Are they playing some sort of weird game?

[NewYearDahlia]

I recently found out that DH has a long-standing friendship (I'm talking years) with a woman and I knew nothing about the friendship. DH tells me there's nothing to worry about.
Unfortunately I am beginning to think there's much more to it that I don't understand. Looking through the photos on my phone, I took a photo of DH on a coach we were on waiting to leave the airport the last holiday before lockdown. In the background through the opposite window I can see her sitting on the next fucking coach to ours. She's in profile, looking down at her phone, it's definitely her. At the time I took the photo, DH was also on his phone - it's in his hand. It looks like he was having a messenger conversation but the image is blurry.

I know some people are going to think I'm trolling but I can assure you this situation I'm in is horribly true - so much that it's made me feel very anxious because I don't know what's going on. I'm not going to ask him about this photo - we've had the chat about the friendship and he's adamant nothing is going on.

I know at one point she had access to the photos on his old phone because he gave it to her and it was updating despite him saying he thought he'd reset it. I'm now wondering if they shared location via this phone.

I didn't see her on the plane nor in the airport, nor during the holiday.
Just wondering if anyone knows if this is a thing - like, do two people who maybe 'like' one another do 'naughty' little things - like booking the same holidays - as fucked up as it sounds - for the kick of it?

I recently found out that DH has a long-standing friendship (I'm talking years) with a woman and I knew nothing about the friendship.

How did you find this out recently?

What is the nature and frequency of their friendship?

Does it predate you?

Was it kept quiet?

Why do you suspect it is more than a friendship?

Op I'm sorry I'm not up to date fully with your thread

Is there a chance your dh is stalking her?

I know at one point she had access to the photos on his old phone because he gave it to her and it was updating despite him saying he thought he'd reset it. I'm now wondering if they shared location via this phone.

This is odd. Who would give an old phone to a random person at a hobby?

Also his reaction when you asked him about the “friendship” - declaring he would stop his hobby so that he didn’t see her .... a bit extreme if you haven’t suggested that?

Don’t just think about when he goes out (late from work / shops etc) - think about when you go out or are engaged in something - this is also time that he has to misbehave. You have no idea what he’s doing whilst YOU were at your gym class / shopping etc

In our town a guy went on his honeymoon to quite an exotic location with his long time partner( now wife) Unknown to her his lover also went there with his knowledge and the wife ended up catching the two them together. It was the talk of the town as they were split up when they got back and their marriage was annulled. So it is quite possible he did plan to go there and got his kicks from knowing she was close by and treading on such dangerous ground.

@toocold54

My first reaction was that you are crazy! But reading more of your posts this has happened to me a couple of times. I have a close male friend who knows I am going somewhere and then happens to go close to the same place at the same time - but he's never messaged me to ask to meet up or anything so I can only assume it's more coincidence/thinks it's a good idea.

Have you ever communicated with him over WhatsApp? Do you have location-sharing activated? Has he ever sent you media such as a video over WhatsApp?

If the photos were updating then his Apple ID remained logged-in on a phone he had given away to another person ( a HUGE no-no - never hand over possession of a device in this way, but I digress ).
If the Apple ID was active on the phone then it is effectively like having a window into the Apple ID owner's life. Of significance here is that the Apple ID owner's location can be tracked via their own device, although there are many, many other repercussions which are rather too terrifying to list here (think: all those passwords many of us store on our mobile devices, for instance).
What a mess.

My take is this:

He’s in a largely emotional affair and is infatuated. She knows he has a partner but is also heavily invested.

She was going away with the girls and he joked about the ‘can you imagine if I turned up with OP’. She dared him. And he did.

If this is the reality (and you need to find out) it shows what he’s willing to do to prove his worth to her and the scale of their relationship.

Could she be a colleague?

Do you have his passcodes?

Look for archived WhatsApp threads.

Look at SMS threads in all names.

If you are sure there’s some foul play, then you have to confront him and be prepared to threaten to tell his family what he’s been doing. And what you’ve found.

How are things, Dahlia?

He had such an extreme reaction to your reasonable questions. Your discovery of his 10 year secret friendship/relationship is causing him emotional conflict. If you hadn’t by chance noticed the message notifications, you’d still be in the dark, which is where he wanted you to stay.

You speak of previous ‘massive red flags.’ Can you elaborate?

Thanks for checking in on me MsDogLady. I'm grateful that Mumsnet has been a coping mechanism for me.

I think you're right about him wanting me to be kept in the dark.

A few red flags. Three very odd events I can remember clearly from several years ago, and a few little things over the years, like finding objects in the car/house, which could have rational explanations.

The major one that is bothering me ATM is actually from about 8 years ago when one of my neighbours who I rarely saw made a point of coming over to me when I was parking my car after finishing work. She asked me if my sister had gotten hold of me. I told her I didn't have a sister. She told me that her and her husband had seen a woman knocking on our door and the woman seemed quite agitated.

It sounds stupid to me now but at the time I just assumed it had been a cold-caller and that my neighbour had misinterpreted. I feel stupidly naive as I think now my neighbour was trying to tell me something without telling me directly.

That incident is v suspect - did you mention it to your DH at the time?

Other incidents or feelings might now rise back up from your memories at random times. Keep a log - and think about what was happening before and after and you might spot a pattern.

How has lockdown changed both of your routines?

That sounds extremely suspicious Dahlia. What sort of things did you find in the car and house? When I suspected my (now ex) man was seeing another woman (turned out my suspicions were correct) I left a number of clues for her to find in his flat in an attempt to flush the pair of them out. These things had to be enough for her to spot but subtle enough for him not to notice or to explain away when she questioned him.

