Think I may need to choose between ds and dh....

[Dickorydockwhatthe]

I've put many threads on mumsnet about their relationship. Dh and massively ds clash and this has worsened as ds has got older. It has led to some awful rows with me in the middle and even telling dh he's pushing his son away and I may have to choose. Dh is very authoritarian as a parent and doesn't know when to choose his battles which has resulted in ds 16 rebellion, lashing out, having no respect for dh and now wanting to go into Foster care. I've spoken to dh many a times and he's tried but it goes back to how it was. Now ds is 16 and rebelling his authoritarian approach is having no effect because he's so accustomed to dh shouting or getting annoyed nothing works. I feel like I've failed ds massively as he's so anti dh right now and I think I've let him down😔. Dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. But for some reason he thinks kids should do as they are told and be respectful and ds isn't like that. Ds 2 on the hand is completely different. School are now involved and we are planning to have a family conference for meditation. Ds has expressed he wants to leave. I've looked into leaving dh not because I don't love him but because of the toxic relationship between him and ds. But coming from a broken home myself I felt we could try and work on it as we are a family and ultimately we love each other very much. But I've let ds down and now I may lose him. If I leave dh we have no where to live, I can't afford the mortgage on my own as only work part time and my pay isn't great. I'm financially dependent on dh and have no idea where I stand with raising two children alone. I just feel like this is going to break out family apart and have no idea what to do 🙁

It sounds like DH can't cope with not being in charge & having someone challenge him.

He need to pick his battles. Let things go sometimes.

Do they do anything nice together, or is it too late for that? Would DS spend time with you on his own?

I agree with others suggesting family counselling. DH & DS are probably too similar in their personalities.

They are both at fault to some extent.

DH should pick his battles not be so critical and picky over minor problems
DS should not go awol or smash things up.

At a guess I think its the hyper critical DH causing the DS to rebel. If you fix DH then DS might fall into line a bit.

Can you reframe the issue with your husband? In the military, there are three key types of leadership: direct, operational and strategic. As parents, we face the difficult task of integrating all three. We have to understand that there can be mission failures without disregarding operations altogether, even if it sets them back, and most often missions are not critical to our overall strategy. We build success through non linear approaches. We understand there will be wins, losses and plateaus. We build relationships with the everyone, and we succeed slowly - often led by diplomatic overtures, with support provided by subtle intervention and on occasion the more overt.

You share a strategic view of what you want for, and with, your son. He is old enough to be part of the picture. You want him to be happy, successful, kind. How do you achieve that? Long run political choices, avoiding entering into costly battles of attrition, and investing in institutions that facilitate his success.

If your husband wants to parent like a military man as that is so central to his identity, he should do so in a successful manner. We aren’t fighting in trenches anymore, so no wonder he’s losing on all fronts. If he can’t act pragmatically and turn toward a superior approach, then you and your son will cut your losses - faced with an ally too keen on friendly fire and unacceptable losses - and leave.

I’m sorry you’re stuck in the middle, I have a lot of sympathy for both you and your son

This morning he was fine and cuddly until he asked for his phone and dh said no. Next thing he's smashing pictures and ringing school to go into care.

Sorry not rtft but this sounds manipulative. It just sounds to me like ds doesn’t respond well to authority.
There’s no way he would actually want to go into care - he’s bluffing!

It just sounds as though your son wants everything his own way and doesn't like being told her has to respect his parents / school work / possesions / home.

Sadly, its all a bit namby pamby now but my best advise would be to stand by your husband and take a united front

Yes I agree. You sound a bit wet tbh OP. You’re dh doesn’t sound abusive at all from your posts (unless I’m missing something from a previous post) do you take a firm stance with ds? Maybe you should?

Oh, and I’ve been there, got the T-shirt. They usually come out of it by about 18-19!

Why can’t your DH see that his over the top sergeant major approach is causing this response from DS? Why does he continue to nit pick over stupidly insignificant little things all the time?

DH sounds like an absolute nightmare & a control freak. Sounds like an utterly unpleasant & damaging environment for both DSs to be in TBH.

