Think I may need to choose between ds and dh....

[Dickorydockwhatthe]

I've put many threads on mumsnet about their relationship. Dh and massively ds clash and this has worsened as ds has got older. It has led to some awful rows with me in the middle and even telling dh he's pushing his son away and I may have to choose. Dh is very authoritarian as a parent and doesn't know when to choose his battles which has resulted in ds 16 rebellion, lashing out, having no respect for dh and now wanting to go into Foster care. I've spoken to dh many a times and he's tried but it goes back to how it was. Now ds is 16 and rebelling his authoritarian approach is having no effect because he's so accustomed to dh shouting or getting annoyed nothing works. I feel like I've failed ds massively as he's so anti dh right now and I think I've let him down😔. Dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. But for some reason he thinks kids should do as they are told and be respectful and ds isn't like that. Ds 2 on the hand is completely different. School are now involved and we are planning to have a family conference for meditation. Ds has expressed he wants to leave. I've looked into leaving dh not because I don't love him but because of the toxic relationship between him and ds. But coming from a broken home myself I felt we could try and work on it as we are a family and ultimately we love each other very much. But I've let ds down and now I may lose him. If I leave dh we have no where to live, I can't afford the mortgage on my own as only work part time and my pay isn't great. I'm financially dependent on dh and have no idea where I stand with raising two children alone. I just feel like this is going to break out family apart and have no idea what to do 🙁

By the curious standards of Mumsnet, the DS, aged 16 is a delicate flower who due to to no fault of his own has developed some troublesome behaviours.

In 2 years time, when he's an adult man, he'll be an evil violent cunt who will have no excuse for his behaviour and will be best avoided by womankind.

In 2 years time, when he's an adult man, he'll be an evil violent cunt who will have no excuse for his behaviour and will be best avoided by womankind.

Well where do you think violent abusive cunts come from? Thin air?

We're not advising a hypothetical partner whether she should date him or LTB. We're advising a mother on parenting her son, hopefully so that he doesn't become an adult who perpetuates the cycle of abuse.

My ex is ex services. He expected to say jump and the kids would say how high.
It was a dictatorship. The children needed discipline and do. As they were told. There was little discussion or compromise. And he would not listen to the children reasons.

Life was very tense we were all on edge and my Ds got it the worst.

We split up 3 years ago. Ds is now NC. His choice but can give you a long list of times his dad has been disproportionate in his reaction to a situation.

[quote XelaM]@Carysmatthews for the millionth time... OP's son smashed up his own laptop.[/quote]
Apologies I missed the correction. That doesn’t alter my opinion.

@CrotchBurn I very strongly agree with you. People are dragging in all this 'sensory' etc stuff which imo is simply an excuse. The boy is playing his parents like a fiddle. He is violent and dangers, and I'd be worried about the younger son. I believe he is quieter because he is afraid of his older brother.

@CrotchBurn

Peak Mumsnet. A man got drunk four years ago and went to a strip club and he's an abusive monster.

A man is annoyed when his son doesn't pick up after himself and he's a bully.

Your son sounds like a brat. I can't believe he would smash a laptop like that. How spoilt and disrespectful can you get?

I think you're the one to blame here though. If your husband was in the forces and you were staying home to look after the kids then why didn't you educate them to respect their parents and do as they're asked, help around the house?

Now you're in a situation where you are actually going to leave your husband because of this. It's insane.

Unless you have further drip feeding, I'm really struggling to see how a man raising his voice at a disrespectful teenager and being a lightweight drinker makes him a bad person.

Undoubtedly I'll be accused of minimising though.

+1.

[quote CrotchBurn]@DuchessOfDoombar
You're not going to guilt or shame me into aligning with your agenda.

Nowhere did she say he screamed at his children for no reason. You made that up to suit you.[/quote]
Agreed. And from what I've seen, kids who are aggressive and violent like OP's son appear to be, are seldom from 'authoritarian' homes but usually from permissive homes. The son has no problems squaring up to his father, those from authoritarian homes tend to be quiet, fearful, non-aggressive. OPs son sounds like he rules the roost, and like a product of permissive parenting. Certainly not from an authorative let alone authoritarian home. People are pouncing on OP's husband being in the army as a 'gotcha' point; his father was in the army therefore that makes the father violent. It's a red herring that is clouding the real issue. Albeit a convenient prejudice. My concern wouldn't just be for the OP and her husband, but for the younger son. I think he is quieter because he is afraid of his older brother. I'd be worried about safeguarding the younger boy from his brother.