@Sssloou

That incident is v suspect - did you mention it to your DH at the time?

Other incidents or feelings might now rise back up from your memories at random times. Keep a log - and think about what was happening before and after and you might spot a pattern.

How has lockdown changed both of your routines?

I can't remember if I mentioned it to him but I would guess I must have done. Thank you for the idea about spotting a pattern.

Lockdown has certainly changed our routines like most people, we spend much more time together and both WFH. Why did you ask?

This initially reminded me of this BBC article about a lady who met her boss on holiday, when she was supposed to be off sick!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18459069

Technically its quite possible to go to the same place as a friend or even someone who is just an acquaintance and it just be a coincidence that is more likely than you would expect. However I have to say with all the other info regarding his behavior it is odd and his reactions to your questions even odder!

This all seems very odd OP.

Have you been able to search her posts on Facebook, to see if she had a friend getting married / was on a hen do around that time.

It is all pointing to the direction of something suspicious. The becoming aggressive when bringing it up is a massive red flag too.

It it a type of hobby where they now get to 'meet up' online at all? If so, are you ever in the room at the same time?

If this secret friendship / emotional affair / sexual affair - has indeed been going on undetected for 10 years then it’s in a routine right under your nose - ie at his hobby, whilst you are at club/work/social, whilst he is on the way to work etc However lockdown would have shifted this so maybe it’s more online rather than meeting up and that’s why you spotted the increased number of texts?

What legal/financial/housing things would you have to do to remove yourself from this RS? I am not saying LTB - just do some research so that you know your options.

I think that you are correct that obsessing on trying to find clues around the holiday thing is drawing you in too close - he will sense your suspicion. Pan right back to see the big picture and he will feel comfortable and trip up in time.

How is your RS generally and how has it changed in lockdown? I think many people are seeing / feeling that when life was busy we didn’t notice the emotional gaps in RS.

Or maybe it was the 'friend' at the door 8 years back when she found out about you. But he then told her a bunch of lies about you (eg: 'we are only together for the kids') and so she has just hung around.

Perhaps she has tried to leave him a few times and he wasn't having it. Like she went away for that holiday and he followed to make sure she wasnt seeing other men.

I reckon @Longsight2019 has hit the nail on the head

I agree DaphneBridgerton. Infatuation. That was my take on it all along, except I was struggling to understand the weirdness of the situation.
Longsight2019's theory now makes it easier to understand.
I have gone from thinking of myself an equal, loving and supportive partner to, in the blink of an eye, thinking that they must have viewed me as some sort of annoying little side character as a hindrance to their little games. I feel both wretched and enraged simultaneously.
I am not sure why he doesn't just admit it.

You don’t need to wait for him to admit to anything for you to make decisions on your own life. That’s giving him even more power.

Why won’t he admit it?

Maybe he is protecting her marriage?

Maybe he wants his to have his cake and eat it?

Maybe he doesn’t want his finances disrupted or his reputation with friends and family sullied?

Loads of reasons why he won’t admit it NONE of them are relevant to you.

What do you feel deep down in your gut?

What do you want to do with your life now?

What were the other odd things / incidents that happened that unnerved you?

Sssloou is right, wanting him to admit it is like waiting for permission to leave him, I can completely understand what you mean about feeling like an annoying little side character in their thing, but maybe for him that gave it more steam the risk and the game.

His ego probably inflated too thinking that two women would want him. To leave him would puncture that ego, give you back the power and possibly take the spark out of their thing too.

For many years your H has blocked transparency regarding his friendship with this woman. His secrecy and omissions tell you that this is not a safe friendship, as does her presence at your holiday resort.

He has undoubtedly considered himself quite clever to have juggled his double life for years without your suspecting anything. He must be bricking it that your eyes are opening. Stress was certainly leaking from him during and after your recent questioning.

What were the items that appeared in the house and car? If she left these articles there, or was the agitated woman at the door, this suggests more than infatuation.

Earlier you wrote that you’ve hesitated to show him the photo for fear that he would gaslight you. Does he have form for gaslighting?

I don't wish to alarm you op, but I,ve known situations such as this where long standing secrets have been uncovered. It was basically the tip of the iceburg, many different women friends that were innapropriate and some knowing about others when they had been discarded.
The wife was completely in the dark for many years, until as you her eyes were opened and many things in her memory and sub concious came back.
It was like a jigsaw puzzle filling in, if someone can lie so convincingly for so long there can be many other scenarios that come to light, including present new involements.
You will now notice things and he will not like that, he could be juggling plates.
Not nice to see when that comes crashing down and they loose total control.
These controlling liars can be dangerous people when they are uncovered.
I hope this isn't as bad as that but be careful with him, as I say they can turn into complete strangers and can be easily angered.

I also think your comment of "odd fucking events" very telling.

You may well start seeing more of these.
I hope not.

I think you might very well be right @Onthedunes.
I think there may be another one that he's been stringing along. I think he may have sent her a Valentine's card - no evidence, just guessing - because he received a text from her yesterday and he hadn't heard from her in about four weeks. AFAIK she is just an ex colleague.
I had an odd Valentine's Day. It was like he had blanked it out completely, yet he'd referred to it the day before because one of his mates had gone to buy some flowers and he mentioned that they would be expensive. Yet on the day itself for me: no card, no present, didn't mention that it was Valentine's Day at all.
When I expressed my concern he said he loved me but gave no reason why he didn't bother recognising Valentine's Day.
I will take your advice and keep my counsel from now on.

This is just an observation and I don’t know if your husband is up to no good or not, but I have just clicked on Op’s posts only and without everyone else’s contributions the situation reads quite differently to me .