it's very different to anything he's ever done but he was super keen to get involved.

Mum has grown the business from nothing and it's thriving. She lives and breathes it and has been running it now for nearly 40 years. The original idea was that she would then take a step back and he would take a step up (i.e. the future). She kept saying that the business needed new blood. But it reeeeally hasn't worked out like that.

I can see failings on both sides. She is very abrupt and almost aggressive in the way she deals with people. She's super efficient, operates at 110mph, nothing gets left undone. She's just constantly firing on all cylinders. That said, she can be very scatty and makes mistakes. There are very few processes. V little stored electronically. She operates heavily by bits of paper here n there. No idea how to use spreadsheets etc. All v old school. But clearly it has worked for her because the business is really successful.

DH on the other hand is the total opposite. Calmer, slower, not so engaged with the staff (she's the type that would send any of her staff a generous new baby gift if they had new babies, would know their kids' names etc when she has 70+ staff to manage... he is (well) a stereotypical man and just wouldn't be interested). Her personal touch with staff is what she's really known for. She will roll her sleeves up and get in the thick of it (and is v respected for that), he would probably delegate more.

So they have very different styles. Truth be told, if anything were to happen to Mum tomorrow and he had to step up and take over, I'd have been slightly worried at him running the show (and that's after nearly 4 years of being in the business!).

Now don't get me wrong, there was never any need for them to take him in, we know that. But we didn't quite think it would go as it has. In hindsight I think a lot of it is that (a) she's a VERY had task master, hard to please; and (b) no-one will ever run your own business like yourself so, despite his different management style, he has always (now, in hindsight) been on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

Anyway, the relationship with Mum has become absolutely horrendous over the past 18 months since she has started to pick him up for things he's missing. She says that she's meant to be taking a step back and is paying him to take over her role, yet in reality she's (apparently) working more than ever, until midnight every night to keep things running as she likes it. DH says that there must be a completely different side to the business that she runs that they don't let him in on. Looking at this from afar (and knowing both characters), DH operates very much on a "list" basis. If he has 10 things on his list then that's all he thinks he has on. In reality he probably just doesn't think that far outside the box as to what Mum could be doing at night. On the other hand, I think Mum can be v anal so....

Aaaanyway she called him in a few weeks ago. Basically told him the business is being "restructured". DH would not be doing his current role and they had "created" a new role in another part of the business for him, completely unrelated to what he's been doing - and learning - for the past 4 years. He sees it as them sacking him and creating a made up role for him simply because he's their son in law and because they want us to stay living nearby so they can see the grandchildren. I tend to agree with that, but I also do think he'd be quite well suited to this new role (which I don't think is entirely a "fake" role because it's stuff that needs doing and relates to the future growth of the company, so probably more his bag).

Anyway, after they told him about these new "restructuring" plans, they told him to take a month away from "them" and from the business (!). He has been at home feeling totally lost, upset, hurt. I expected he'd accept that new role and make it work (he admits himself it sounds exciting) but he's decided (and I kinda agree) because of the sheer stress of working for family and he just wants out. He says they've pulled the rug from beneath his feet with his initial role so could do it again, and he's not getting any younger. He is also sick of constantly having to defend himself and how he operates. It's exhausting and I get it.

He has told Mum & Dad that he won't be accepting the new role and they didn't argue back. They said they'd always support him in whatever way they could, but in reality I think they are just relieved that he's out of their hair.

The question is what now. For him. For our family.

We live in a rural area. There are NO roles here which is anything like his previous city based role. He would need to travel at least 1h15 mins each way to the nearest city, and even then it's a small-ish hub that would have satellite corporate offices, not mainstream HQs etc.

He says he's been out of that corporate world now for 4 years so he'll struggle to get anything at the level he previously was at, especially where we're based. Otherwise, there is NADA going. It's demoralising. He's so bright, successful, had a glimmering career in London, and now he's on the floor and doesn't know what to do with himself.

One option (which is heart wants to do) is for us, as a family, to sell up and move to Edinburgh (where he's from) where there would be heaps of jobs (for him), better paid, he'd be close to his family and friends etc. But not for me. It's a different jurisdiction so wouldn't work for my career. As I say, I already spend 1 night 2 days away each week which I could (in paper) still do but it would entail me flying down to work each week. I just don't want to do that. I have young kids. I don't want that stress. Me leaving my job and getting something else up in Edinburgh is also not an option because I've been there for 16 years, I have a good rep there and I'm the main breadwinner. Not that this should be a reason not to move, but it would also kill my parents who live for the grandchildren every week.

