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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What a mess. Just a really, really rubbish situation

434 replies

AnonymousMamaof2 · 26/03/2021 21:12

Ok, so I need to do some scene setting first.

DH and I met whilst working in Birmingham (we just worked there, no family connections whatsoever to the place). We had our child there but always knew we didn't want to raise a family in the city. Shortly after DC1 we made the decision to leave and move to the area where I grew up (which is nowhere near where my DH is from and he has zero connections here). He was driving the move more than I was, saying it would be a nicer area to bring up kids (which it is, it's amazing: rural, beautiful, near very supportive grandparents who look after the kids 3x a week etc).

I had been doing well in my career and I am the main breadwinner. However that means I work away for 2 days a week (incl 1 night). My parents insist they help us and have the grandchildren 2.5x days a week. It's mainly because they literally DOTE on the grandchildren, I have never seen anything like it. They are almost obsessed. But likewise the bond my kids have with them is also very special. Admittedly we could just put the kids in creche a bit more, but (a) my folks would be hurt (they would move heaven and earth to have the kids) and (b) what's the point of living where we are, if we're not using the support network which was one of the plusses of moving up here. Plus I quite like the bond my kids have with my folks.

So that's me and the kids.

DH worked (in Birmingham) in a very city based role, he can only do that work for a corporate city firm. That kind of work is nowhere to be seen where we live now. So, before we moved, after several discussions with my folks, he moved to working with my Mum in her business, which is completely different to anything he's ever done. Not even the skills in his previous city role would have been transferrable, other than perhaps (very loosely) people management. So it's very different to anything he's ever done but he was super keen to get involved.

Mum has grown the business from nothing and it's thriving. She lives and breathes it and has been running it now for nearly 40 years. The original idea was that she would then take a step back and he would take a step up (i.e. the future). She kept saying that the business needed new blood. But it reeeeally hasn't worked out like that.

I can see failings on both sides. She is very abrupt and almost aggressive in the way she deals with people. She's super efficient, operates at 110mph, nothing gets left undone. She's just constantly firing on all cylinders. That said, she can be very scatty and makes mistakes. There are very few processes. V little stored electronically. She operates heavily by bits of paper here n there. No idea how to use spreadsheets etc. All v old school. But clearly it has worked for her because the business is really successful.

DH on the other hand is the total opposite. Calmer, slower, not so engaged with the staff (she's the type that would send any of her staff a generous new baby gift if they had new babies, would know their kids' names etc when she has 70+ staff to manage... he is (well) a stereotypical man and just wouldn't be interested). Her personal touch with staff is what she's really known for. She will roll her sleeves up and get in the thick of it (and is v respected for that), he would probably delegate more.

So they have very different styles. Truth be told, if anything were to happen to Mum tomorrow and he had to step up and take over, I'd have been slightly worried at him running the show (and that's after nearly 4 years of being in the business!).

Now don't get me wrong, there was never any need for them to take him in, we know that. But we didn't quite think it would go as it has. In hindsight I think a lot of it is that (a) she's a VERY had task master, hard to please; and (b) no-one will ever run your own business like yourself so, despite his different management style, he has always (now, in hindsight) been on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

Anyway, the relationship with Mum has become absolutely horrendous over the past 18 months since she has started to pick him up for things he's missing. She says that she's meant to be taking a step back and is paying him to take over her role, yet in reality she's (apparently) working more than ever, until midnight every night to keep things running as she likes it. DH says that there must be a completely different side to the business that she runs that they don't let him in on. Looking at this from afar (and knowing both characters), DH operates very much on a "list" basis. If he has 10 things on his list then that's all he thinks he has on. In reality he probably just doesn't think that far outside the box as to what Mum could be doing at night. On the other hand, I think Mum can be v anal so....

Aaaanyway she called him in a few weeks ago. Basically told him the business is being "restructured". DH would not be doing his current role and they had "created" a new role in another part of the business for him, completely unrelated to what he's been doing - and learning - for the past 4 years. He sees it as them sacking him and creating a made up role for him simply because he's their son in law and because they want us to stay living nearby so they can see the grandchildren. I tend to agree with that, but I also do think he'd be quite well suited to this new role (which I don't think is entirely a "fake" role because it's stuff that needs doing and relates to the future growth of the company, so probably more his bag).

