March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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March 2015 - Nov 2015
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I also suddenly realised how much I love my children and how much I would do anything to protect them, whereas my parents (mother, mainly but also my absent father) had never protected me, had actually put me in danger, had brought me to unsafe places

This resonated. My parents loved me, but they loved themselves and each other more. Their decisions were made accordingly.

I ended up in an abusive relationship because I couldn't see that it was abusive. But when I eventually did see, leaving was easy, although upsetting. Because I always knew that love isn't enough. Without respect and kindness it doesn't work. Children need protection and care too. I think now that if a person doesn't show these other attributes it isn't really love, just a shadow of it.

When it comes to our own feelings of love, it's possible to love someone without being near them. Although it's difficult, I don't think one has to realise they don't love someone to get them out of their life. It's easier to do under those circumstances. But it's possible to cut someone out because it's the right thing to do, whilst still loving them. The two don't have to go together.

When I left my ex my feelings was one of "I love you but I can't be near you because you're bad for me" I didn't see the abuse until after I'd left. When I really started taking proper care of myself, putting my own wellbeing and needs over other people's wants, that's when it all fell apart with my family.

At one point I was in a relationship heading towards marriage. My reaction was to remove all family and mutual friends/acquaintances from Facebook so they wouldn't see anything. I wanted my wedding to be about me and DP getting married, not about other people's feelings about me getting married. I thought given how little I see my family it would be easy not to tell them if I was pregnant. I didn't even have a child but my natural instinct was to keep it away from them. It makes the way they behaved when I was a child even more incomprehensible.

@MonkeyfromManchester I've been following these threads for some time and I wondered whether your BIL is aware of how the Hag controls him? Has he ever had a heart to heart with your DH about it?

@Level75
i think he is - but I think he’s got Stockholm Syndrome.

The way she talks to her sons is incredible but he gets the worse of it - screaming, shouting, sulking, putting the phone down on him. She’s like a teenager/small horrible toddler from The Omen.

BIL keeps saying yes to her and keeps saying to us ‘I shouldn’t put up with it’. He doesn’t answer back, he just sits there, and to us laughs it off. But you can see the damage. His life is her and the pub for a couple of drinks in the afternoon.

He wanted to go on a cruise a couple of years ago, got all the brochures, and then thought the kick off with her would be too hideous. He’s 64!

The idea for getting her new furniture for the hovel was him saying he’d won the lottery!!!! He hid going out for a meal with MM because he didn’t want a row with her as she’d want to muscle in. She found out and went MAD. He hasn’t bought a mobility car because she doesn’t like the idea of it. Ffs.

I think she’s so good at hammering away at self-esteem and self-determination to the point of erosion. I’ve now got the line: it’s his choice. MM agrees. He says his piece and then leaves him to it.

Personally, I think he’s lost the last 20 years of his life and she’s stopped any chance of him having a relationship. He’s not in the best of health and he will probably go to an early grave having had a shit time with her.

I’m so proud of MM, despite having low self-esteem because of her and the bullying from his brothers including BIL, for fighting back.

More and more things occur to me about her. Hag wanted to totally enmesh sister in law who came to this country from overseas aged 19 to marry the Golden Boy (he’s a total shit)

Just realised by cosying up to her DIL Hag thought she could control her. SiL - now 40 - is a powerhouse, got older and wiser and keeps her at a distance and divorced the sexually, physically and emotionally abusive shit of a husband (GB).

Hag has got two difficult DILs, an absconded Golden Boy (who’s not stayed in touch with Hag - total rejection) a scapegoat (MM) who’s got assertive and the Slave is less able to do stuff for her. Don’t think we’ll be taking over Slave Duties.

Good job I’ve got that care package in place. winks

The 6pm phone call approaches. Got my G&T and armchair. This is going to be GOOD!

Personally, I think he’s lost the last 20 years of his life and she’s stopped any chance of him having a relationship. He’s not in the best of health and he will probably go to an early grave having had a shit time with her
she has devoured her own son, made herself a squatter in his life.
I want to link to this and ask you all to remember that we 'are the sons and the daughters of life's longing for itself'

I've just had my first counselling session. I've been on the verge of suicide for weeks. GP is aware.
I feel different. She called it a trauma and I'm a soldier weary in battle and it's recovery and drama.

On the other side. I did reply to their emails via text a few weeks days ago just saying I could arrange to pick up whenever -they didn't reply and then daughter noticed it must be because they have blocked me -but they hadn't blocked her -so she texted them and explained it looked like they blocked me and could I arrange to collect post.

