Think I may need to choose between ds and dh....

[Dickorydockwhatthe]

I've put many threads on mumsnet about their relationship. Dh and massively ds clash and this has worsened as ds has got older. It has led to some awful rows with me in the middle and even telling dh he's pushing his son away and I may have to choose. Dh is very authoritarian as a parent and doesn't know when to choose his battles which has resulted in ds 16 rebellion, lashing out, having no respect for dh and now wanting to go into Foster care. I've spoken to dh many a times and he's tried but it goes back to how it was. Now ds is 16 and rebelling his authoritarian approach is having no effect because he's so accustomed to dh shouting or getting annoyed nothing works. I feel like I've failed ds massively as he's so anti dh right now and I think I've let him down😔. Dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. But for some reason he thinks kids should do as they are told and be respectful and ds isn't like that. Ds 2 on the hand is completely different. School are now involved and we are planning to have a family conference for meditation. Ds has expressed he wants to leave. I've looked into leaving dh not because I don't love him but because of the toxic relationship between him and ds. But coming from a broken home myself I felt we could try and work on it as we are a family and ultimately we love each other very much. But I've let ds down and now I may lose him. If I leave dh we have no where to live, I can't afford the mortgage on my own as only work part time and my pay isn't great. I'm financially dependent on dh and have no idea where I stand with raising two children alone. I just feel like this is going to break out family apart and have no idea what to do 🙁

You need to give your son a safe space. Can you imagine if someone was on your back over every move? How would that feel? Now without his phone he can't even get any support.
Take your kids to your mums or ask DH to move out to clear the air.
You need to rebuild trust from all sides.
But in the mean time give your son a safe sanctuary and explain why and that he has to do school work to build trust.
But your husband needs to climb down off his high horse and stop being so righteous or you will lose your sons
If you can't imagine your husband working together on this then he has to go.

Also, can you blame your son for wanting to be out of the house and with his friends? I bet they are nice to him. Imagine that

I love my dh very much and would be miserable without him however I love my kids more and if my DH ever picked my children the way your DH does I would leave him. Your children only have one Mum. How awful it must be for your eldest son seeing his Dad punish him for no good reason and his Mum not protect him. You will lose your son and never win him back if you don't stand up to the bully you married and stop him bullying and emotionally abusing your son. Your second son is also afraid of his own father. I remember your other threads well. You were advised by many to leave DH to protect your children but here you are again asking for advise you won't take. If you left you could claim benefits to top up your earnings. Your eldest son must be desparate to actually ask to be put in care. He realises you won't protect him and he knows he must escape the emotional abuse. I am a foster carer and I see the damage first hand that children have had to deal with living with emotional abuse. It never leaves them. They carry it with them their whole lives through. I hear some of these children who say things like 'Dad hates me but I don't know why' and 'Mum sees him do it but doesn't love me enough to stop him'. I don't mean to be hard on you but you are failing your children. Before long they will be grown and gone and bitter you let their Dad bully them. Do you think they will want to bring their children to see you and their Dad? You might be left alone with the bully and when there is no one else to emotionally abuse he might well start on you.

Your son's EHCP application should NOT have stopped due to Covid, and if your council are giving that as an excuse they are bullshitting you. The legal timescales have not been relaxed, and the experts who need to do assessments should be able to do them online if necessary.

I suggest you email the council immediately to point out that the statutory time limits have not been relaxed and ask them to confirm that they will take whatever the next step is within the next week or so and will keep to tight time limits thereafter. If necessary, phone SOS SEN or IPSEA for further advice.

Whose name is the house in? Bear in mind that if you split up your husband will still have financial responsibility for his children, and that the norm is that they should not have to leave the family home: their needs have to be prioritised.

Frightening the number of posters who are blaming the ds.

Just to be clear, the ds is entirely blameless. For nine years he has been subject to a father who hasn't a clue how to parent - starting with not being able to handle a little boy, who barely knew him, not talking to him. So very very sad for that boy.

I was in this same position and dh left in november last year. My house is now calm. Yes, my asd ds13 is lippy but I can ignore it, and respond to anxiety unlike my dh. And things don't escalate. We had, a horrible with aggression time last year. Sometimes you have to "choose" between them if there is a safeguarding issue and your dh won't seek help!

@Arobase I agree with you. My ds got his ehcp during lockdown last year. They did some of the assessments over zoom. There is no excuse for delays...

OP what will it take for you to stand up for your son?

You seem hell bent on defending the abusive lout you're married to.

You talk about breaking up your family. Your family has been broken for years.