@Babyboomtastic

I think that it's been hard on this post because the OP didn't mention any extreme behaviours, and only those who've dug through history are able to see.

That's because there aren't any extreme behaviours, except from the son.

There really isn't much more re the husband. There are lots of posts over the years about the sons behaviour, sex, porn, innapropriate images of his gf, going AWOL, drink, smoking, sulking, refusing to do anything round the house, refusing to do schoolwork, destiny, him squaring up to his dad etc.

There is a post from 4 years ago, where OP is understandably grumpy about her husband's drunken behaviour and him visiting a strip cub.

The only mentions of things 'getting physical' are (1) a mention of mum holding son by the arm at one stage (from memory to stop him jumping out of the window or something), which resulted in the son complaining to his friends that he'd been hit (2) dad pining the son in similar circumstances - the son tried to jump out of the bedroom window (3) mum posting that she was worried her angry son was going to hurt her husband or himself.

Dad isn't going to win any parent of the year awards for being shouty when his son is being lazy and rude around the house, but I've seen no evidence that he's been bullying the family for years.

Incidentally, the other son (who gets on well enough with his dad that mum thinks he might move with him if dad moves out) is having a difficult time with his MH to and lockdown, and threatened to kill himself 3 months ago. There have also been a lot of references in the past to the older son being nasty/calling the younger son names, though unsure if that goes beyond what is normal for teenage brothers. Given this done good relationship with his father and emotional fragility, I'd worry about him if the family split because of the older brother. I think it might also dive a huge wedge between them - older son acts like a brat and mum leaves their father to sit him, even though this will make the other son, who doesn't behave like this, and has been recently suicidal, suffer and choose between his parents. It's a horrendous idea.

This family needs some urgent counselling to get to the bottom of what's going on.

+1000

@XelaM

So it's not OK to restrain a teenager who is about to kill himself by jumping out of a window?

Mumsnet is really bonkers.

Quite. I can't believe what I'm reading here. As a mother, if my son was about to jump through a window I would grab hold of him for dear life, whether he be 7 years old or 17 years old or even, if I had the strength - 37 years old. I thought that was a parent's instinct.

Good luck OP dealing with your son if you split up with his father. Frying pan to fire springs to mind.

@choli

Good luck OP dealing with your son if you split up with his father. Frying pan to fire springs to mind.

I'm well aware of this. Which is why I came on here for advice and suggestions not criticism. There's lots of people involved not just my eldest. And my younger son is absolutely fine he's happy, but just gets stressed with school work and puts alot of pressure on himself. He lost a whole year of year 7 practically and so when he went back into year 8 he felt overwhelmed with all the work. One call to the school who spoke to him and I've not had issues since. He hasn't been abused by his elder brother. It's just normal fighting plus they used to share a room. In fact since moving house and ds's having own space we all really got on during the first lockdown. It made a massive difference with ds and dh. It's only the last 6 months things have moved backwards although it feels alot more then that.

Whilst your DH is rightly wanting decent behaviour, does anyone spend 1-1 time with him, doing fun things and showing him some love? It sounds like he’s corrected for things he gets wrong but doesn’t sound like there’s much praise and it’s easy for kids to grow up feeling worthless when a parent constantly pulls at them.

Your DH is right that DS needs to be respectful and grow up knowing right from wrong but there is a balance. He should want to do good things because his parents demonstrate the same and because he is happy. It sounds like some of the new behaviour is rebellious, almost because it’s expected he will seen as naughty regardless - a self fulfilling prophecy really.

I think your DS needs lots of care and love. Although he thinks he’s grown up and in charge, he doesn’t realise how hard life can be if he gets on the wrong path. If you and your DH don’t steer him back onto the right path, it may be too late. A child that feels worthless will grow into an adult with mental health issues or problems with violence, as a way of coping. Your younger DS doesn’t want to see this happen to his brother either - it’s very damaging.