They texted immediately to me to say 'Contact FM to arrange' so I broke down about that -counsellor said it is ALL about control. All about them. But I need to do what I want -contact FM or not is down to me. I'm still in a tizz about it

Monkey your poor BIL but there's nothing you can do, especially if he's willing to go along with her to the extent of bullying MM. The Hag sounds proper evil. When BIL is no longer able to help her out I wonder if she'll totally drop him? Having ruined his life and sucked him dry. She's the ultimate vampire personality isn't she. Hope the phone call isn't too awful. Enjoy your holiday, you deserve it.

@EgoeswhereIgoes
Thank you so much for that beautiful song.
@Iamaperiwinkle hang in there. I’m so glad you’ve got a great GP & your counsellor is now in place. Being believed by professionals is so important. Once my counsellor had identified the Hag as a coercive narcissist I totally got her behaviour and how to push back. It’s hard to believe but you WILL get through this. We’re all rooting for you and all here.

Hag has just phoned. ‘Nice Hag version’.
Hilarious.

Thanks @openwaterswimming, I literally feel like I could have written your post! I do feel like I'm responsible for their happiness, not sure why? Maybe as my dad kept telling me we were the only reason he kept living... I'm just too 'nice' with everyone, and lockdown and having now two daughters has made me realise I need to change. In a way it feels quite nice to have this to focus on as it feels quite positive! Just need to figure out what I actually want to achieve here.

@MonkeyfromManchester - MM is lucky to have you.

Being believed by professionals is so important
agree 100%

@Level75 thank you. He’s the epitome of kindness and decency. You wouldn’t believe the Hag was a relation.

Morning all. I'm still reeling from yesterday's therapy session.She called it a life long long term trauma. I also have an appointment with the MHT at lunchtime. I've taken the day off as I was just so exhausted after it. It feels really surreal.

I've literally undone the jar -there isn't any going back -I just am starting to remember how bloody horrific my childhood was. I'm starting to remember the sheer number of times I was punched black and blue and my father claimed I deserved it -for getting a capital city wrong or something in a 'test'. My mother allowed it to happen. All my life deperate to be loved. They started doing the same to my children. Love one and hate the other -the abuse for youngest was awful. I'm just worried I am them -I shout and lose my rag etc and then I sob as I am them -I want to break this cycle.

I have taken a small step and blocked my mum on my phone and WA -so she can't contact me.

the whole things is bizarre -it's mentally insane -they email me and say to arrange to collect my stuff- I reply but they have blocked me -so daughter contacts them and then they reply 'Tell Mummy to go through FM' etc -it is so controlling.

Starting to realise we need to make our own lives without them but with therapy and support.

Hi everyone,

Will try and keep brief!
Currently NC with my mum, she was abusive during my childhood resulting in issues I struggle with today which I’ve started counselling for. Me trying to take on the parent role from a young age, feeling like I have to be a perfectionist to avoid upsetting her etc. Became a parent myself and started questioning her behaviour which finally led to NC.

Her mum, my gran, is someone I still struggle with. Have never felt close to her either even though she has always tried to smother me, insists we’re the closest family ever and have so much love and still calls me a childhood name I hate even though I’m nearly 30. The type that fed me up into obesity as a child out of ‘love’ but then would question your weight. She also has to grab you for a vice grip hug as soon as she sees you and if she hasn’t for a while, this results in her crying.

We lost my grandad 2 years ago and she still refuses to accept it. It was terminal cancer but she convinced herself he would get better, despite him suffering horrendously and needing to be highly medicated at the time so he wasn’t really ‘present’. It’s an awful memory of mine and not something I want to remember.
Signs cards and gifts off as from her and him, even to my DS who wasn’t born when he passed. I struggle with the idea of visiting her because she’s had a pillow made with his face on which she talks to or constantly wants to bring the conversation around to him which results in her crying or talking to DS about him when it’s something I want to bring up in my own time, years in the future, when he’s old enough to understand the concept of family and passing, especially as he never met him.

She keeps messaging me about me bringing DS to her and if I don’t reply, as DP and I both have busy, challenging and shift work jobs so ultimately when we do get time, we want to see our DS and each other, will leave long voicemails about arranging a time, how much she loves me and I’m still her child. It sounds bizarre to some but having someone so insistent on forcing themselves on you, is really hard to deal with.