Anyway, after they told him about these new "restructuring" plans, they told him to take a month away from "them" and from the business (!). He has been at home feeling totally lost, upset, hurt. I expected he'd accept that new role and make it work (he admits himself it sounds exciting) but he's decided (and I kinda agree) because of the sheer stress of working for family and he just wants out. He says they've pulled the rug from beneath his feet with his initial role so could do it again, and he's not getting any younger. He is also sick of constantly having to defend himself and how he operates. It's exhausting and I get it.

He has told Mum & Dad that he won't be accepting the new role and they didn't argue back. They said they'd always support him in whatever way they could, but in reality I think they are just relieved that he's out of their hair.

The question is what now. For him. For our family.

We live in a rural area. There are NO roles here which is anything like his previous city based role. He would need to travel at least 1h15 mins each way to the nearest city, and even then it's a small-ish hub that would have satellite corporate offices, not mainstream HQs etc.

He says he's been out of that corporate world now for 4 years so he'll struggle to get anything at the level he previously was at, especially where we're based. Otherwise, there is NADA going. It's demoralising. He's so bright, successful, had a glimmering career in London, and now he's on the floor and doesn't know what to do with himself.

One option (which is heart wants to do) is for us, as a family, to sell up and move to Edinburgh (where he's from) where there would be heaps of jobs (for him), better paid, he'd be close to his family and friends etc. But not for me. It's a different jurisdiction so wouldn't work for my career. As I say, I already spend 1 night 2 days away each week which I could (in paper) still do but it would entail me flying down to work each week. I just don't want to do that. I have young kids. I don't want that stress. Me leaving my job and getting something else up in Edinburgh is also not an option because I've been there for 16 years, I have a good rep there and I'm the main breadwinner. Not that this should be a reason not to move, but it would also kill my parents who live for the grandchildren every week.

We feel a bit lost. He fully supports me not leaving my role. He knows me leaving isn't an option and he keeps saying that. But it's a terrible situation because:

  • where we live now works for me, doesn't work for him job wise. He'd have to make do with anything, which would make him feel even more worthless than he does now (he is at rock bottom)
  • if we go to Edinburgh, it works perfectly for him, but not for me.
  • we don't want to move back to Birmingham, we've done that. We don't want to go back to a city where we have no family connections, we'd just be living there for work. Life is too short.

There are no answers. Just wanted to vent, and I guess any generic thoughts on the situation...

OP posts:
betterfantasia · 28/03/2021 15:32

DP to assert himself and do what he wants to do to achieve financial independence without being tied to primary parent role.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 28/03/2021 15:44

The thing you are missing is that your parents really dislike your DH
They think (maybe hope) that you will get divorced. Your mum is practically waiting for it to happen.
That is so toxic for your marriage and for you both.
That's the main reason people are suggesting you get away.

If you are not physically getting away then you need to massively reduce contact. DC starting school is the perfect excuse. You need to get them out of your lives to a large degree if you want DH to be happy and your marriage to survive.
You need to stop your Mum doing regular childcare before she poisons your kids against DH.

With DH health and not really enjoying his career then why not agree that he be the primary parent and get some work that he fits around that that is good for him physically and mentally even if it doesn't make much money?
Try to persuade him on the career coach thing. Make it clear that he doesn't have to make a lot of money for you to love and value him.
He should not feel he has to go back to a job he didn't even like just for money.
If you were a man in this scenario that would already have happened.

Cowbells · 28/03/2021 15:53

I'm a bit alarmed that you are on call 24/7 and working 11 hour days and still not earning enough to keep a family. Those are long hours. I would expect to be able to afford to have one SAHP on those hours, who would maybe doing a few PT hours for their own self-worth and to have a bit of financial autonomy. Ask for a pay rise. Discuss with Dh him becoming the SAHP and looking for a physically active PT role that fits in with child care. Would that be an option? Seriously - negotiate better pay!

senua · 28/03/2021 15:54

I think your DH needs to step up. He seems to think that the world owes him some sort of lovely job in a lovely location with lovely money and people patting him on the back telling him what a fantastic chap he is.
Real life is not like that. He needs to step up and think about you and the DC, not just himself.

BronwenFrideswide · 28/03/2021 15:56

Some tough love indeed but I am always up for saying it how it is, some brutal responses but I genuinely appreciate them all. Thanks.

