Think I may need to choose between ds and dh....

[Dickorydockwhatthe]

I've put many threads on mumsnet about their relationship. Dh and massively ds clash and this has worsened as ds has got older. It has led to some awful rows with me in the middle and even telling dh he's pushing his son away and I may have to choose. Dh is very authoritarian as a parent and doesn't know when to choose his battles which has resulted in ds 16 rebellion, lashing out, having no respect for dh and now wanting to go into Foster care. I've spoken to dh many a times and he's tried but it goes back to how it was. Now ds is 16 and rebelling his authoritarian approach is having no effect because he's so accustomed to dh shouting or getting annoyed nothing works. I feel like I've failed ds massively as he's so anti dh right now and I think I've let him down😔. Dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. But for some reason he thinks kids should do as they are told and be respectful and ds isn't like that. Ds 2 on the hand is completely different. School are now involved and we are planning to have a family conference for meditation. Ds has expressed he wants to leave. I've looked into leaving dh not because I don't love him but because of the toxic relationship between him and ds. But coming from a broken home myself I felt we could try and work on it as we are a family and ultimately we love each other very much. But I've let ds down and now I may lose him. If I leave dh we have no where to live, I can't afford the mortgage on my own as only work part time and my pay isn't great. I'm financially dependent on dh and have no idea where I stand with raising two children alone. I just feel like this is going to break out family apart and have no idea what to do 🙁

Social services will never in a million years put your son into foster care. This is not going to happen, your son can wish all he likes. I know because we explored this having come to a complete impasse with adopted teen ds. I'm also reading people saying dh sounds like a bully. In our case ds was the bully I'm sorry to say. He's 26 now and loads better if that is any help at all. God knows how, probably just maturity. He often doesn't seem to like us very much, but I honestly think he would have been devastated if we had seperated especially as he would have known it was down to him and the need he had at that time to control, intimidate and generally act out.

He's been bullied by his own dad in his own home for 16 years, what do you expect?

Your child should have come before your husband a long time ago. The job of a parent is to protect their child, not to stand by while the other parent harms the child.

In what way is this not already a "broken home" ? It's completely toxic and damaging.

Research indicates that children can be more damaged into the long term by non-physical abuse than physical violence.

It's not good enough to stand by through all this and say "but he's not violent". Good. That shouldn't even be in question, it should be a given and it doesn't entitle someone to be an abusive, domineering bully.

I can't speak to the rights and wrongs of your family situation because I just don't know, but it does sound like family therapy could be a good way forward if your DH is willing. Speaking as someone who had also had an authoritarian ( actually an aggressive, bullying) father during my teen years, the relationship doesn't just recover on its own. Ours is now cordial (at least) but there's little love lost. That said, it isn't your job to fix this. If your DS is that desperate, I would say your DH has to man up and sort it out. He's the grown up here, not your DS

Gosh. Your child has been utterly failed by all the adults in his life. You should be ashamed.

If your dh (dear - really?) won't leave and you won't leave then you've lost your child. To the care system and all that entails.

Don't make the same mistake with your other child. Go to your parents.

People are very against your DH here, but the actual facts you've given us so far are that your DH is nitpicking and shouts (not great), confiscated a phone from a child who had just smashed the laptop that presumably you boihjt him.

Your DS smashed his own laptop, won't follow covid rules enough to live with his.grandparents, is squaring up to DH and you fear violence, is.demanding to go into foster care after hearing from his (either clueless or.dangerous) friends that it will be cushier...

Like others say, it sounds like your.DH could do with a parenting course but unless you share more specifics or backstory it sounds like maybe you're a little blind to.DS's role here.

No one will be able to give appropriate advice, as they don't know the ins and outs of your situation. Personally, it doesn't sound over the top to expect a child to do as they're told and be respectful - and that includes following simple family rules like getting changed after school and putting your bag where it is supposed to be. That being said, if you feel your DH's way of dealing with situations escalates matters, would he consider some type of parenting course (whey they are available again)?

Your poor son. Bullied by his Dad all his life and now his dad can’t cope with his son standing up for himself. You sound quite intimidated by your husband too and have inadvertently let your children down by not doing anything about it. You know your husband won’t change so if he won’t you have to otherwise you will lose your sons because as soon as they are able they will leave and if I was them, probably not return

so basically teenagers can do whatever they want and if their parents discipline them then they are completely in the wrong?
The son smashes things up, goes awol, doesn't do schoolwork.

what exactly do you all think SHOULD be happening?

picking your battles is important but so is maintaining standards of behaviour.