For one I’m scared she’d have my mum there or for her to conveniently turn up as she only lives around the corner and two, I just really find her so difficult to deal with. I don’t want my DS around someone crying hysterically when he doesn’t understand why, especially when he’s never properly met her due to Covid (the only time was her standing at my window then sliding down it crying hysterically), nor do I constantly want to be reminded of my grandad who is the only one on this side that I had a great relationship with. She’s messaged me before saying how much it hurts her that I’m NC with my mum and why can’t we sort it out. When I explained the issues why, her reply was that she couldn’t see my mum doing that.
I’ve been a bit of an ostrich where it’s concerned and just avoided the issue, taking a few days to reply to set her expectations but I still feel like a bad person and feel I should really set something more firm in place. Dreaded FOG!!

Hi @Sugaryouth👋😊
from your description I would say that your Gran may have mental health issues, very little insight/self awareness, I completely understand why you want to keep away from her!
I think I can relate to what you say about people forcing themselves on you.. refusing to accept that you don't want to spend as much time with them as they want to spend with you, how very suffocating and uncomfortable it is when someone to whom you feel almost no connection, with whom you have very little in common wants you to be the most important person in their life!
It feels as if they are trying to steal your time away from you.
Block them all.

(.. if only there was an edit function)
It feels weird and inappropriate, the way they try and force upon you things that you do not want and have not asked for and then try in return to extract something from you
A form of love bombing I suppose, but it's so clearly all about them because they haven't checked to see whether the things they are forcing upon you are welcomed, indeed they block out any information to the contrary.
I feel that once again it comes down to trying to force you into an hierarchical framework where they are at the top and you have to obey them

So many stories here that we can all relate to. So many dysfunctional, angry mothers who are outraged when their daughters assert boundaries and start saying NO. It's as though they believe we have absolutely no right to self-agency. It's exhausting.

I wish I had gone NC with my family many many years ago. I walked out of there as a teenager to get away from the abuse. They have no idea I've had periods in my life when I was homeless. No money to eat. Having to walk to work because no bus fare. When I think about it, it's unimaginable that any parents could be that crap.

I'm so glad that we are all here to support each other, and to know that it's not us, it's them. Solidarity to everyone.

@Sicario

So many stories here that we can all relate to. So many dysfunctional, angry mothers who are outraged when their daughters assert boundaries and start saying NO. It's as though they believe we have absolutely no right to self-agency. It's exhausting.

I wish I had gone NC with my family many many years ago. I walked out of there as a teenager to get away from the abuse. They have no idea I've had periods in my life when I was homeless. No money to eat. Having to walk to work because no bus fare. When I think about it, it's unimaginable that any parents could be that crap.

I'm so glad that we are all here to support each other, and to know that it's not us, it's them. Solidarity to everyone.

For me it's my father.

Father is one of 3 brothers. Of one of his brothers -his two children remain completely living at home at aged 50. The other brother has a son and he's reasonable but keeps all of us at arms length. Then my father. All of my issues stem from him -I'm sure of it now.

Forgot to say I have had large parts of my life homeless / suicidal etc I can't imagine my own kids like that. It would break me.

Imaperi, it sounds as if your eyes really have been opened and you can see things much more clearly now?
This is really good, progress! Although it is painful and shocking and can leave you reeling when you realise you've been hoodwinked for such a long time.

I think moving in with them triggered a load of childhood stuff that I had parked. Times, months, years where I sat on the floor in my room in the dark with my back against the wall -doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. Just praying he didn't come in. Just praying for him not to do 'school work' with us -not to get hurt and pride in a tick in his 'book' and not an angry cross ripping across the book.

He took us all every sunday to sunday school and we stayed until midday -and he is a spiting atheist? Everything had a reason -this was so we could see stupidity for ourselves. Not of course that him and my mother wanted peace and quiet all sunday on their own.

I was called a whore, slut until I didn't know where to go and didn't kiss anyone until I was 18.
His rage simmers under the surface waiting to explode like soup being boiled -how much is real though? he tells me I imagined it and I only got hit for being a little shit? He says I'm mentally unstable.

IIAP

You are indeed making progress here, keep going.

My heart breaks for you as that child. Your parents have and continue to utterly fail you.

Your dad reminds me of a volcano ready to erupt at any time. He has projected his hate onto you and has used you as a scapegoat for all his inherent ills. And he is a hypocrite too in taking you to Sunday school when he is an atheist. I also think that was done in the main to get you out of the house so they could have time on their own.

I've just had a call from the MHT -long chat -an hour. She is going to ring me back later -is that good news or not? She says I'm now out of the area -as in GP surgery in x county and I'm living in Y county.