We feel a bit lost. He fully supports me not leaving my role. He knows me leaving isn't an option and he keeps saying that. But it's a terrible situation because:

  • where we live now works for me, doesn't work for him job wise. He'd have to make do with anything, which would make him feel even more worthless than he does now (he is at rock bottom)
  • if we go to Edinburgh, it works perfectly for him, but not for me.
  • we don't want to move back to Birmingham, we've done that. We don't want to go back to a city where we have no family connections, we'd just be living there for work. Life is too short.

There are no answers. Just wanted to vent, and I guess any generic thoughts on the situation...

OP posts:
betterfantasia · 28/03/2021 19:41

mayday

Spot on.

Alsohuman · 28/03/2021 19:51

I know @Bluntness100, gob smacking, isn’t it? There’s some massive projection going on here too.

AnonymousMamaof2 · 28/03/2021 20:31

@senua

Her last update said her mum has dealt with this as well as can be expected. The quotation is "They've dealt with this situation very well (imo) but they're not bad people and they'll be hurting right now." The "but" implies to me that there is a typo and OP actually meant "they've not dealt ..."
Yes- sorry was a typo. Should have read they've NOT dealt with this very well, but are not bad people
OP posts:
BronwenFrideswide · 28/03/2021 20:52

@OllyBJolly

Are you rewriting the OP *@senua* ?! Confused
No senua was just using basic comprehension and common sense skills, as confirmed by the OP's confirmation and correction.
MayDayFightsBack · 28/03/2021 21:14

@Bluntness100

in my opinion your DH has been unfairly criticised. He is dealing as best he can with a significant disability. Not everyone is a workaholic, some people work to live and there's nothing wrong with that. I also think you were very disloyal to go behind his back but I think you probably realise that now. You desperately need to prioritise your husband and children, even if that means some practical inconvenience to you

Wow. Just wow. She’s already fiercely prioritised her husband ans it’s not on her parents to give him a job so he can earn irrelevant of his performance. You know sometimes blokes really aren’t something to get down on your knees and worship.

Wow all you like Grin since I am the last person to say men should be worshipped but keep writing made-up garbage if it makes you feel good, I'm well aware of your posting style so it's water off a duck's back to me.

In my opinion the projecting is all on the posters looking to make OP's mother out to be a saint. This is a woman whose other daughter couldn't work with her and about whom the OP said She is very abrupt and almost aggressive in the way she deals with people. She sounds a bloody nightmare and that's without the obsession with her grandchildren and her attitude to her children's partners who she treats as threats to her 'legacy'. Even the over-the-top presents to staff sound more like display than real care. But, hey, keep making out the DH to be a useless arse if that floats your boat.

billy1966 · 28/03/2021 21:44

@MayDayFightsBack

Great posts.
30 years ago, newly qualified I took a post in Finance with a Family Firm.
Mid sized company worth millions, billions now.

The drama🙄 was really unbelievable.

Everything was soooo personal.
Every single little thing.
Loyalty had to be complete, as was your supposed 24/7 availability.

I didn't have a phone in my flat and didn't need one.
I was actually pulled aside one day and told that I really needed to be contactable 24/7🙄.

Family companies are a different ballgame, and until you have worked in one, you wont really understand why most people who have,will say Nope and go Corporate, with all its myriad of faults.😁

Bluntness100 · 28/03/2021 22:07

In my opinion the projecting is all on the posters looking to make OP's mother out to be a saint. This is a woman whose other daughter couldn't work with her and about whom the OP said She is very abrupt and almost aggressive in the way she deals with people. She sounds a bloody nightmare and that's without the obsession with her grandchildren and her attitude to her children's partners who she treats as threats to her 'legacy'. Even the over-the-top presents to staff sound more like display than real care. But, hey, keep making out the DH to be a useless arse if that floats your boat

Yes, the poor man, imagine having to work with an abrupt woman or be nice to the staff, poor man, you’re totally right.

Hmm
Alsohuman · 28/03/2021 22:11

n my opinion the projecting is all on the posters looking to make OP's mother out to be a saint

Nobody has.

This is a woman whose other daughter couldn't work with her and about whom the OP said She is very abrupt and almost aggressive in the way she deals with people

OP has also said her sister doesn’t share her mum’s work ethic. She can’t be a nightmare if she retains 70 employees and is liked and respected in the local community.

Even the over-the-top presents to staff sound more like display than real care

Baby gifts are hardly over the top, they’re pretty normal. More projection.

But, hey, keep making out the DH to be a useless arse if that floats your boat

OP is pretty open about her bloke’s attitude to work. He works to a list and isn’t motivated. He dossed in his previous role.

OP can see this from both sides and is clear there’s blame on both sides. Why don’t you believe her?

