March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I feel so, so sorry for both of them. They aren't bad people. They are both kind and loving and have been very generous towards me. If anyone is cupable here it's the husband/son in law. He comes across as so nice but his behaviour is a bit iffy. He broke up with the mother because he was seeing another person and was threatening to move himself and the children away to get away. That has now finished, he's staying and looks like he's fishing around the mother again. I have suggested getting a therapist to mediate an open and frank discussion between them.

If anyone has any suggestions how we, my partner and I, can help I would be grateful?

I mean mother and daughter attending therapy. Husband/son in law does not need to be involved.

Hi all
Just wondered if anyone has any advice on how to deal with well wishers who offer unhelpful advice on how to deal with narcissistic mothers? A friend of mine suggested this weekend that I shouldn’t be pushed around by her and that I shouldn’t let her push me out the family. She said I should continue to go to family events etc even though narc mother has led a smear campaign against me. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you x

@annabel19 I think unfortunately sometimes friends who are both from normal backgrounds and have partners from normal backgrounds. Its difficult to make people understand. My partner went no contact with his mother at Christmas and was already no contact with the rest of his family. He has started talking to an estranged aunt. Also he has started talking to a first cousin once removed who has no siblings or children so wants more family. Do you have any family your mother either doesn't speak to, that she might not speak to because they just a cousin? My partner has never or spoken to his mother's cousin but we found her online and asked her for a relationship which she enthusiastically agreed to. With the aunt, cousin and her husband we plan on having our own family events away from drama.

[quote Thehouseofmarvels]@annabel19 I think unfortunately sometimes friends who are both from normal backgrounds and have partners from normal backgrounds. Its difficult to make people understand. My partner went no contact with his mother at Christmas and was already no contact with the rest of his family. He has started talking to an estranged aunt. Also he has started talking to a first cousin once removed who has no siblings or children so wants more family. Do you have any family your mother either doesn't speak to, that she might not speak to because they just a cousin? My partner has never or spoken to his mother's cousin but we found her online and asked her for a relationship which she enthusiastically agreed to. With the aunt, cousin and her husband we plan on having our own family events away from drama. [/quote]
I agree with this. Most of my friends with normal parents ask 'But why?' 'What have you done?' etc almost victim blaming. My ex hit me and then sent me 1000s of abusive messages the court judge (one of them) turned to me in court and asked me 'So Ms A why does Mr A behave like this? ' etc he was standing right there -ask him - NOT ME! Fortunately one of the other judges (there were 3 mag court) stepped in and said questions direct to him but I remember clearly thinking WTF you are asking me why someone abuses me.

Others say -'Oh just stop contacting them -and cut them off' -they are my ENTIRE family. I want them to love me, I want them to restore and heal -although I accept this probably won't happen and ATM and others give useful advice. Since everything kicked off 12 weeks ago I've been suicidal, homeless,, unable to sleep, my hair has fallen out -because my NC is linked to money and a home -we were staying there. Whereas a 'normal' parent might phone me and ask how I'm doing I get radio silence or indeed -emails and when I replied neutrally and suggested picking up my post etc -I was redirected to a FM to contact them even though they contacted me. I can't perceive of doing what my parents do -to my children. I just can't. I've been on Anti D a few days and I can feel my mood just starting to lift and anxiety lessen.

I encouraged the idea of my partner connecting with other people to make his own family because my Dad was doing family history, found and reached out to someone with whom we have a common ancestor in Victorian times. I spoke to her the other day in fact. She sent me a photo of a poem the brother of an ancestor wrote in the 1840s!
She made it clear she wanted a connection. So I thought if some fourth or fifth cousin total stranger wanted to connect surely closer relatives would want to be a family with my partner? As a result the no contact pain has been eased because he has relatives now. When he is ready I hope other relatives will be found, and by the time we have own own children I hope he will have a full and happy family life with lovely get togethers. No contact is very painful and he used to get so upset talking about how he had no family.. but slowly we are solving the issue. I don't know if my method can work for anyone else but it looks to be working for us.