@Iamaperiwinkle - I am so sorry for all your have been through and continue to go through. I really do hope that you are now on a path to a better future.

Hi there! I hope it's ok to post here because I'm not directly affected by a dysfunctional family, my partner is from one and I'm supporting him through therapy and recovery. I have read some stately homes threads in order to understand what he has been through as I'm from a very happy family. So one thing I have picked up is there is often a narcissistic abuser and an enabler, a scapegoat and a golden child. His grandmother was abusive and his grandfather who died the year before he was born was apparently lovely but I suspect enabled his grandmother. However his mother married his Stepfather and they both seemed as evil as each other and would either be giving out physical punishments or screaming at each other and physically attacking each other on a daily basis. They remain married but sensibly eventually chose to live in separate houses. My partners mother and brother were continuing the same dynamic in terms of being abusive to each other as they have always lived together. My partner has recently gone no contact but the last he heard his mother had moved in with a new boyfriend who apparently ' understands her situation as he is no contact with his only child and hated his father'. My question is how common is it for there to be no enabler and both parents to be as violent as each other? The Stepfather almost strangled partners sister to death once, he had to be beaten over the head with a hokey stick to take his hands off her neck as he was determined to end her life.

Hi all. Posting here because I'm having a terrible morning. Woke up to about 40 voicemails from my sister crying down the phone to me saying "how can I be so cruel" and blaming me for everything.
My backstory, in brief for anyone interested is that since having children I have started realising how bad my childhood was, how I was actually neglected and abused but was never allowed to express my sadness or trauma because my mothers feelings always came first. I was always worried about making her sad or depressed. I was in a parent role to a single mother who used be as a sounding board for all her problems and blamed me (as I got older) when I wasn't "empathetic" enough. The abuse I suffered also led me to become detached or disengaged from myself and my body, and later I was blamed for being "too cold". I was constantly told I was loved, but nobody ever acted in a way that was in my interests and I was denied any kind of childhood. Having kids has made me realise was a tragedy that really was.
There is also this toxic dynamic whereby my mother says everything back to my sister (who lives abroad), but edited to make me sound like a horrible and cruel person and her the poor, defenseless old lady. This has gone on for years and it has destroyed my relationship with my sister, who hates me.
In the last year I have started therapy, taken up yoga and meditation in a serious way, started recognising my habits and being more conscious in my behaviour. I have also started dealing with the trauma I experienced as a child, not to "dwell on the past" like my sister accuses me of (these things happened before she was born, in the main) but because I was never allowed to process it before, I was never given space, and now I have my own family and I'm in a good place I can do that.
But part of my healing was I couldn't tolerate this negative, critical and hostile communication with my mother now. She never has anything good to say about me, actually acts like she despises me but then plays the victim ("why are you attacking me?") if I say anything. She tells me she is depressed and lonely all the time but refuses to see anyone about it, gets defensive if I suggest anything and complains to my sister that I'm "heartless" if I don't have time (I work long hours and have 2 small kids) to listen to her complaining every day. So in January/Feb (which is the first time @AttilaTheMeerkat saw my post and directed me here) I messaged both of them to say that I need their understanding, I am at capacity with the kids, my work and just trying to get on with no childcare during a pandemic and that I can't take on board their endless issues any longer. I was immediately the worst person who ever walked the face of the earth. And it has deteriorated from there.
I never wanted to cut my mother off from her grandchildren, I just wanted to try and make her understand that this isn't normal, healthy communication. Her phoning my sister complaining about me all the time isn't normal. Her telling me she "feels like she's having a heart attack" when she knows I'm hours away, can't possibly get to her, am in the middle of a meeting etc is not normal and is actually very manipulative.
My sister has said that I'm the cause of our mothers upset, I am the most heartless and rotten person she has ever come across etc etc. Apparently our mother did see a GP (I have been trying to get her to go for months and she wouldn't) and the GP said it was me who was the issue and not to contact me any more. Who could have guessed, I'm the issue! I've been the problem for 40 years! You can only imagine what tales she spun of my failures.
FYI my mother is not elderly. She likely has depression but she won't seek treatment but otherwise is in good health. I live several hours drive away and there have been successive lockdowns (I'm not in the UK) meaning I was very limited in what I could do.
Both of them say that its my therapists fault I'm behaving this way, that she must be a very bad therapist for making me "re-live the past"...Which is madness because I've never had more clarity in my life...I've never once had the chance to speak and be heard, and that's all she does.
Thanks to anyone reading, I know its a bit of a rant. I'm just so upset over it.