RandomMess · 28/03/2021 22:18

I have say your DH doesn't have the drive and determination to have the sort of job that he aspires to have (like his friends/contemporaries).

He needs to work out and accept who he really is, what he wants, how hard he will work for it and his medical limitations.

It's quite sad he can't see the value in really supporting you by being there for the DC, running the house and having some paid work to help bring money in.

He doesn't want to eat humble pie and go back to his previous employers? So his pride is more important than a job he enjoyed if they would let him do it part time and mainly from home?

He needs to come to terms with the limitations his health puts on him.

He also needs to let go of the fantasy of living in Edinburgh!! Their would be issues with his family and things with friends will have moved on - has he not learned this by the move to where you are now? You were teens when you left home you are now much older and parents - stepping back into old dynamics rarely works!

TheBlessedCheesemaker · 28/03/2021 22:31

Have him find a role he likes and have him do a weekly commute (he will probably be able to wfh part of the time anyway).
Get an au pair if necc to help you get some childcare support.
See how it goes for 12 months and then decide what to do long term.

betterfantasia · 28/03/2021 22:42

I find it so odd how many posters are telling the OP what to tell her DH to do.

My hunch is that the OP is slightly unwittingly controlling (hard to avoid with a mother like that) and the most helpful advice would be for her to rein that in. Also, she hasn't been fiercely loyal to her DH and unfortunately that has probably screwed the relationship as her mother will be delighted to think she's being cruelly separated from family if any boundaries are imposed. She'll know exactly who to blame because the very self congratulatory OP has told her.

PerveenMistry · 29/03/2021 10:58

@Cowbells

I'm a bit alarmed that you are on call 24/7 and working 11 hour days and still not earning enough to keep a family. Those are long hours. I would expect to be able to afford to have one SAHP on those hours, who would maybe doing a few PT hours for their own self-worth and to have a bit of financial autonomy. Ask for a pay rise. Discuss with Dh him becoming the SAHP and looking for a physically active PT role that fits in with child care. Would that be an option? Seriously - negotiate better pay!

Yes, this struck me, too.

Why are you working at that pace if the salary is not high enough to support an SAHP? Maybe it's you who needs a different job.

Bluntness100 · 29/03/2021 11:31

I don’t understand where you live that there is no roles that shot his skill set within say an hour to 75 min commute each way. It’s not ideal but plenty of us do it or have done it, it’s not unusual

And as per the pp I also don’t understand what you do to be working these kind of hours and be not able to afford someone to stay home. Even on min wage you’d be able to manage it turning in those hours.

I’m not sure if it is actually worth staying where you are when you earn so little for what you do? Maybe you both need new jobs?

ItscoldinAlaska · 29/03/2021 13:38

As someone who has zero emotional investment in your story OP, there are obvious things you can do:

  1. You ask for a payrise to enable number 2.
  2. Your DH gets a job that suits the DC schedule, his ego is not your problem. He seems capable of asserting his needs.
  3. You disentangle yourselves from your professional/childcare relationship with your DP and just got back to an interpersonal one (with normal adult child/parent boundaries). Their needs are not your problem. They seem more than capable of asserting their own needs.
  4. You state to your parents and DP that you don't want to hear negative things about the other party from either of them. You love them all, you are not piggy in the middle and you have enough on your plate and you are not engaging. Assert your own needs.

You are not the oracle problem solver, path smoother. Who positioned you as that? It is not your responsibility to manage the feelings of these three other adults and you are contributing enough to life without dealing with adults stamping their feet and vying for attention. How old are you? I am 41. My middle age is not being taken up with playing referee and carrying the mental load of others. No chance. Create your own peace.

BronwenFrideswide · 29/03/2021 14:28

OP has also said her sister doesn’t share her mum’s work ethic.

Where did you get that from Alsohuman? I've re-read the OP's posts and I can't see anywhere she says this?

Alsohuman · 29/03/2021 14:33

@BronwenFrideswide

OP has also said her sister doesn’t share her mum’s work ethic.

Where did you get that from Alsohuman? I've re-read the OP's posts and I can't see anywhere she says this?

You’re right. I’ve done what a number of pp have done and made that up, albeit inadvertently. Sorry!
Supersimkin2 · 29/03/2021 14:51

DM loves her business too much - often how people do so well. Inevitably there are downsides, such as succession anxiety.

DH can’t run the business, he’s not the type. No shame in that, most of are not entrepreneurs. He didn’t want to be either. Thank God he’s out of it quickly.

Given you and your parents are caring for, financing and housing the children, I think your needs come at least equal to DHs job search.