@Thehouseofmarvels
I’m still in contact with some family eg an aunt who I see in person and some other aunts I text and speak to. I find it so upsetting to be in contact with these people, I feel horrified by what my mother has said and feel like these relatives are pitying me. I feel uncomfortable visiting my home town which makes me so angry because most of my close friends live here. I’m glad to hear things are working out for you though- maybe I should look further back into family. Thank you xx
@lamaperwinkle
So sorry to hear what’s happened to you- sounds awful. People just don’t understand xxx

@annabel19 You could do your family tree. You could then look up all living members to who the family tree might be useful, cousins of parents, cousins of grandparents, ect. You could contact every person and explain you have made a family tree and wanted to see it anyone on the tree would like a copy. I think it would be ok to contact more distant family you don't normally talk to like this. If someone contacted me like that, even if I didn't know them I would think that was a nice thing to do. You could use it as a conversation opener so you could chat to them a little bit. If they seemed chatty and interested you could look into building a relationship. Not everyone is interested in talking to distant or estranged family! However people have their own reasons; my partners aunt and cousin could not have children and the aunt lived alone after losing 2 husband's by the time she retired. Cousin is also only child. The distant relative my Dad found loves family history and they have personal possessions owned by our common ancestor so feel connected to us ( so do we in fact, both families have an item with his name on it). Elderly distant relatives who live alone might be incredibly grateful for more family contact, people who like family history or people who are extroverted and love meeting new people like myself. If your method works you could fade the relationships with anyone your mother talks to and focus on building new ones. It's taking your power back! Good Luck! Imagine how good it will feel to realise you are building new relationships and your mother's smear campaign has no effect.

Nobody goes NC for no reason. And those reasons are invariably complex and upsetting. It has taken me a very long time to emotionally detach from my family members - 2 brothers, one of whom is disabled and the other an alcoholic, 1 sister who is a toxic nightmare covert narc, and a mother who was horrifically abusive throughout my childhood.

I don't know why I bothered with any of them, always trying to fix the unfixable, bending over backwards to help everyone whenever they needed it.

Being an older bird, there was no such thing as the internet and it is only in my later years that I learned about the complex psychology of toxic family dynamics. I also learned that there is nothing to be gained when you're the nominated family punchbag. I don't even care any more about the why's and wherefores.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Of course it's really hard for people to understand when they come from more normal family backgrounds. But there was nothing normal about my family of origin. It was utterly fucked-up and built on lies and appearances. I'm only sorry that I put up with it for so long. What a waste of all those years.

What a waste of all those years
Yes if I could go back 30 years with what I understand now, I could have easily outmanoeuvred them, but there was no possible route for me to understand things back then.
Looking back much of it is down to FOG, but also confusion and I automatically gave them the benefit of any doubt, always saw then as the 'proper adults' the people who knew what to do and I was just a useless idiot person who couldn't get it together.
Now I see that the reason pfkaf (person formerly known as father) did so well in life and was so well thought of... it's because he refuses to acknowledge anything which is not in his favour, if something bad happened which could destroy his reputation (such as his infant daughter being a victim of the family paedophile with whom he was best buddies) his response is to act quickly, shut that sh1t down, do whatever you have to to make sure she keeps her mouth shut. Make her feel like it was her fault and no one will believe her. The king must always hold onto his crown.

Also my partner is trying to make new friends.. he already has friends but focusing on trying to build new relationships whether more distant family or new friends takes up headspace and serves as a distraction from the fact he is no contact with all immediate family if you see what I mean.

@Sicario it really does feel like a waste. Looking back over my relationship - sorry, 15 year sentence - with The Hag I reflect what an utter Fucking waste of time it’s been trying to be reasonable with someone so toxic.

And I’m REALLY glad you’ve escaped. These Bastards are so good at the abuse that it’s hard to imagine a normal life outside of Camp Toxic. And when “normal” is in reach they up the ante. And when they’re cut off they STILL try. Like cockroaches.

It’s really sad for people here that they aren’t “believed”. I think few people who’ve not experienced the hell of a dysfunctional family have that insight. I know I didn’t until I met MM.

I had a GLORIOUS weekend away at my mum’s with Mr Monkey. A normal mother who loves without strings. I TOTALLY realise my good fortune from the stories here and my experience with The Hag, my absolute c**t of a mother in law.

Over the weekend MM didn’t ring her as he planned.

We didn’t talk about it until yesterday evening when we got home and he said he wasn’t going to ring her every day at 6pm from now on.