Because being an authoritative parent is not a negative.

The OP says her DH is very authoritarian.

There is a big difference between these two parenting styles.

@Dickorydockwhatthe

Ds 1 is has a completely different attitude to dh and that's why he struggles. He was also away for the first 7 years of ds life and I honestly think his has also impacted their relationship as ds often refused to speak to dh when was away and dh found it difficult to handle.

So for 7 years your son didn’t have your DH in his life yet you refer to this being hard only for your DH.

So presumably at 7 your son suddenly had a loud, shouty man in his home, screaming at him if he don’t hop to every single one of your husband’s commands.

And everytime he didn’t, your DH was taking it as a slight against him and his authority and not thinking about how a young child would adapt to such a big change.

This set a dynamic where your husband puts his demands and his feelings before everything else because he MUST be obeyed.

Your husband doesn’t love your son 100%.
He loves him when he’s 100% under his control.

I’d bet your second son isn’t easier, just conditioned not to threaten the big man who must be obeyed immediately.

You have and will continue to fail your son until you accept this situation was caused by your husband being a bully who wants obedient minions who never threaten his authority, while you stand back and try to blame it all on your son.

I read your older post where you talk about your DH being an awful drinker and coming crashing in the middle of the night waking everyone up. At that point you were very worried for the example he was setting your two sons.
Is your DH still drinking?

You choose your son. Every time. He’s behaving like this because of the way his dad had treated him for years. Your son is learning a bunch of really dysfunctional behaviour because his dad has a bunch of really dysfunctional behaviour. Your dh is expecting him to be respectful and obedient and yet not demonstrating respect towards your son, being harsh and abusive toward him.
I’m guessing your dh ties himself in knots getting you to agree that he’s in the right, even though you clearly know in your heart that it’s not right.
Honestly, I’ve had a parent like that, I no longer speak to him, and it took me years to overcome to damage done to my self esteem and learn better ways to relate to people. The sooner you get your son away from his dad and start that healing process, the better.

To me, your husband doesn't sound like a bully, but your son does sound like a brat. Smashing up his laptop, smashing up pictures, lying about being hit, going AWOL, repeatedly breaking the law with Covid.

You say you pick your battles, if these are the things you are letting go, which ones do you fight? Because you sound like you're just letting him get away with his behaviour, and are contemplating ending your marriage based on his teenage whims.

I don’t think I’d be leaving DH unless I really wanted to. It’s too much responsibility to put on your son particularly as it sounds like he is craving independence. It wasn’t hugely uncommon in my friendship group when I was a teen for kids to start approaching the state for help to move away from their homes. It also wasn’t uncommon for friends to crash on other households sofas or move in with another family to get away from their parents.

My caveat to that would be if DH was at all physically violent. As long as it was only frustrated shouting I’m not sure I’d be trying to instigate a divorce over it.

The things your child have done in your explanations do sound like things he should be told off for. You’ve said that dh bullies him, I think confiscating a phone for a smashed laptop is reasonable. Have you any examples that highlight him being unreasonable?

The thing is, OP, your son isn't your DH and he's entitled to be himself. Your dh sounds aggressive, controlling and manipulative. He needs to back right off because your ds is trying to find his feet as a young adult, and your dh is preventing it.

My df was like that, constantly on my case, trying to force me to be a person I am not. It was like being in prison. I walked away and didn't go back until his funeral. I feel desperately sad for your son. Could you find somewhere else to live, and quickly.

• somewhere else for ds to live...

@Dickorydockwhatthe is this the same son you’ve referred to previously as being vulnerable due to having learning difficulties and being badly bullied in school?

If it is, the poor sod has been let down so many times when he should have been protected.

No wonder he’s acting out the way he is. He may as well when he’ll be bullied no matter what he does.

I think alot of people are being over dramatic. I don't think it is unusual for teenage sons and their dads to clash, it is part of growing up. I've currently got GS with me due to similar issues, he's as good as gold here but he can be difficult at home. He knows he winds his parents up, can't help himself. It is a shame OPs son can't stay with grandparents for a while.