Whilst the focus is on your elder child, please also look at your younger one and make sure he’s not forgotten. Praise him, love him and let him know that you’re there for him too. It can be really isolating to have one sibling take up so much of their parents time that they have nothing left for you. Being a good boy, it’s easy to overlook him.

Both children are well loved, fed, clothed and provided for. I spend lots of time 1 to 1 with both children and dh has tried to spend more time with ds 1 tuning into his interests like fishing etc as they have no similar interests but dh tries to follow ds.Obviously now he is older, has a gf he wants to spend more time with them then us which is only natural. I don't think ds's behaviour is just the result of dh. It's part of being a teenager too and the fact we are in Lockdown.

@Dickorydockwhatthe

Sorry you are getting so much criticism when all you asked for was support/advice. I haven’t read any of your previous posts and I am sure there is so much more to this story than we are aware of.

That said, the amount of people on here blaming you child beggars belief. The behaviours he’s exhibiting don’t come from nowhere, he’s a product of his environment, which at best is inflexible and confrontational. Your child is a teenager with additional needs, that approach will never work. Children who aren’t suffering emotionally don’t ask to go into care, they just don’t.

Your husband is the adult and he needs to make the changes if he is to have any hope of having a relationship with his son. If your husband expects respect, he needs to model that, at the moment he’s not.

Lastly, to posters who have said that social services would not get involved or consider care, they would. I’m a CP social worker and work with families with similar issues every day. There is ALWAYS a reason why children act out like this, without exception. If things continue like this and your son really wants to go into care, he’s old enough to sign himself in and that has to be the last thing you want.

If I were you I’d back my son every single time, no questions or doubts. I’m sure thee are more nuances and I get it’s not black and white, but you can’t just sit back and do nothing. Family counselling may be a good place to start, but will only work if all are willing to make changes. I’m not convinced your DH has the capacity.

Hope things work out

There's definitely anger from ds towards dh. And I think actually dh has realised his parenting needs changing but the issue now is ds automatically goes into defence mode when ever dh asks im to do anything. Their relationship needs alot of work to repair the past. Ds seems to have stopped asking to go into care now he has his phone back!! At the moment dh is enforcing alot of the rules because he is home and I'm at work. So obviously ds sees it as pressure coming from ds.

Op can you access family counselling? I think this would be worth pursuing. The issue sounds complex. I know with my eldest DS8 he's had some genuine issues with his dad's behaviour, but now he has a very defensive stance with him and things I could say or ask him to do, if his father dies the same he gets defensive and angry. In our case their are very genuine reasons behind it, maybe too in your case. Once they're on edge feeling defensive to even small completely reasonable requests it can be a really hard pattern to break on both sides. I really think seeing a good family counsellor could help.

Thank you here, and yes I think this is what's ultimately happening. I was a mess yesterday so brain wasn't thinking. But now I'm reflecting on things I don't believe what dh asks are always unreasonable, sometimes he nags which ds sees as pressure I guess but ds very much goes into defence mode and gets angry, gives attitude, slams doors etc so the dh reacts with too. I'm not saying this isn't dh fault but just that we are stuck in a negative cycle. We are going for family mediation, I maybe able to access counselling if needed depending how mediation goes even if its just for ds to have someone to talk to.

@Yellowswan I too, have worked in social services, and it's simply not true to say there is "always" a reason. That is not true. In many cases, yes, but sometimes despite parents best efforts, all their love, all their time, all their family togetherness; sometimes kids fall in with the wrong group (which sounds like the case with OP's son) and go off the rail. I've seen this where one child was deemed a 'bad egg' by some of the family, where the other brothers and sisters were completely fine, well-adjusted, happy and law-abiding, despite having the same parents. It is the earliest lessons we were taught; NEVER believe that a problem child is that way because has problem parents. It is the first thing we are taught. Some kids are just bad kids, often there is no poor parenting there as a reason. How many times on here do we read of people having arsehole/selfish/abusive siblings yet the poster and their other siblings are ok? People are people, this is the same with kids. OP's son sounds like trouble and it doesn't sound to me (as a trained and skilled former worker in ss) like the father is the problem, but he does sound like a convenient and neat scapegoat.