She’s manipulated him into this daily call over lockdown and post the 10 HIDEOUS weeks of her being here, so,, enmeshing him in the same way she has done with B-I-L. B-I-L gets up to eight calls a day.

Now she has the B-I-L back in her clutches as of 17 May, it’s game-on. He’s back driving her around every day (as predicted) so she can go into a plethora of supermarkets to peer at ready meals and kick off at being diabetic. All played out to the soundtrack of her being fucking horrible to her 60 something year old son WHO TAKES IT.

This morning on one of her journeys - I’m going to call her Lady Penelope - the Hag Mobile (BIL’s car) drives up to our house, parks, MM is summoned to the car as she needs to give something to him.

Cue big drama. Played out on the pavement. Classy.

“How are you?” MM to Hag
“Alright I suppose, although no one wants anything to do with me”
“That’s not true”. I don’t see her or speak to her now so I wasn’t there to scream it fucking is. Shame I was at my desk.
Etc etc etc ramping up to:
“Aren’t you going to hug your mother?”
Which he does.
“I don’t think that’s a proper hug”

Blah blah blah - all the usual manipulative bollocks / straightforward spleen.

I go off to get my haircut. Next part of cutting her out. I’ve returned to my usual expensive hairdresser which is 1) too expensive for her and I’ll be exaggerating the price further. I’m thinking of £1200 for cut and colour. She can then bitch that I’m totally extravagant 2) too far on a bus for the Hag and 3) zillions in a cab.

This means we can’t both go to the cheaper place - £23 is viewed as too much by the Hag and constantly whined about - round the corner. Therefore, she will have to go back to the pre-pandemic place chauffeured by BIL. airpunch

I’m then down to zero exposure to her.

I get home. MM and I sit in the garden. Drink wine,

The phone rings at 6.50pm. It’s The Hag wondering why - of course - he’s not phoned her at 6pm. Cue massive drama.

He - of course - can’t be properly assertive after 53 years of dealing with the witch.

And we’re back at Square One. He’s not filled in the fucking bastard form for therapy because he’s scared he’ll “get people into trouble”.

Much as The Hag should be prosecuted for child abuse; the 70s was a time when social workers didn’t go after much beyond the “worst” cases of abuse. What does that “worst case” even fucking mean? The worst cases? Aaaaaagh. So, loads of people discount their experiences of violence, physical and sexual and emotional abuse because it “wasn’t as bad as some people”. This is how abuse works.

He lives with the consequences of her abuse every single day - I think it’s PTSD - and, therefore, I do, too. I would love to see her walled up in some medieval convent for what she did/does.

This “I’ll get people into trouble” is, of course, him sub-consciously STILL being scared of her. Funny he’s been saying a lot of “she used to say they’d take me away” recently. She has done an absolute number on her sons.

Now when I bring the form up there’s the inference of me “nagging”. Which I HATE.

I’m absolutely fucking sick of his fucked up disaster toxic shit show of a family.

I want to ring at her and scream what an utter fucking Bitch she is. Of course, I won’t. Too nicely brought up (damn you, sane parents!) and she would like NOTHING MORE than to prompt a reaction and aid the “poor old me”/“my daughter in law is a bitch” narrative. And, preferably, split us up.

So, back to therapy for me. Whoop.

I honestly can’t believe this is my life. I’m sat on the bed crying and MM - because he’s a complete victim of Stockholm Syndrome/dickhead - is sat downstairs watching shit telly. Yes, it’s a Stockholm Syndrome, but he does need to KEEP ON standing up to the utter Fucking 84 year old bitch in his life. It’s better than it was years ago when he (and I) couldn’t see the toxic game playing because she wasn’t knocking seven bells out of him. Yes, he now sees the emotional abuse BUT HE NEEDS TO SORT IT OUT BY GETTING PROFESSIONAL HELP.

Now planning to go to my mum’s for the weekend to paint the shed. And I hate DIY!

@EgoeswhereIgoes I’m so sorry that happened to you and your father put his ego first. Your nickname for him is priceless - there’s a lot of people here who have, despite everything, the most brilliant senses of humour.

