Think I may need to choose between ds and dh....

[Dickorydockwhatthe]

I've put many threads on mumsnet about their relationship. Dh and massively ds clash and this has worsened as ds has got older. It has led to some awful rows with me in the middle and even telling dh he's pushing his son away and I may have to choose. Dh is very authoritarian as a parent and doesn't know when to choose his battles which has resulted in ds 16 rebellion, lashing out, having no respect for dh and now wanting to go into Foster care. I've spoken to dh many a times and he's tried but it goes back to how it was. Now ds is 16 and rebelling his authoritarian approach is having no effect because he's so accustomed to dh shouting or getting annoyed nothing works. I feel like I've failed ds massively as he's so anti dh right now and I think I've let him down😔. Dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. But for some reason he thinks kids should do as they are told and be respectful and ds isn't like that. Ds 2 on the hand is completely different. School are now involved and we are planning to have a family conference for meditation. Ds has expressed he wants to leave. I've looked into leaving dh not because I don't love him but because of the toxic relationship between him and ds. But coming from a broken home myself I felt we could try and work on it as we are a family and ultimately we love each other very much. But I've let ds down and now I may lose him. If I leave dh we have no where to live, I can't afford the mortgage on my own as only work part time and my pay isn't great. I'm financially dependent on dh and have no idea where I stand with raising two children alone. I just feel like this is going to break out family apart and have no idea what to do 🙁

Iminaglasscase, the pinning down thread was posted a few days ago.

Lots of people seem to confuse authoritarian and authoritative on this thread.

Authoritative is generally considered the parenting style with best outcomes. This involves a firm parent, who is happy and willing to set out boundaries and is able to enforce them, but who is also warm and approachable and willing to discuss.

Authoritarian is a parent who barks orders and does not listen. This is generally associated with less good outcomes. Children often (not always) become either rebellious or anxious and eager to please (so having one child who presents no problems under this approach is not necessarily a good sign either).

From what the OP posted a few days ago, it seems there is a long-standing history of the dh barking orders at his son, and he also seems prone to going physical- which with a 16yo is really not a good or safe idea.

@Dickorydockwhatthe - would your DH and DS, along with you, agree to family therapy?

I think that’s the only way to get to the right place here if it’s possible to do so. Your DH is getting a lot wrong (as do all parents but he’s perhaps getting more wrong than most) but it comes from a place of caring. It is better for him to be nitpicking too much than paying no attention to his child. And it does sound a bit as if you’re too easygoing but of course you may be trying to compensate for your H’s authoritarian streak. Your DS is clearly having difficulties, some of which may be in response to your H but I think taking your DS’s phone is a fair consequence for your DS smashing up his laptop.

About 4 years ago, we signed up for family therapy because we felt we were all spending too much time angry and shouting at each other. It worked wonders. We probably only had about 6 or 8 sessions but it made such a difference. We paid for it. We still argue and shout from time to time but it’s much less often. And I have read that if you never argue with your teen, you’re not doing it right because either they’re not pushing any boundaries (which they should) or the parents aren’t imposing any (which they should).

Your DS really needs to experience your H listening to him.

And difficult as it is, perhaps the hardest part of parenting and I’m not good at it, is balancing discipline with allowing your child to make mistakes including ones that may have serious consequences. After all, the most effective lessons tend to be the most painful ones.

It sounds like your husband isn't taking any responsibility for this. I find the authoritarian approach so ignorant and basic. If it was me and I was financially stable enough to carry on independently then yes I would leave him.

Your DS is 16 - he already gone through his adolescent with a father who doesn't support him and thinks shouting is the way forward.

I know of too many authoritarian dads who then bring up a son who ends up being just like them and so the cycle goes on....

Hurry and leave before it's too late.

Family therapy is an option I guess but your husband doesn't seem like the sort of man who would take it seriously and do the homework.

Nobody here can advise because no one can see the true dynamic. Split in the short term and family counselling seems the best way forward.

I’m really really worried for your other son living in the middle of this.

I think your son and husband need to be separated. Regardless of opinions whether your husband is abusive or not.

The title of your post and dicussions of your son's escalating defiant behaviour, suggests you know exactly what the score is.
You would have posted stating 'problems with teenage son' but you included your husband, you know the problem lies with him, he has created these problems in your son.

You are asking posters to help excuse your behaviour of burying your head in the sand.
Your husband has bullied you into accepting his poor behaviour, (and it is poor) and he has bullied your son.
I am pleased your son has still got some fight left in him but it puts him in a very dangerous possition, where violence could easily get out of hand, and serious injuries could occur.

I think you should take your son's request about leaving very seriously, his frustation from all the years of abuse and your innability to defend him is reaching a head.