OP you've said you've had other threads on this issue. Threads, before your son got taller, stronger and more able to stand up to his Dad. I'm not excusing your DS's recent behaviour but I'll guess that you've been told to leave your DH on those threads. It's been a time bomb waiting to go off

Considering your previous posts about DH have included him going to strip clubs, getting lap dances, binge drinking and being sick in your bed due to that drinking he might want to be a bit less of a hypocritical wanker when it comes to expecting a particularly positive response to telling a 16 year old they aren't behaving well.

He was basically absent for the first 7 years of your son's life due to work.

Then, he spent a good few years (based on the timing of your previous posts) coming home at all hours when he felt like it, drinking loads and being so disrespectful that he went to strip clubs and spent family money on lap dances while he was there.

And now he expects your son to respect his authority? And is surprised that now your son is finally of an age and size to square up to him that he does so? What a peach.

I would wager he's controlling in general and has created an eggshell atmosphere and you don't even realise you enable it. I used to get so angry with my dad for trying to dictate the mood of the house, would challenge him about it (not aggressively) and then my mum would shush me and defend him when he had been totally unreasonable. It damaged my relationship with her for quite some time.

Read your old posts. This really isn't your son's issue, it's about time your 'D'H grew the fuck up himself.

There seems to be a few issues here and maybe you could both do with some parenting advice and come to agreement on red lines but your DS smashing up laptops, not doing school work is unacceptable so I would not say it is definitely your DH who is the problem. Some services personnel do seem to be a bit over the top with discipline and I guess him not being around when your DS was small was difficult but your DS also needs to learn that smashing things up when things are not going his way are not acceptable either. Family counselling may help but from your post I would say that you have a problem with them both and leaving your DH to side with your DS may not solve your problems. I think your DS is being a bit naive to think going into a foster home will be better. There are rules there too.

Honestly I think you DS sounds like a total pita, There is nothing wrong with having to adhere to basic respectful rules, Smashing up an expensive laptop because you didn't get your way at 16 is totally unacceptable behavior. It absolutely would be better if your dh took at softer approach but its hard for some people to accept disrespect and keep their temper at the same time. The Foster Home thing sounds to me the equivalent of a younger childs threat of running away from home ie i'll make them sorry,
I shout at my kids occasionally when they drive me over the edge, its not ideal but I don't think I've scared them for life.
Honestly some people seem to equate any discipline at all with bullying, What do you see happening with your son if you and your DH separate, Do you see him turning into a respectful team or going further off the rails with no one at all to check him, Only you know the answer to that.

@Dickorydockwhatthe

Emotionally abusive behavior is just as damaging to your son Cofindence !
Your son has a Crap male role model,
Your husband confuses your son blowing hot and cold towards his son.

Its a drip drip effect on your sons Cofindence !

It worries me that your husband emotionaly abuse your son is effecting your son mental/emotional health and there is strong evidence that childhood emotional abuse/neglect, all kinds of abusive is detrimental to a child's growing mind develops and they are more vunerable to when they grow up entering repeating similar/same relantships/family patterns that are toxic/Dysfunctioal ,fucked up.!

Your son is already reacting to your husbands bullying ways !

@sadie9

I read your older post where you talk about your DH being an awful drinker and coming crashing in the middle of the night waking everyone up. At that point you were very worried for the example he was setting your two sons. Is your DH still drinking?

Oh really!?? He's not an alcoholic he hardly drinks but when he does hes rubbish at controlling his limit. I know many adults like this. It's nothing to do with it.

I would have thought family therapy would be a good place to start.

If your DH has been in the army, is it likely that he experienced trauma during his tours? Or difficulty adjusting to civilian life? Could he seek help from some of the veterans associations? I say that because this anger, irritability and bullying of their wife & children is very common amongst ex servicemen. The army breaks people in order to build them up again as a fighting unit. This does not work in family life. Trauma lasts.