I honestly can’t believe this is my life. I’m sat on the bed crying
Oh Monkey:(
it's so awful that she still wields such power over her sons.
With this here:
................
“Aren’t you going to hug your mother?”
Which he does.
“I don’t think that’s a proper hug”
.................
That is her deliberately and knowingly pressing the button that turns him back into a 5-year old child, or a puppet on a string, isn't it
despicable:(
Can you role play with him, be the hag, say the phrases she uses and get him to practise shutting her down?

@EgoeswhereIgoes

Thank you. It absolutely is. She’s viler than vile.

Funny how she becomes ‘Caring Hag’ (although this is totally fake) when he’s been out of her grasp for…gosh…six days. She loaded it on yesterday as she was panicking that the Narc Tokens supplied by MM were slipping out of grasp.

She knows EXACTLY what she’s doing.

As soon as we landed home from my mum’s he went from energetic to tired - actually that kicked in yesterday when he knew there was an expectation to call her or would be called.

Interestingly, he suggested going to my mum’s to paint her shed. This dawned on me this morning. Going “away” where he doesn’t have to call is his way out. TBH, I would have gone NC years ago if I was related to the Hag.

I’ve just booked a week in Portugal for a solo trip in 2022. She will love that. Unless I’ve pushed her under a bus by then.

@Comeinoutoftherain your post resonated. I am NC (or very very LC) with my DM. I don’t know your backstory (only read back a few pages, I’m a long time lurker and serial name hanger and just pop in every now and again).

I had therapy a couple of years when it all kicked off, which really helped at the time. Now I just feel left with a sadness and a feeling of “well what happens now?” because I know it’ll never truly be resolved, and I don’t know if the FOG will ever truly lift.

And as time goes on I question myself a bit more - does she really deserve this? Was she that bad? Was she right that I’m a cruel daughter?

I guess all this comes with the territory. Another nice gift to be lumbered with as the child of a very subtle yet self-absorbed narcissist.

@Loonymoony I know what you mean. I feel exactly the same way.

I name change too, so the backstory would be impossible to find - and it's fairly typical of many others in this thread. I doubt it would stand out!

DH asked me about it last night - abs I just said that it was fairly hopeless. She can't change, and I can't expose the kids to it. So that's kind of that.

It's just a bit sad, all of it. Not everything in life can be fixed, but it still leaves a hole where a loving parent should be.

Hi All. New poster here!

I was wondering if I could ask people's thoughts on something that happened a couple of years ago but which is still on my mind. It was an example of my parent's behaviour which ended up being a bit of a revelatory moment for me about our relationship.

Twoish years ago I was hospitalised with a life-threatening illness.

By 3 days in to the hospital admission I was starting to get better but still unwell - on IV fluids, antibiotics etc, still being monitored by the ITU outreach team. I was in a lot of pain and hadn't yet been able to see my (breastfed) baby. I had a call from my DH to say that my parents had mentioned that my SIL was coming to visit me that day (At that point in time I didn't know her particularly well). I didn't feel up to a visit. I also didn't feel up to dealing with my parents/SIL so asked my DH to politely but firmly pass on the message to my dad to convey to my SIL that I was very tired due to hourly observations throughout the night and not feeling up to visitors that day.

A couple of hours later I was woken up by the nurse to say my SIL and her friend (who I'd never met before) had come to visit. SIL acknowledged that she'd received the message from my dad about me being too tired for visitors but that they'd decided to visit as they were 'in the area.' I made polite conversation with my SIL and her friend and they stayed for maybe half an hour or so.

To be honest I was pretty annoyed that she'd come when I'd asked her not too and I phoned my mum and that point to let her know what had happened and vent my frustration a little (quite calmly I think, certainly no shouting/screaming). Our relationship isn't such that I would usually do that - I've learned to hide problems from her due to her negative reactions to them - but I felt tired and ill and vulnerable and I think fell back into some kind of default thinking that talking to my mum would help. It certainly didn't and I immediately had the feeling I'd made a mistake in phoning her - she became emotionally distant and seemed quite annoyed/upset with me.

The next day I was feeling a bit better (but obviously not great) and she and my dad came to visit me in hospital with my DH and baby. As soon as my parents arrived the atmosphere felt frosty - sometimes with my mum I just get a feeling I've displeased her without her necessarily having to say anything.