Please put your son first and protect him, if you can not accept that you have put you husband before your own son at least help him to escape this situation.

Fot a child to live a life with someone he is scared of is heartbreaking.
And of course your other child is also scared.

Oh what a surprise @Dickorydockwhatthe.
You are the victim.

If we knew all what you didn’t post we’d all be agreeing that your son is just awful all on his own and see what a brilliant man your husband is.

At what point will it penetrate your self pity that trauma, especially for someone with a processing disorder, causes significant behavioural and mental health changes?

Your son’s behaviour may have gotten worse recently and not be proportionate to your saintly husband’s usual bullying but it will have its roots in years of that bullying.

Trauma in childhood has been linked to personality disorders in later life.
In adolescents when it manifests it is usually put down to the child being a brat,manipulative, dramatic, troublemaker, on drugs, needs a good clip round the ear to show who’s boss etc.

It can take years as an adult to get a diagnosis and many people self-medicate with destructive behaviours like alcohol and drugs until they are diagnosed.

Their experience of love and support when their behaviour is at its worst combined with the impact of feeling that they were abandoned when they should have been protected means intimate personal relationships can be toxic repeats of the only relationship models they knew as a child.

You and the people supporting you on here have no idea or just don’t care about the deep harm reductive, rigid parenting and denial does. I do. I see it every day.

But you don’t want to hear that.

You want people to excuse you.

You are only just beginning to see the life long legacy for BOTH your sons of what you have excused.

If my son smashed up laptop because he was angry with his dad. And told lies about his dad hitting him then I would take his phone away too. At 16 he should know right from wrong. I do feel sorry for your dh, it must be a hard life for him.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/causes-of-bpd/

@mummytolittledragons

If my son smashed up laptop because he was angry with his dad. And told lies about his dad hitting him then I would take his phone away too. At 16 he should know right from wrong. I do feel sorry for your dh, it must be a hard life for him.

You’re right, at 16 the son should know right from wrong.

Guess who didn’t model that kind of behaviour for him.

Guess who modelled that if you scream and shout and throw your weight around you can intimidate people in to doing what you want.

The only thing ‘hard’ about the husband’s life is he has lost control of his main whipping boy and seeing the consequences of his actions.

The excusing of abusive men never stops on this site.

@mummytolittledragons WTAF? Are you even a mother?

Your situation has its roots in how your DH has always chosen to parent - in an authoritarian style, which is a poor way of parenting and nothing to do with authoritative parenting, which is the optimum.

Because your DH couldn't let small things go and pick his battles when your DS1 was young, your DS now takes anything he says as an imminent attack. Your DH has absolutely brought this on himself.

Your DS2 being quiet and compliant is not a good thing here - it's likely this comes from having watched his father's behaviour and now he has chosen retreat and non-confrontation as a strategy. This doesn't mean he is happy and emotionally healthy.

Your DS1 is behaving badly, but there are reasons for that. And things are now so bad that only family therapy is going to help - you need to pursue that even if you do decide to leave, because there is an immense amount of damage to be undone here.

I think that it's been hard on this post because the OP didn't mention any extreme behaviours, and only those who've dug through history are able to see.

I had thought, based on what was originally shared, that the DS sounded like his behaviour was driving a lot of the problem. Clearly, on reading more, OP's DH is an arse and needs to go.

OP it also begs the question of why you didn't include all his awful behaviour in your posts here, and made it sound like a hard choice when it really shouldn't be?

Peak Mumsnet. A man got drunk four years ago and went to a strip club and he's an abusive monster.

A man is annoyed when his son doesn't pick up after himself and he's a bully.

Your son sounds like a brat. I can't believe he would smash a laptop like that. How spoilt and disrespectful can you get?

I think you're the one to blame here though. If your husband was in the forces and you were staying home to look after the kids then why didn't you educate them to respect their parents and do as they're asked, help around the house?

Now you're in a situation where you are actually going to leave your husband because of this. It's insane.

Unless you have further drip feeding, I'm really struggling to see how a man raising his voice at a disrespectful teenager and being a lightweight drinker makes him a bad person.

Undoubtedly I'll be accused of minimising though.

There is some real nastiness against the OP on this thread. This is Relationships, not AIBU. I understand that some posters are frustrated but on balance do they think it's better or worse for OP and, more to the point, her son, if OP feels able to post here for advice? Some of the things being said are so nasty they will likely drive OP off the thread and that is not a better outcome for OP or her family.

[quote Bumblebee1980a]@mummytolittledragons WTAF? Are you even a mother?[/quote]
I'm a really good mum thank you .

Undoubtedly I'll be accused of minimising though

@CrotchBurn I’ll go one better. I’ll accuse you of excusing the ongoing abuse of a vulnerable child who is now a difficult teenager because god forbid someone should hold a shit father to account.