I suggest you ask him to come up with a solution that works and doesn’t cost you too much money.

In the meantime, stop letting DH wind you up. Your DCs deserve to keep close family relationships.

Nanny0gg · 29/03/2021 17:42

[quote billy1966]@MayDayFightsBack

Great posts.
30 years ago, newly qualified I took a post in Finance with a Family Firm.
Mid sized company worth millions, billions now.

The drama🙄 was really unbelievable.

Everything was soooo personal.
Every single little thing.
Loyalty had to be complete, as was your supposed 24/7 availability.

I didn't have a phone in my flat and didn't need one.
I was actually pulled aside one day and told that I really needed to be contactable 24/7🙄.

Family companies are a different ballgame, and until you have worked in one, you wont really understand why most people who have,will say Nope and go Corporate, with all its myriad of faults.😁[/quote]
Absolutely. Even if it's not 'your' family, there's often far too much 'my way or the highway'. even if it's not good business practice.

PankhurstTastic · 29/03/2021 18:24

The obvious option would be for him to
work part-time in the nearest city- so when you are away, he's off work. Or move to a nearby city with good transport links to your job, employment for him - and hopefully you'd still be close enough to your parents to see them frequently.

AnonymousMamaof2 · 31/03/2021 09:53

Some really good advice on this thread. Finding it all really useful, very grateful.

So DH has been searching / applying flat out for jobs; doing multiple online assessments, mock questions etc (some of which I've done with him and are bloody draining). He looks so down, it pains me to watch him go through this.

He has a call this morning with a contact at his old firm, they have a satellite office based 1h15 away from us. Would be great (I think...) if anything came of it but even just looking at that satellite office, the roles based there are very much back office / support for their main HQ so he says in itself he'd be applying for jobs that he'd have probably been looking at 15 years ago. Anyway, that's not the point of this post.

Last night, as we were prepping for this call together (I was helping him to 'script' his story (whoever on here mentioned that, useful post btw). As we got into it, he said he was just generally feeling heartbroken because whilst he appreciates DM didn't think he was suited to the role and has essentially "elbowed" him out, he genuinely really enjoyed the role. His words were "it was the best job I've ever had". He said he loved the variety; was interested in the engineering/mechanics side of things (probably too much for my DM's liking, from what I could see from afar); liked to know the goings on with staff (we've already acknowledged on here that he didn't get as "involved" with the staff as DM did, but he liked to know what was going on, every day was different); the fact it wasn't as desk based as his previous roles, so it helped his medical condition. My heart bled for him. He would very (very) happily be continuing there if he could. He also said that working in the family business allowed flexibilities that working for another employer wouldn't necessarily have, my DM always acknowledged this, from the outset, and told him that this is how he should operate. He didn't feel, for example, that he needed to ask permission for certain things (medical appointments; time off wasn't ever contentious; kids drop offs etc all just happened really easily because it was part of the family logistics). I think he felt very liberated and I I don't think he took the p!ss with it at all, but the freedom he experienced Vs his old corporate role was massive. He doesn't feel he would get this with a rival firm (I agree) and anyway there are very, very few similar businesses around here where he could do this sort of role. He basically said he only left the corporate world to do this (very different) type of work for the family, he wouldn't be interested in going anywhere else to do it.

I also think that he would probably quite happily do the new role she has offered, but he's worried about this whole saga happening again in a few years' time, again I get that. That new role has been phrased as not being directly managed by my DM and instead by my DF as it's more directly related with his projects. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. We both know the reality is that my DM would certainly be involved because she's the most communicative and essentially acts as top of the food chain. He likes the sound of the role. He said ordinarily he'd take it as it's right up his street, but it's the family politics stopping him from doing so. And his pride. He says he is overall just very drained from the countless meetings to discuss his performance and the constant defending of himself he feels he always has to do. Proving that he's working hard, proving what he's doing, fighting his corner. Something I don't think you get in a bigger organisation (as has been acknowledged on here).

Putting the family intensities aside, if it were this new role or a new corporate role, it would be the former hands down.

My DM has said there will always be a place for him within the business, they would always "support" him and wouldn't see him on his arse. Whilst they've manoeuvred him out of this role, they have (I guess...!?) offered him something else, and I think they'd always do that. I think they'd rely too heavily on their reputation ("well we've always accommodated a position for him, just a slightly different one that's more suited to him" type of thing).