Oh, and yes, I have had kids ask me to take them into care before (to 'teach their parents a lesson' or to make their parents back down, to shame their parents etc), never truly meaning to go through with it. Some had a warped idea of what it would be (Home and Away). Grasses always greener and all that. You are naive of how children think and operate, and I've seen almost all the tricks in the book kids (and parents) pull, if you think they don't say that unless they mean it. I'm surprised at how naive people are on here. Kids can be more conniving, scheming and manipulative than some on here think.

@Cokie3

Not surprising you’re a ‘former’ SS worker if that’s you’re attitude towards children and young people. ‘Some kids are just bad kids’ really?? That’s certainly not how we practice now.

We know there are issues with parenting here, the OP’s post title is about choosing between her child and husband. He is not giving his ‘best efforts’, that’s really clear.

I don’t know any child from a safe and loving family that would ask to go into care.

[quote Yellowswan]@Cokie3

Not surprising you’re a ‘former’ SS worker if that’s you’re attitude towards children and young people. ‘Some kids are just bad kids’ really?? That’s certainly not how we practice now.

We know there are issues with parenting here, the OP’s post title is about choosing between her child and husband. He is not giving his ‘best efforts’, that’s really clear.

I don’t know any child from a safe and loving family that would ask to go into care.[/quote]
I am 'former' due to change of career, due to husband's relocating to another part of the country. Nothing more.

As I said, you are extremely naive, and I query whether you have ever worked in SS as that is still how they work now, and did as recently as a few years ago. You don't seem too familiar with SS practice, training, or with children in general.

And you don't seem to have any experience with a child, if you haven't heard at least one child attempt to play their parents by asking to go into care, in your career. I question whether you have any experience with children at all.

The reason ds has come with going to care is because some of the children he has been involved with are in care!! Some seem to even have their own places at 17 somehow, their own money and paint a picture of doing what they want. When I was 13 I revelled, started smoking because I thought it was cool, skipped school, shop lifted because my friends got away with it and so on. The difference was my mum as a single parent was able to reign me in because I was only 13 and I was actually scared of her when she lost her temper so when I was grounded I was grounded. I didn't bloody climb out of windows or smash things up. I can't believe everyone has perfect, happy teens.

@Cokie3

I really don’t want to get any further into this debate on here, it’s not what the post is about.

We can agree to differ!!

Best of luck OP, I really think family therapy is your best shout x

@Dickorydockwhatthe

The reason ds has come with going to care is because some of the children he has been involved with are in care!! Some seem to even have their own places at 17 somehow, their own money and paint a picture of doing what they want. When I was 13 I revelled, started smoking because I thought it was cool, skipped school, shop lifted because my friends got away with it and so on. The difference was my mum as a single parent was able to reign me in because I was only 13 and I was actually scared of her when she lost her temper so when I was grounded I was grounded. I didn't bloody climb out of windows or smash things up. I can't believe everyone has perfect, happy teens.

Yes, there is definitely a my friends are in foster care and they're pretty cool' attitude about it. Those who have no experience in SS won't understand this, but I've seen it all. Some expect it to be like Home and Away, other simply want to spitefully make their parents 'sorry' for disciplining them. It amazes me that people truly think kids are all angels and if not, it's the parents fault, when just as often it is not. It is just the kid themselves. I think some people on here have never come across a child in their entire life so have no idea what children can be like, they wouldn't last a week working with SS, the kids would run circles around them and have them fired before the week was up. Kids can be very manipulative, some on here have truly no idea. Some kids are just terrors (some are just born evil like Venables and Thompson) and there is only so much the system as we as social workers and liaison officers can do. It does not surprise me one iota that is some of his group he has fallen in with are in care. I could spot that a mile away.

@Cokie3 Your views on children are repulsive. Why are you suggesting that people on a PARENTING forum, have never come across children? I thought 'kids were born evil' was kept for hyperbolic true crime books.

Where I live 16 year olds are known as young adults, not children. some don't ask like it though.