March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Openwaterswimming yes it is your therapist 'fault' that you are looking at the past with clear eyes and seeing the truth, your sister is panicking in case you step outside of the box she wants to keep you in and you make her look bad, upset the apple cart, rock the boat and destroy her safe comfortable illusion.
Your mother doesn't want treatment for her depression because she enjoys the wallowing in it and making everyone else feel guilty
Ignore them they are idiots and talking sh1t

40 voicemails!!!
You've shitted her up good and proper!! 😊
Do not respond at all, don't give her anything, sit back and watch it all happen, keep notes so you can enjoy it some more as you analyse it after the fact (I know I sound flippant I hope you don't think I'm being unsympathetic)

What EgoeswhereIgoes has written here. You need to block your sister and your mother from being able to contact you under any circumstances. Both she and your mother will otherwise continue to make you the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. Forty voicemails as well amounts also to harassment. Do not respond in any way to her hoovering attempts.

Your mother was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and neither she nor your sister has changed since that time.

@Thehouseofmarvels
how common is it for there to be no enabler and both parents to be as violent as each other?
I suppose it depends what the criteria are for 'enabler', in effect since they are both behaving in the same way they are each condoning and enabling the behaviour of the other.
These people send dangerous and dysfunctional in the extreme and your partner is right to cut them out of his life!

Bit of a tangent, on the subject of blocking numbers I have just realised that even if you block someone they can still send you a voicemail! I don't know what other people's solutions are to this but it seems to me it's better to keep them as a contact and then have that contact only routed straight to voicemail, then when you receive the notification that there is a voicemail you will be able to see that the person you don't want to hear from has sent it and you can delete it before it gets listened to?
The other option is to change your phone number and make sure they don't obtain it 🤔

Thanks @EgoeswhereIgoes and @AttilaTheMeerkat. Sometimes I start to believe them and think I'm the mad one. I only want to be treated normally...not special, just normal. I said to my mother "why is it so hard for you to admit I'm not a bad person?" She managed, eventually, to say it but it nearly killed her. A bad person who despite a traumatic upbringing, abuse, neglect, assault, overcoming reliance on drugs and alcohol and who has come through to get professional qualifications, a good job, a nice husband and 2 wonderful children but I am the bad person...a bad person because I went to therapy to become a better parent, deal with my issues, a horrible and cruel person because I've taken up yoga and I'm trying to be kind to myself for the first time in 40 years.
Do some people never self-examine? Do some people never think, what could I have done to contribute to this situation? Because I never bloody stop asking myself those questions...trying to figure out if I've said or done something wrong, if I should have done something differently.
Luckily my husband pulls me back from the brink because he has seen how toxic they are and how much damage its done. And it's taken my lovely in-laws welcoming me into their family for me to realise what a normal non-toxic family is like!

Its not you, its them (i.e mother and sister. These two are two of the same kind). Narcissistic people have no self awareness whatsoever and certainly no empathy. Toxic people also never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

And they will never treat you normally because they have assigned you to be the scapegoat for all their inherent ills and that is where they want you to be. You're ultimately going to have to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Your inlaws are nice and importantly emotionally healthy; concentrate your efforts on them going forwards.

@openwaterswimming there was a post on here on a much earlier thread that had the analogy of a boat being rocked and those instigating thecrocking gaslighting the person who is sensible enough to get out and into a stable vessel. It can't find it so if anyone can and can post it it might be helpful open. Your situation really spoke to me in relation to this.

Purplrayhan posted this on a previous Stately Homes thread:-

Thought this from another thread might be helpful to anyone who hasn't see it. Hopefully@singlemummanurse wont mind me copying and sharing here.

#Don't rock the boat.

I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Becausewearen't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.

At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.

The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.

The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?

Ballast!

And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.

A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it,because it did.

When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see thatyouaren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.

Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.

While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something!

So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.

EgoswhereIgo the idea of them enabling each other by both being violent is a really interesting and helpful suggestion. Its definitely different to the type of enablers I have seen described but that makes sense. I'll look into it more. I'm so grateful to Stately homes and some you tubers as things I learned meant I gave my partner an informal diagnosis of something that relates to childhood trauma. Hes had a formal diagnosis from a psychiatrist yesterday and is in the process of being set of with the right kind of medical help. I'm so grateful to whoever made this thread as my fiance is over the moon about the fact hes going to get the right help to get better : )

EgoeswhereIgo tried to tag you below but spelt your name wrong lol

@Thehouseofmarvels, the @ function confuses me too😳🤭
I'm not sure it would come under the generally accepted definition of enabler, normalising or condoning might be a better term?
Glad to hear that your fiance is making progress😊
Thanks for retrieving the boat metaphor Attila, it's so apt!