What really is stopping you from ending this marriage?

have you spoke to ds -alone-? does he think you are same as dh? do you/him think when you leave, there isnt gony be a reinstate alpha-event.
i agree,children should know boundaries,rules,consequences cos-thats real life.yelling,gorilla,bullying and tantrums need adressed so you all prob need to look in before you look out.

is it rebellion?or disrespect with mummy softening the reaction.
are you enabling a bully/tormentor /abuser.
is relationship you\ds otherwise amazing. youre taking no sides in your post so allowing everything

I've read the historical stuff (bored with non sleeping toddler) and whilst it does sound as though the ops husband has had some historical issues with drink and an incident of going to a strip club, these are 4+ years old. We have no information to presume this is a live issue.

The son has clearly been exhibiting some very concerning behaviour, and whilst his dad is apparently shouty over his behaviour, he has also been sensible and rational in previous posts, such as dropping the son of at a friend's house when very upset, so he could cool down, talking to the son about his porn use and pictures of his girlfriend on his phone. There is one mention recently of the father pinning/restraining him which I am v concerned at, and I think this needs getting to the bottom of.

The father has been called a bully and a lout and abusive - an extrapolation of him being called authoritative and that he shouts sometimes (though if the pinning did happen I am more concerned). But the op appears to have no parenting strategies for dealing with her son's behaviour other than being totally permissive. Their parenting strategies are so very different.

I'm not saying that the dad is acting fab here, but they perhaps both parents need a parenting course in parenting teenagers before this tears the whole family apart.

But I don't think that is fair to use two threads from 4 years ago to condemn the husband whilst ignoring the dozen plus which detail her sons behaviour over this whole period.

I can't see how people are so against your dh with the little you have wrote on this post
Lots confused as think it was dh that smashed the laptop and not ds,
Without examples of how he has reacted hard to say you gave a couple of examples where he told him off but not how often this happens and tbf i expect my kids to do as I ask as well and yes my 15 year 11 child , I do keep an eye on his homework etc , its not just the schools issue to deal with its mine.
Agree with pick your battles but you also can't ignore bad behaviour all the time either, so it is a balancing act.
Seems like you need outside help either way , and your son told his friends your dh hit him but he hadn't , quite a serious allegation to make as well and one that could if got your dh in trouble
But without knowing all details its hard to judge if your dh is a total bully but haven't seen other threads

I can't find any old posts re: dh and ds so can't look at to see examples where all are saying how OP has been advised to leave and listing all the dh bad behaviour

@OverTheRubicon

People are very against your DH here, but the actual facts you've given us so far are that your DH is nitpicking and shouts (not great), confiscated a phone from a child who had just smashed the laptop that presumably you boihjt him.

Your DS smashed his own laptop, won't follow covid rules enough to live with his.grandparents, is squaring up to DH and you fear violence, is.demanding to go into foster care after hearing from his (either clueless or.dangerous) friends that it will be cushier...

Like others say, it sounds like your.DH could do with a parenting course but unless you share more specifics or backstory it sounds like maybe you're a little blind to.DS's role here.

Agreed. TF am I reading on here?!? The 'D'S sounds like a badly behaved brat and whose behaviour has been allowed to escalate, and his father who is trying to raise him right is the one in the wrong for simply parenting his son. Sometimes this forum is absolutely unbelievable. I'd back your DH up and tell DS if he wants to go into care, go. Tell him he'll learn how good he had it at home. Perhaps if you backed your DH up (I get the feeling you're like a 'Disney mum' who lets your DS get away with everything), stood as a united team, your DS would back down and wouldn't think he can over-rule you both. It sounds like your DS is a bully, and these type of kids can tear families apart.

@Robbybobtail

It just sounds as though your son wants everything his own way and doesn't like being told her has to respect his parents / school work / possesions / home.

Sadly, its all a bit namby pamby now but my best advise would be to stand by your husband and take a united front

Yes I agree. You sound a bit wet tbh OP. You’re dh doesn’t sound abusive at all from your posts (unless I’m missing something from a previous post) do you take a firm stance with ds? Maybe you should?

Oh, and I’ve been there, got the T-shirt. They usually come out of it by about 18-19!

Yes, the son sounds very manipulative and knows what he is doing. And the OP does sound wet like she will let DS get away with anything. The DS sounds like a violent bully who is holding the family hostage and will split the family apart, making the younger DS suffer. I'd want the older DS out of the house to protect the younger DS.

It's impossible to tell really, from what you have posted such as the laptop it seems like the action (taking his phone) was reasonable. When you say he can't 'pick his battles', do you ever pick any battles at all? Does DS 'punish' your DH because he was away so much when he was little? Theres a lot to unpick from what you have posted, and regardless of whatever your son should be able to have a safe home without constant conflict, but it seems there are several elements at play, and only you really know.

I’m sorry you’re caught in the midst of this OP. It’s not the life you chose either.

Therapy for you if you can’t get group therapy? The problem with extreme behaviour is it can polarise so your husband is authoritative and maybe you try to make up for it being softer or not getting involved and he then gets more authoritative. Your sons behaviour sounds like it’s swinging in extremes of nice and then very difficult which feels manipulative and that you can’t trust him as you’re not sure what you’re going to get.