I don't know what to suggest. I've suggested that he perhaps continues as he is for now, applying for new roles for the next couple of weeks and see how things pan out. The reality is, his heart's not in it and there isn't anything he feels that will interest him as much as what he was previously doing. He said he misses it. Do I go over to speak to DM on his behalf and explain how he feels (I 100% know she (and my DF) won't realise how much he enjoyed the work, they think he took it as a bit of a meal ticket). I am a very critical person and even I don't think that is the case, although I do acknowledge that he doesn't work flat out either. There is a distinct difference in work ethic. My DM lives and breathes the business, she does things at weekends, she always checks in on staff etc. She's always thinking about it, it's her baby. When my DH left the office on a Friday, for example, he would set reminders / alarms in his phone to remember call in to check on things because he'd otherwise forget.... (!). Not quite the mindset of a business owner. He thinks in a very compartmentalised way: when not in the office, he doesn't think about the office whatsoever. Another example is this morning. He was at his desk for 6am to prep for this call, so we re-jigged our usual morning routine with the kids so he could have complete silence to prepare. I checked in at 8:30am to see how things we're gong and he said not very productive and he'd wasted a fair bit of time, googling random shit, letting his mind drift but said "it's fine, I have an hour now so I'll blast through it". Things like this would infuriate me if I worked with him, so I get where DM is coming from on this side.

I just don't know what to do. I see his failings. I also see DM's. I also know how intense a family business is. But he really, really loved the work, and would do it again in a heartbeat. He is applying for other stuff and he's genuinely looking, but the attractiveness of the family business was flexibility and all the other little benefits he got from essentially being his own man. For those who suggests he set up his own business, his response is "in what!?" when I ask.

Any suggestions very welcome.

OP posts:
MaMaD1990 · 31/03/2021 10:18

Thanks OP, this has really clarified things actually. If it were me, I wouldn't speak to your parents on his behalf, but I would put my foot down with everyone (DH and DP) that everyone needs to sit down and talk this out - not in the business building, but either at your home or theirs. The whole point of this being everyone have their turn at saying what went wrong in their opinion and how they would like things to be different. No shouting or arguing or defending but accepting eachothers opinions on it all. From there, a discussion with them all about how they would like to move forward if your DH were to take up this new position - and there will need to be compromises on both sides. I've had to do this a few times within my own family - staying calm and composed is essential and outlining clear boundaries about "this isn't to start an argument but to find a solution and way of working that benefits us all". This does need to come from you DH though, it sets the precedent for working WITH your DP and opens up lines of communication and by him telling them how he's feeling and how much he loved the job, will mean much more to them and have more of an impact. It would be good for you to be there too but just to keep things on track so it doesn't blow up into an argument. I hope his comes across well, I've just written as I've thought!

Disfordarkchocolate · 31/03/2021 10:29

I think he would be mad to go back. Your parents may have managed a business for a long time but they didn't manage your husband well. How they managed his 'change of role' was shocking and totally unnecessary. How could he ever feel secure if he went back?

The reality is you husband wants a job, you parents want someone who will do things exactly their way and by the sounds of it 'live and breath the business', that isn't going to happen and nor should it. They will never find this, even if the sold the business a new person would change things.

AnonymousMamaof2 · 31/03/2021 10:31

@MaMaD1990 this is exactly what I was thinking. I had intended me go there first, then the four of us sit down. But I think your suggestion better. I will raise this with DH later in the week I think...

OP posts:
AnonymousMamaof2 · 31/03/2021 10:35

@Disfordarkchocolate The reality is that no one will ever run it like they do. This is precisely the problem. Even if their direct GC came in, in years to come, they'd not do it as they do. Even my sister (apparently) couldn't. This is a real issue, but one thing that strikes me is that this new role offered to my DH would is "new", so part of me thinks (or likes to think) that there is no status quo. No precedent. Perhaps less scope for "this is how we've done it the past 40 years". It's inevitable there would be politics. And I also think him going back now kind of gives them the upper hand, they know how much he likes/needs/wants to stay there. But maybe a sit around the table and this whole blow up that's happened might clear the air and pave a way for the future...

It's a real risk either way. So difficult.

OP posts:
Sssloou · 31/03/2021 10:41

*so. And his pride. He says he is overall just very drained from the countless meetings to discuss his performance and the constant defending of himself he feels he always has to do. Proving that he's working hard, proving what he's doing, fighting his corner. Something I don't think you get in a bigger organisation (as has been acknowledged on here).

Putting the family intensities aside, if it were this new role or a new corporate role, it would be the former hands down.*

Wow your DM sounds like unhinged - a rabid, Narc bully.

YOU can’t see this because it’s your normal to be dance to her compulsive, intense, controlling workaholic tune.

Her behaviour is so abusive and degrading. She has form for crushing peoples soul - with your other relatives.

But YOU are in denial and even impressed and enthralled with your DM - why?

Why would you subject your DH to this again?

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