Great attitude, OP, and one that will be invaluable in sorting out the situation you currently find yourself in.

Career coach: This is the frustrating bit. I raised this with DH yesterday where he flatly rejected. He's very black and white in the way he sees anything in life. I said that it would give him an objective view, alternative ideas that he (we) wouldn't have considered, like the governance/compliance role someone mentioned on here which I thought was a good idea. He said there wasn't a chance he'd start speaking to one, says he knows his options..... I raised it again today and he was a bit softer about it but still doesn't think necessary. I disagree and think he should consider, I will work on this. But his flat rejection isn't an ideal attitude.

This is disappointing, I think you both need all the ideas and input you can get to resolve this situation and to move away from the Edinburgh or bust solution. Hopefully you can continue to work on this on the basis that you both need to explore every avenue available to you before you commit to doing something that will impact you, your dh and children.

He also never really felt fulfilled in his previous role, nor did he love it. Yet a career coach could help him find a role that he was fulfilled in and loved. I fear the experience of working in the family business has cemented the idea of do what you know in his head and he is now afraid of change.

My PIL live in a stunning area and have enough room in their back garden for a plot for a new house to be built. That would be my DH dream but I can guarantee that living in my PIL back garden would be the beginning of the end for me.

No, no and thrice no. That will end up even worse that your current situation and for all I have supported your husband on this thread on this he is massively in the wrong to even vaguely dream about it.

Your mother/parents moving the goalposts on the restructuring job offer was awful. A distinct lack of honesty and transparency, no wonder your dh refused the 'new' role, no doubt that role would soon become surplus to requirements.

Good idea on the childcare.

I never suggested nor do I think you should give up your job.

Alsohuman · 28/03/2021 16:09

The thing you are missing is that your parents really dislike your DH
They think (maybe hope) that you will get divorced. Your mum is practically waiting for it to happen

I think that’s made up. Nothing OP has said has led me to think that.

@AnonymousMamaof2, it’s not often I see posts here and have the utmost respect for someone but you’re the exception. Your ability to see both sides and blame nobody is admirable. I hope you can persuade your bloke to see a career coach and that leads to a job he loves with a passion. He’s very lucky to have you.

senua · 28/03/2021 16:18

When I last saw DM she looked haggard and had lost loads of weight (she was already thin!). I know it's affecting them too
I hope that she is getting zero sympathy. She created this situation.

Alsohuman · 28/03/2021 16:20

@senua

When I last saw DM she looked haggard and had lost loads of weight (she was already thin!). I know it's affecting them too I hope that she is getting zero sympathy. She created this situation.
She didn’t.
CovoidOfAllHumanity · 28/03/2021 16:26

I got that from OP's 3rd post where she said that her parents specifically structured their will so that the grandkids inherit and not their own children because they are afraid of a divorcing spouse getting the money.
That seems a very aggressive act and marriage unfriendly act to me.
'Keep it in the family' and he is not counted as family.

She also said that her mum had discussed DH business shortcomings with all her friends and also things OP said in confidence about an argument they'd had. Badmouthing him to all and sundry suggests she would rather he wasn't around.

OP's DH felt the need to ask for 3 weeks off from seeing her DPs that seems a fairly desperate thing to need to ask for. Not the act of a man who feels welcomed in the family. That is why he wants to run away to Edinburgh because he feels so bloody unwelcome where he is.
He can't even be sure OP has got his back given she went round to see her DMum despite their agreement.

When people are grown ups with their own kids they have to put their loyalty to one another first. Their parents should be supportive of that and try not to interfere. That is the opposite of what OPs mum does.

My own MIL is just like this. She makes it very clear all the shortcomings of literally every one of her numerous children's partners. It's funny how we are all quite so shit and how the sun shines out of her own DC arses. She really cannot see how damaging it is to her win DC to interfere in their relationships. She thinks she is being 'supportive'. Those of us still together moved away and keep her and her 'advice' at arms length. Those who let her get too close are now divorced.

SenselessUbiquity · 28/03/2021 16:37

Thanks for coming back OP.
It sounds to me like you have all the elements you need to work this out but the biggest danger is your DH's rigid thinking.

I think you should definitely continue to work on him about the career coach. It sounds as if he is moving every time you mention it - I'm sure you know how to play it best so he gets there in the end.