@Thehouseofmarvels

EgoswhereIgo the idea of them enabling each other by both being violent is a really interesting and helpful suggestion. Its definitely different to the type of enablers I have seen described but that makes sense. I'll look into it more. I'm so grateful to Stately homes and some you tubers as things I learned meant I gave my partner an informal diagnosis of something that relates to childhood trauma. Hes had a formal diagnosis from a psychiatrist yesterday and is in the process of being set of with the right kind of medical help. I'm so grateful to whoever made this thread as my fiance is over the moon about the fact hes going to get the right help to get better : )

Glad to hear that house of marvels. I've had a formal diagnosis of complex trauma now - also known as complex PTSD after having vivid hallucinations of angels and I'm on medication now and have weekly follow up with psychiatry as I often feel suicidal. I asked my psychiatrist to send me a copy of the report and I feel vindicated by that piece of paper. I also feel so ANGRY that my so called parents did this to me and that I have had almost 50 years of psychiatric illness because of people who were supposed to love me.

I'm sorry to those that are having a tough time of it at the moment. I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said by more eloquent posters.

@Iamaperiwinkle - I hope you are ok, it must be so hard living in such close proximity to your parents. I understand the ongoing wish to be able to have a relationship with them; but I suspect @AttilaTheMeerkat is right (as usual) and such a relationship would only make your life more miserable.

@CeciledeVolanges - how are you doing? I haven't seen you post in a while.

I'm feeling a bit of lingering sadness at the moment for the relationship I thought/wished I had with M.

The hard part of all the therapy I had, is that I'm not angry anymore. I understand that she's wired the way she is, and cannot be anything different.

I have done the hard work and I honestly forgive her for the way I was treated as a child. She did her best, and unfortunately her best fell short in painful ways, because of her upbringing.

If I didn't have children I think I could maintain a distant but relatively cordial relationship with her (most of the time).

But I do have children, and I've seen far too many times that she is incapable of correcting her mistakes, and was already beginning to treat my children the same way.

Plus she threatened court for access to the children, rather than actually accept that there might be a problem. Then backed out when I agreed to it, and put my side across. I was apparently inappropriate for daring to speak to her like that (honestly and openly, and respectfully).

We moved house (and then moved again - but keeping our house) and recently she's been posting about how she's been out nearby (when she shouldn't know where the house is). Not sure how the cat is out of the bag - but it doesn't really matter as I'm not there at the moment.

I'm sad because I wish there was a fix, but there isn't one. I've had to basically cut out my entire family because of endless flying monkeys.

I know logically that it's the right decision, but I wish it didn't have to be the only decision.

My MIL appears to have forgotten that we aren't in contact (she's getting older and a little forgetful) and asked how my family were doing with Covid. I was noncommittal but felt that ache at knowing that I'm going to have to say (again) that we aren't in contact.

Its easier with new people, I just say I'm not that close to my family and no one even bats an eyelid. It's those people that know about the falls outs that make it hard.

I wonder if it is time for a bit more therapy, or whether these feelings will just ebb and flow a little from time to time.

Sorry, random musings today. x

I have been noticing on this thread - but entirely not surprised - about the regular diagnoses of PTSD - post traumatic stress disorder, and CPTSD, complex post traumatic stress disorder.

PTSD, originally known as "shell-shock" from the first world war, was indicative of those men who had been exposed to and experienced terrible events that left them unable to function.

I won't bore you with the rest of it.

Only recently, some women have been diagnosed with the same syndrome. It was recognised that we had been exposed to and suffered from the same environment. Dealing with the imminent danger of threat, violence, stress of unknown situations.

We all know what that means.

This thread is filling up, so we'll be needing a new one soon.

Sending love and solidarity to everyone who is dealing with toxic family fall-out. The support we all find here is invaluable.

Today I visited a national trust property at Canons Ashby. To the woman confronting her clearly narcissistic mother regarding her parenting/texts/emotional abuse, well done. I wish I had the guts to do the same.

Insomniac posting time sorry folks... But I really need to seek out a counselor/ therapist. Have been hoping to do this once moved house to be away from family as I feel like it will be a rough ride unpacking it all. But getting any move let alone one at a safe distance from parents that is practical with kids/childcare/ work/ school places is proving really challenging. I don't think it can wait... another doorstop parcel today from them and ive been basically done in for the day. Any recommendations or tips on finding a therapist who would actually appreciate situations discussed on this thread properly?

@shehasadiamondinthesky hallucinations and suicidal thoughts sound all to familiar. What is annoying is that he has had many years of treatment for other mental health stuff and nobody guessed about c ptsd until I started putting two and two together from Stately homes, Sam Vaknin, Google. I do think he should have been diagnosed years ago if certain people were doing their job properly. He is classed a severe and the issues are not remotely subtle. If it had been picked up when he was first seeking help he could have had help 15 years ago. I'm very angry with the people who did this to him. We hope to have a family in the future. We do not plan on informing certain people that they have a grandchild or any nieces or nephews.