He doesn’t just raise his voice - he screams and shouts no matter how the son behaves.
A man who loses the plot because a child with a processing disorder doesn’t obey him immediately or a because a teenager sulks isn’t a reasonable person or a good father.

You and the handmaidens on here excusing shitty fathers and putting the blame back on children who have been let down do a level of harm that cannot be excused.

Go ahead and be proud of yourself for that.

And I also don’t accept that the H is 100% responsible for the issues here. Furthermore he clearly cares about his son rather than being some deadbeat dad who pays no attention.

Like many families, OP’s family has got into a difficult tangle which almost certainly needs professional help to get out of, as well perhaps as a period of separation while everyone recalibrates.

@DuchessOfDoombar
You're not going to guilt or shame me into aligning with your agenda.

Nowhere did she say he screamed at his children for no reason. You made that up to suit you.

Many PP have already put this well but just to reiterate, if the OP's 16-year-old is acting out, crossing the line, being a brat, whatever you want to call it - this is a consequence of the parenting he has received, particularly the authoritarian style of his father. Her DH is reaping exactly what he sowed.

It doesn't remotely surprise me to learn that the DH comes from a military background. I've known too many older men like that whose ideal of family life is of them as the alpha captain barking orders at their subordinates. What they say goes, they're the head of the family, no one can answer back - no matter how small the issue.

It doesn't even have to cross the line into physical abuse, or even be a clearcut case of emotional abuse, to be an incredibly toxic environment. Kids tend to either keep their head down and count down the days to leaving home, or be defiant and constantly butt heads. The latter isn't surprising because if a child knows they'll get barked at and terrified for the smallest misdemeanour - why not just go all the way when you rebel? And if they've learned that being physically domineering and shouting gets their dad what he wants, why is it a surprise when they do that themselves, when they're big enough?

My own dad was that sort - not military background but God he acted like it. I took the quiet, head-down route for the most part. And then when I was financially independent I took immense pleasure in telling me to go fuck himself forever, and he could never control me again. We're now NC and I'm happier for it.

*telling him, obviously

I don't think we need to decide whether all the blame lies with the son or all the blame lies with the father. The point is that relations between the two have deteriorated to the point where the father is using physical force against a 16yo (always risky even if not abusive) and the 16yo is refusing to stay in the family, though there is no reason to believe he would be safe elsewhere. Agree with Dery and others that professional help is needed.

The ds needs to be listened to, he needs to agree to certain ground rules (not just be told these actually are the rules but feel he has a stake in them), the dh also needs to agree to certain rules. No physical contact other than affectionate should be the first rule.

I think that it's been hard on this post because the OP didn't mention any extreme behaviours, and only those who've dug through history are able to see.

That's because there aren't any extreme behaviours, except from the son.

There really isn't much more re the husband. There are lots of posts over the years about the sons behaviour, sex, porn, innapropriate images of his gf, going AWOL, drink, smoking, sulking, refusing to do anything round the house, refusing to do schoolwork, destiny, him squaring up to his dad etc.

There is a post from 4 years ago, where OP is understandably grumpy about her husband's drunken behaviour and him visiting a strip cub.

The only mentions of things 'getting physical' are (1) a mention of mum holding son by the arm at one stage (from memory to stop him jumping out of the window or something), which resulted in the son complaining to his friends that he'd been hit (2) dad pining the son in similar circumstances - the son tried to jump out of the bedroom window (3) mum posting that she was worried her angry son was going to hurt her husband or himself.

Dad isn't going to win any parent of the year awards for being shouty when his son is being lazy and rude around the house, but I've seen no evidence that he's been bullying the family for years.

Incidentally, the other son (who gets on well enough with his dad that mum thinks he might move with him if dad moves out) is having a difficult time with his MH to and lockdown, and threatened to kill himself 3 months ago. There have also been a lot of references in the past to the older son being nasty/calling the younger son names, though unsure if that goes beyond what is normal for teenage brothers. Given this done good relationship with his father and emotional fragility, I'd worry about him if the family split because of the older brother. I think it might also dive a huge wedge between them - older son acts like a brat and mum leaves their father to sit him, even though this will make the other son, who doesn't behave like this, and has been recently suicidal, suffer and choose between his parents. It's a horrendous idea.

This family needs some urgent counselling to get to the bottom of what's going on.

[quote CrotchBurn]@DuchessOfDoombar
You're not going to guilt or shame me into aligning with your agenda.

Nowhere did she say he screamed at his children for no reason. You made that up to suit you.[/quote]
@CrotchBurn I don’t have an agenda.

I do suggest you read the OPs posts.

Have a nice day.