When my DH left the room for a bit to settle our baby they both confronted me about the phone call yesterday - how it had upset my mum and that they were 'worried' about my mental health and how unreasonable I was being to have reacted that way to my SIL's visit (and kindness). Although they said that they were worried about me, it did not feel like genuine concern, more that they were pulling me up on unreasonable behaviour. Just to reiterate I was not rude at all to my SIL and friend at the time, I was polite and welcoming as far as I'm aware. I mentioned that I'd found it fairly awkward to make polite conversation with her friend (a stranger) when ill and in pain and they said I was being selfish as apparently her friend had recently been in hospital herself and was therefore understandably concerned about me.

My mum also talked repeatedly about a mini-break my parents were due to go on that day and about how visiting me in hospital had meant that they were going to miss a meal they had booked on their first day. (I hadn't asked them to visit me or to postpone their break). Holidays are a big priority for them - at that point in time pre-Covid they averaged about 6+ holidays a year, so it wasn't as though this meal was a massive missed opportunity for them.

They left quite shortly after that for their holiday leaving me on my own in tears (I didn't cry in front of them, only after they'd left). To be honest the visit from my SIL wasn't a big deal and if it wasn't for my parent's reaction I'd have been laughing about it in a couple of days' time once I'd got over the initial annoyance. But I found my parent's reaction and inability to respect my boundaries/consider my point of view to be telling and distressing, especially when I was going through a serious illness. It seemed like this one example summed up our overall relationship but that I'd been kidding myself up until then that deep down they had my best interests at heart (my mum always told me growing up what an amazing mother she was and how lucky I was to have her.)

I'm struggling to get clear in my head whether they are just 'normally flawed' parents and that I should just grow up and accept that nobody's parents are perfect, or whether it might be something more like narcissistic traits on my mum's part with my dad as her enabler. This wasn't a one-off incident but perhaps the most telling example of a long-term pattern of behaviour on their part. In many ways they were 'good' parents and I was always well taken care of from a physical perspective, had music lessons, input and interest with schoolwork, etc. It was more the emotional side of things which I feel
were perhaps neglected - I was on the receiving end of bullying at school and later became depressed, and both of these things were just completely brushed under the carpet by both of them, e.g. I wasn't taken to the doctor when I was depressed as a teenager, and was shouted at by my mum when I told her and told that she 'already had enough to deal with'. As an adult I struggle with long-term feelings of low self-esteem and loneliness - I'm currently pregnant and frequently tearful at the moment thinking about my relationship with my mum in particular and her lack of emotional support at this time. I'm struggling to reconcile the outward appearance she's always projected as being a great parent, with how it feels to me on the inside.

If anybody has any thoughts/insight I would be really grateful. I really want to 'move on' from negative feelings about my parents and upbringing (with therapy maybe?) and I thought posting here might be a useful first step.

Sorry for the long post!

Thank you.

@Comeinoutoftherainyes, same here. I don’t trust DM not to manipulate my children in some way or another. We live abroad now so have the excuse of distance which helps. I dread the kids getting phones when they’re a bit older as she could then contact them directly and create all sorts of mayhem.

It is really sad for everyone involved. Me, her and the kids, but until I trust her again, I can’t let her in. And really I don’t know if that will ever happen.

@OMeOMy your post resonated with me sooooo much. They should’ve had your back when you were ill and tired and vulnerable. They should’ve respected your boundaries.

My DM is quite self absorbed and subtly narcissistic (though on here I’ve been told she’s very narcissistic by very helpful and knowledgeable others). When my DC were tiny she would frequently undermine me, and it was around that time when I really realized things weren’t right between us. I was early 30s then but had always had this sense of having a “difficult mother” but thought it was my fault too.

Mumsnet pointed me in the direction of the website www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/ and everything fell into place. It was not an easy realization but definitely a lightbulb moment.

Armed with this new information and some tips on how to manage, I used the grey-rock (google it!) technique for several years. I kept her at arms length without her really noticing but felt that it protected me.

Then after a particularly nasty episode about 3 years ago,our relationship fell apart. At that point I found a therapist and my god it was amazing to have someone pick through the emotions and untangle things. But since then I’ve been very very low contact with DM.

It’s been a long journey and not an easy one. I don’t really like being NC but feel it’s the least worst situation.