My partner has an aunt who he wasn't allowed to talk to even as an adult. His mother said his did not like him and told the aunt my partner did not want contact with her. His mother hates the aunt and does not speak to her. We also think his mother did not want him telling him about the abuse. Would you believe we found out how to contact the aunt online recently and now they email each other and get on great. The aunt has been invited to be a grandma to our future children. His evil mother only has one other grandchild that she sees only a few times a year. I have wondered what her reaction would be if she found out that her behaviour had caused us to remove Grandma rights and gift them to her despised sister.

Checking in. Just made the promise to myself to go NC with my narcissistic mum for the final time and actually follow through with it this time.

Long time user of MN here, have name changed because this is sooooo outing. Just hope none of those involved are on here.

We see my partner's family on a regular basis and I get on well with them all although they live about three hours away so not round the corner or too involved.

My partner's family background is dysfunctional. His mother left when he was a small child to live with her lover. Left her children with her husband, raised her lover's children. Subsequently my partner's sister (although not so much my partner) has been deeply affected by this and has had two failed marriages. Both her children have mental health issues, one I would say trauma based, the other probably genetic. I am not an expert, just trying to give you a picture.

Anyway, my partner's sister has been having an affair with her daughter's husband for a few years which has been admitted to the daughter recently. The daughter has been separated from the husband for quite a few years, not divorced and he has custody of their children because she had drinking issues and is deemed not capable of having residential care although she looks after them on a regular basis.

The daughter approached me yesterday and asked me whether it would okay to phone me when she is in crisis. She has a history of self-harming and an eating disorder. I have spoken to her about my dysfunctional family history and my long term therapy which I am happy to say has been life changing for me. I have encouraged her to get into one to one therapy as she seems to have been passed from pillar to post in the health system.

However, I am a bit uncomfortable with the situation as this is not my circus and I don't want to be placed in the middle of this hugely complicated issue. The crux of it is basically the daughter does not want her 'ex husband' and mother to see each other anymore. They have broken up but continue to go walking together and entertaining for meals at his house with the grandchildren. She is eaten up with worry about them becoming involved again and it has set off her eating disorder and self harming again but can't get the courage to be totally honest with her mother because she feels guilty about upsetting her. I have suggested she organises a therapy session including her mother so that the therapist can advocate for her is necessary.

I have spoken to my partner and he has offered to speak to his sister on his niece's behalf to make her see how damaging her behaviour is to her daughter.

This is pretty messed up and making me very uncomfortable to be involved. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

@Disingenousdilemma
It's very messed up!
the mother is involved with her daughter's husband as a way toget one over on the daughter and getting control over those children, it's an attempt to usurp her daughter and prove that she is 'the fairest of them all' not her daughter.
There's no way that she can stop her mother having this relationship and if she tries to her mother will only delight in twisting The knife further.
In other words 'making her see how damaging the behaviour is', is futile ....she's doing it in order to cause damage, well that's my take on the situation having read your post, perhaps I've misunderstood things?

The most bizarre thing about this is the mother doesn't come across as evil or vindictive at all. Mother and daughter spend lots of time together and seem to get on very well. Can only describe it as toxic love presenting as familial love. I cannot imagine behaving like this towards my daughter.

The issue is mother is 'in love' with son-in-law but knows it's wrong. She's quite needy herself. Daughter, with very good reason, can't cope with this situation but doesn't want to upset her mother. Daughter's husband is suitable age for mother, lot older than daughter. I think family have been turning a blind eye to this for a long time although I am sure daughter has suspected as her issues have been ignited for quite a while. She ended up going into residential treatment recently, unsuccessful, didn't last long.

My thinking is they should all get into family therapy and be honest with each other. Partner wants to 'confront' his sister. From my own family experience I can't see this ending well. Daughter has asked for my support because she can't turn to anyone else. I am willing to guide but not be sucked into this.

I suppose we could say that the mother is acting unconsciously driven by unprocessed trauma from her own childhood? I feel like the daughter is in danger here, it's very heavy for you, not to mention for them. Can you be supportive whilst at the same time maintaining that professional help is also required and you don't know what the best way through is?
I agree that confrontation sounds risky, too much heat and pressure which can't be controlled could lead to bad outcomes.

Hi all.
Just checking in. I've had really really bad anxiety. My house sale is going through but trying to find somewhere to rent is impossible-I've viewed two and applied for two and wasn't accepted. Another viewing tomorrow. Just to book movers -nowhere to move my stuff to etc.

Feel very stressed. Father's day in 20 days and daughter's birthday.
Ex husband has been a bit of an arse (again). MHT said I wasn't bad enough for them to deal with (despite being suicidal) and I'm better off with long term therapy. No contact since then (last week) with them. Have counselling again tomorrow. I just can't sleep. My stomach clenches and my mind just whirs so I'm exhausted.