I am much more on your sons side. It’s so horrible and soul destroying to be picked at especially in your own home and I doubt he has anywhere to go at the moment. If he grumbles about pudding (yes it’s irritating mr ungrateful toe rag) an eye roll and comment about Gorden Ramsey being in would diffuse that. Drop the rope.
Your husband needs to work out if he wants sons that trust and interact and talk to him or those that do what he says with their eyes down for 18m and then disappear.

You need to decide if (In 4 years it will be just the two of you) do you think it will get better when they leave or do you think he’ll start on you?

At some point you are going to have to stop handwringing. Lockdown may have aserbated the situation but it didn’t come from nowhere. The house move was just another way of not addressing the real problem.

During lockdown your son has no escape from someone he clearly doesn’t like and who clearly doesn’t like him, ‘oh but he loves him’ is just a platitude you trot out to excuse your inaction.

I suspect you will find away for your son to get his phone back, so you can bribe him into not rocking the boat further.

Given your extensive posting history, be honest, are you really looking for solutions or to hear that you are the real victim here.

You have chosen to be in the middle, it wasn’t a role forced upon you. You probably aren’t going to leave and you already know your H won’t, which means if your eldest pushes it, he will be the one to go.

Your youngest might be more compliant but that doesn’t mean he isn’t affected by the front row seat he has to the terrible relationship his older brother has with his father. His compliance may be a survival technique and not a true expiry of his personality.

Could you speak to school & ask if ds could go in school for his lessons? I would think that knowing the problems ds has told them about they would take him as a vulnerable child. That would give him some space & you some time to make decisions about your family's future. You can self refer to MAST, they are a level below a social worker & work with families for many reasons including your situation, they include school, you, specialists for learning disabilities, counsellors etc & help you find a way forward.

Or that it was smashed during an argument where her husband was physically pinning his son down.

This is the same poster as that horrendous incident? And people are actually suggesting she's some poor innocent victim?

The op has been complicit in this child abuse for years.

And still all she's interested in is herself.

I truly hope these children are finally able to receive the support they will need to recover from this abuse when they are able to break free of you. Don't expect them to stay in contact with you as adults.

Op, you have had advice time and time again to protect your child. Instead you have chosen to facilitate his continued abuse and to blame him.

From previous posts, your son has a processing disorder, and has been relentlessly bullied if he doesn't carry out a command instantly, which is most likely down to his deficit in being able to process language.

He has a father who is explosive and volatile and, yes, your son's behaviour recently seems to be troubling, but I'd be willing to bet that's as a result of how he has been treated over the years. Bad parenting comes with consequences, and you are seeing those now in your son's behaviour.

Whether your husband was restraining or pinning down your son is semantics - physically restraining a 16 year old because he won't do his school work is completely unacceptable, and abusive.

Do you know what I came on here for help and advice. But I've been judged and criticised told I don't love my son or I don't care and yet you do not know me or my family at all. And in a rush to explain myself my words haven't come out right and I've gone intk defence. I've not put all the info up as I'm in a mess and non of it is black and white or as simple as people think.ds does have needs yes and I've been fighting for a EHCP because obv I don't care. This also maybe why ds and dh struggled because we didn't understand his needs at that time. I knew something wasn't right but never had the support or diagnosis. It's very easy to take a snippet of people's life and come to a conclusion. There's lots of issues and different stresses right now which hasn't helped so no wonder it's been like a pressure cooker when two people who don't get on trying to do school work and work from home. The other posts are separate issues and do we not only put the bad stuff up to have a moan. There is also good stuff which I've not put up and are reasons why i've stayed. As for dh pinning ds that was ds words. Dh said ds was about to jump out the window so restrained him. I wasn't there and I'm trying to make sense of it all. I was at work. It's more complicated and sensitive then I can explain. But ds recent behaviour isn't just down to dh. I can't change the past I can only make changes now so that's what I'm going to focus on.

So are you going to choose your husband or your children?

You expect people to cheer you on for being complicit in abuse?

Go ahead and keep making excuses for your husband and blaming your son.

It is disingenuous to claim you came here for support and received none.

You have had hours upon hours of patient advice and support from posters on mumsnet. People are now frustrated and scared at seeing how you have ignored it as the situation deteriorates.

We are humans too. Of course we are distressed by this.

Looking through your old threads, I can't see anything that suggests your husband has been abusive towards your children/ds1. I can't find anything about him pinning ds1 down either, just an old thread where you were worried about his drinking while he was out of the house.

Going on what you've said here your ds is very disruptive and his behaviour is pretty shocking, but it seems that some people have information that's not here. Can anyone link to those threads? I think itbwould be helpful to give a better picture of what's going on.