It sounds like your starting out on a similar journey. The experts on this thread will no doubt be along soon to give you some great advice. It’s not easy to accept all this, and being pregnant may make it even harder. I would definitely recommend reading up on the topic and also getting therapy. I wish I had done it earlier tbh. This hard stuff to get your head around, with highly complex emotions, and really I think a professional counsellor is the only way to work through it.

Best wishes to you

@OMeOMy
I think always trust your instincts with these things.

It sounds like your mother puts herself first and your SIL might be cut from the same cloth. Narcissists want their perfect world and you’re the extension of that - so, your SIL visiting (with her friend!) is to be taken by you as ‘absolutely fine’ because your mum is fine with it.

Maybe, your mum couldn’t see this ‘attention’ as not what you’d want as your mum would always want attention. She simply couldn’t understand why you wouldn’t because of her narcissistic behaviours.

Narcissists fear things that will reflect badly on them, too. It’s a heightened “what would the neighbours think?” X 1 million.

The holiday meal? Good grief.

Hi Loonymoony

re your comment:-
"I dread the kids getting phones when they’re a bit older as she could then contact them directly and create all sorts of mayhem".

That clearly cannot be allowed to happen.

How would she get hold of their phone numbers?. She won't be able to do that either if she is not told by either you or your children that they have phones. Do your children often ask about your mother and how do you respond to such enquiries?.

Your mother was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed since that time. You have physical distance, put more mental distance between you all and she too now.

Hello @OMeOMy and welcome to the gang. I think we all find it pretty hard to get our heads around these dysfunctional (often awful) family behaviours. You're in good company here with lots of posters who will totally get your point of view and understand how difficult this is.

Well at the moment the only contact is Xmas and birthdays. She sends (quite a lot of) gifts and I feel compelled to video call her to watch the kids opening them.

On each occasion I hate this “call with DGM” intruding on our day, and find it a very odd message for the kids (ie that they can expect presents from her but no real contact at other times). Last Xmas I felt a bit stronger and just sent a thank you text with a photo of them with presents opened already.

But really the kids don’t talk about her much. I, from advice on here, have gently alluded to the fact that DGM wasn’t always very kind to me and therefore we don’t speak very much. They just kind of shrug it off.

They know we call other DGPs and gave a nicer relationship with them. DC, ask to send messages to them so I think they feel the difference between the different sets.

The Hag approaches. 1.30pm. She is coming round to pick up the new mobile phone that Mr Monkey has sorted for her. Hopefully, the exchange of this can be outside on the pavement so she doesn't pollute our house with her spleen. The brother in law will have chauffeured her to the supermarket of the day (I think it's Tesco today). She did the moan fest yesterday to MM - her flat is a mess, she can’t bear it, but she doesn't want to spend her money to replace the ripped sofa/armchair (all under control), her clothes are a mess, she's lonely, no one rings her (she can sort this), she just wants to die (you can guess what I think about that - sorry, that sounds harsh but she's vile and abusive)

The last element of control she has over me is taking her to the fucking hairdressers. I'm going to show off my new shiny haircut so she knows, just as she thinks, that “I put myself first” by not taking her to my usual hairdresser (no fucking way am I ruining that treat), nor am I taking her in pensioner day or during the week (I work, despite her thinking I don’t 😳) and I might take her on a Saturday to the salon nearby. If she's in a vile mood today, I will leave this duty to MM (he's offered, but I'm conscious of his Saturday).

The more headspace I have from her, I realise that 1) she never asks me about my work/my life 2) she's stopped asking about my mum as she realised that my mum DOES know what she's like and does have an OPINION and wants me and MM to be happy 4) she hated us staying at my mum’s for a weekend last week as it was clear we prefer my mum, and we weren't putting The Hag first by staying here after she kicked off and tried every manipulation in the book, AND we weren't going to ring her every day for six days when we were away 5) her total lack of empathy: giving me NO support when my dad died and not coming to the funeral, she was asked.

I'm going to flaunt the new haircut, suggest the BIL takes her to her post-lockdown salon (she moans anyway about the place I take her to and the prices)

I'm off to paint the garden furniture and gird my loins for the visitstion. She really is a miserable Hag who wants us to feel like SHIT.

She's going to LOVE the news of our weekend in Wales for my and my mum’s birthday that's coming up.