A PP had great tips for how you frame your DH's decision to move on. I think you really need to get into the habit of working your script for different contexts. Get comfortable with it so you can talk to anyone about it in a relaxed way under any circumstances - I mean him, of course, not you. There are no contexts in which "what do you do? what did you do? Why did you leave?" won't come up - the most important being of course job interviews - but socially it matters too.

The thing is, this is a universally recognised thing. People who start their own businesses from nothing often get to a point where they know they have to let go in order to grow (or retire); they say they are going to do it; they make plans for doing it; they bring people in to do it; and they they JUST CAN'T DO IT. Everyone knows this happens and the people who find themselves in the mix just have to give up, cut their losses and move on. Every context has an appropriate language in which to tell this story in which you can focus on the positives (what he learnt, how it informed what he did next, he was actually offered another role within the company and actively took the decision to leave, etc) and he needs to get used to this and telling the story in a strong way.

I don't blame him for not working as hard as you or your mum - I am not the type who can do that either, I have limited stamina. But he has to be more flexible and more positive in his thinking.

Inthevirtualwaitingroom · 28/03/2021 17:08

no decision needs to be made yet op.
no rush.

billy1966 · 28/03/2021 17:09

OP,

Lots of mixed advice here.
I still have sympathy for your husband.
Just because he wasn't working as hard as your mother (a workaholic that owns the business) doesn't mean he wasn't making a valuable contribution.

What I find so crass and distasteful is your mother's disloyalty to family.
Her badmouthing him to friends etc is so vulgar.

You criticise your MIL but think that is ok from your mother?
I just don't understand family being so disloyal.
How awful for your husband.
How hurtful.

I can honestly say if either of my parents had spoken badly about my husband, particularly outside of our family, I would have gone through them for a shortcut.
I really mean that.
They certainly would not be seeing my children.

You have broken down many points well in your last post, yet seem totally blinded by your parents.

I still feel sorry for your husband.
Loyalty is very important in a marriage IMO and I just feel you lack it in this vital area.

Flowers
AnnaMagnani · 28/03/2021 17:09

OP I am struck by your DM now looking haggard and that you also have a work ethic of working unbelievably hard.

Your DM has not been able to work with your sister and now hasn't been able to work with your DH. I'd guess she means for the grandchildren to inherit the business but the reality will be that she can't hand the business on to a family member as she just can't bear it. Her retirement will be incredibly painful as no-one can run the business as well as her in her head and it will end up being wound up or sold.

I'd also have a look at how you work. At the moment you are the person in work so changing your job may not be on the cards. But do you always want to have a working style that is 100 miles an hour, on call 24/7? Do you have to work like this or is it a behaviour you have a learnt from your DM?

The career coach might be a good idea for both of you.

Inthevirtualwaitingroom · 28/03/2021 17:17

your dh can make the decision about his line of work, you have decided together you are not moving, and you are not changing jobs, so whatever works he wants to do, he can look for

Nanny0gg · 28/03/2021 17:31

I'm not entirely sure why this whole debacle appears to have affected your MiL so badly.

Nanny0gg · 28/03/2021 17:31

Sorry, that should have read Mother

Alsohuman · 28/03/2021 17:53

@Nanny0gg

I'm not entirely sure why this whole debacle appears to have affected your MiL so badly.
Presumably because she’s a decent person - note how well she treats her 70 staff - and is sad that things have turned out this way. She thought she’d got her legacy planning sorted and must be worried and disappointed that she hasn’t.
Cavagirl · 28/03/2021 18:31

So much good advice on this thread OP, adding my tuppence worth in case it helps.

I think you have two problems, not one, and it might help to separate them in your mind.

  1. Your husband quit his job, took a career change and it didn't work out. He can't return to his old line of work for health reasons.

  2. You've had a major falling out with your parents and are reconsidering how you would like your future relationship with them to work

1 needs to really be the priority here, and it sounds like your DH needs to reframe his thinking on it also, towards "what future career do I want given my health" and untie it in his mind from the baggage around how and why he got to this point. I would insist upon a career coach.

2 can wait, I'd reduce how much you rely on them for childcare as you are doing, but the final conclusion on this will inevitably be different depending on whether the answer to your DH's career conundrum involves a further move for you both.

But it sounds like you're winding yourself in knots mentally by including your parents in your thinking, which I don't think is helping.

Your husband wants to change career - great - to what and what does that mean for your lives together? That needs to be your focus now.

LizzieSiddal · 28/03/2021 18:33

Presumably because she’s a decent person - note how well she treats her 70 staff - and is sad that things have turned out this way. She thought she’d got her legacy planning sorted and must be worried and disappointed that she hasn’t

I don’t think she is a “decent” person.

Remember her own Daughter left because she couldn’t make working in the family business work, now they’ve got rid of their SIL. The OP says her mother is manipulative. Nobody (including her own grandchildren) will ever run the business as she wants it.l, there will always be “drama” with this person.

user1493494961 · 28/03/2021 18:47

Presumably the mother 'got rid' of SIL because he was crap at the job, she has 70 other employees to think about.

Alsohuman · 28/03/2021 18:54

The OP says her mother is manipulative

She doesn’t. Her last update said her mum has dealt with this as well as can be expected. There are a lot of fiction writers on this thread.

senua · 28/03/2021 19:09

Her last update said her mum has dealt with this as well as can be expected.
The quotation is "They've dealt with this situation very well (imo) but they're not bad people and they'll be hurting right now." The "but" implies to me that there is a typo and OP actually meant "they've not dealt ..."

MayDayFightsBack · 28/03/2021 19:27

It's interesting how those of us who have worked in family businesses or who have toxic relatives see this totally differently to those who haven't/don't.

I went to work in a family business as I was ill and it seemed like a good idea at the time as it was on the understanding that I would be working from home. It very soon became clear that this wasn't going to happen and, instead, I was supposed to be on call 24 hours a day and was constantly going to be dragged into toxic drama between my half-brother and my mother and stepfather. I took it for a year and then left but the penalty that was imposed on me for daring to do that was severe, I was punished by being left with a debt of £10,000 for stock I'd paid for for the business and which was sold with the proceeds going into a separate bank account that I had no access to. I took legal advice but was told that pursuing the debt through the courts would be more expensive than writing off the debt. I've never spoken to my mother, stepfather and brother again and have now been 20 years free of them all. My brother is completely controlled by them, behaves badly but lives in a flat they own and is bankrolled by them. He has never been married, barely works and has children by multiple partners.

What happened to me sounds like a disaster and, at the time, it was, it was awful, particularly as I was ill and vulnerable. However, it was the price I paid for a calm, free life and I don't regret any of it. The skills I took from running the business I used to start my own successful business in a different field. I am now much better and much more successful than them on every level. My skills and experience also helped me help my husband to set up his own business so that he was able to leave a job he loathed and work for himself in a field he loves, he is also very successful. The whole drama brought my husband and I closer together as he supported me so much throughout it all and supported me leaving without having a job to go to as he believed in me and wanted me to be well and happy.

OP I'm sorry but my heart sunk when I saw you were going to still be relying on your parents for childcare, I think this is a massive mistake. You need to separate your life as much as possible so that they have no real control over it at all. Personally, I would move but if you can't do that then at least don't rely on them for anything. The whole issue with the inheritance sounds unhealthy and controlling and I suspect your parents' obsession with your children is because they are young, unquestioning and adoring. It will be a different matter when they start to have opinions and needs of their own that conflict with those of their grandparents. I think it's very significant that your sister also couldn't work for them.

In my opinion your DH has been unfairly criticised. He is dealing as best he can with a significant disability. Not everyone is a workaholic, some people work to live and there's nothing wrong with that. I also think you were very disloyal to go behind his back but I think you probably realise that now. You desperately need to prioritise your husband and children, even if that means some practical inconvenience to you.

OllyBJolly · 28/03/2021 19:33

Are you rewriting the OP @senua ?! Confused

Bluntness100 · 28/03/2021 19:34

in my opinion your DH has been unfairly criticised. He is dealing as best he can with a significant disability. Not everyone is a workaholic, some people work to live and there's nothing wrong with that. I also think you were very disloyal to go behind his back but I think you probably realise that now. You desperately need to prioritise your husband and children, even if that means some practical inconvenience to you

Wow. Just wow. She’s already fiercely prioritised her husband ans it’s not on her parents to give him a job so he can earn irrelevant of his performance. You know sometimes blokes really aren’t something to get down on your knees and worship.