The wanting to go into foster care is bluster and trying to scare you.

@lockedownloretta there is a big difference between discipline and bullying which from what the op says is exactly what is happening here

Any one that knows dh will say he's the nicest bloke. When ds needs him he's there for him 100%. He's not a bad person he's a good husband and he has no issues with my younger ds although he's slightly easier then ds 1. This is why I struggle as he will do anything for them but ds 1 frustrates him when he doesn't listen or because he has a lazy attitude so doesn't help out etc. Dh is very hard working, used be in the forces so he can't deal with it when ds is rude or muck in. If he was violent or a bad person I would have left but I had hoped things would better because I know dh loves him.

show me examples of bullying

Going awol is one way of putting it. Not wanting to go home is another way.

@dickorydockwhatthe everyone would have said the same about my dad. Mr Nice guy. Behind closed doors is something very different. I'm pretty sure Harold Shipman was seen as the 'nice gp' and Fred West was a lovely neighbour. Outward facades are just that.

Your dh isn't a nice guy, he is verbally abusive to your son. He has nit picked and bullied to the point your 16 year old rallies against him and now you gear it could end up violent. Will you please listen to yourself. That is not a normal healthy parent child relationship. That is abusive, toxic and dangerous.

Ds 1 is has a completely different attitude to dh and that's why he struggles. He was also away for the first 7 years of ds life and I honestly think his has also impacted their relationship as ds often refused to speak to dh when was away and dh found it difficult to handle.

@DarcyJack

Social services will never in a million years put your son into foster care. This is not going to happen, your son can wish all he likes. I know because we explored this having come to a complete impasse with adopted teen ds. I'm also reading people saying dh sounds like a bully. In our case ds was the bully I'm sorry to say. He's 26 now and loads better if that is any help at all. God knows how, probably just maturity. He often doesn't seem to like us very much, but I honestly think he would have been devastated if we had seperated especially as he would have known it was down to him and the need he had at that time to control, intimidate and generally act out.

This times a hundred, no way will he be put in foster care.

The fact he thinks kids should do as they are told, almost nit picking about little things. Shouting when ds doesn't do as he's asked straight away. It's little things in the past and dhs reaction that have damaged the relationship. And now ds is older he's squaring up to dh and I'm worried things will get violent.

So he's nit picked and bullied a child for years and now the child is presumably closer to his size, he's squaring up to him and your partner suddenly says you need to choose between them? Funny that. Bullies are always cowards.

Daily nit picking and being shouted at when it isn't warranted are death by a thousand paper cuts. Chipping away at a kid's self esteem and self control until they start acting out.

Your 'D'H seemed enough comfortable shouting at a kid that he didn't give you an ultimatum until he started squaring up to him, I assume?

Stop making excuses for your DH behaviour, so was your son. I tried to kill myself 3 times and when I passed my GCSEs I ran away from home and lived with my boyfriend. I have depression and anxiety, my brother who is like your younger son is unwell due to living with him. I've just fluttered from emotionally abusive relationship to emotionally abusive relationship, still effects me even though I when NC over a decade ago. Just stop this your children are worth more than this

It might feel counter intuitive but I think you need to let your DS have more freedom and more responsibility. When I was 16, my parents wouldn't know whether or not I had done my homework, they certainly wouldn't check. If I didn't do it, then that was my problem as I'd be punished by the school. Your DH sounds too involved and micro managing DS's behaviour. Your DS needs to be free to make his own mistakes and face up to the consequences. Of course, when you all live together then you need some rules but they need to apply to everyone in the household so your DS should speak nicely to you and DH but DH also has to abide by this and not shout. Both your kids could have input into what they think should be household rules. You can't force a 16 year old to respect or obey you, and I think your DH needs to take rebuilding his relationship with DS seriously.

Bullying your child doesn't make him a bad person? Give over.

It doesn't matter what other people say about him being a nice bloke. They don't live with him and they're not on the receiving end of his behaviour.

And frankly, communities have turned around and exclaimed "but he was such a nice man" about men who'd just murdered their families or been sent to prison for child rape.

It means nothing.

You're making excuses for the indefensible because you want to continue standing by while this man damages your child. I'm not going to pat you on the back for that and encourage you to continue.

It's wrong.

Family counselling sounds like the best solution but in the mean time what have they done to try to resolve this?

Are the rules and punishments your dh sets consistent? Expectations for helping out etc? Tbh a few basic rules and keeping apart as much as possible may have to be the solution for the next 2 years. I know of families where the teens basically live in their rooms, not ideal but better than being homeless.

You say your dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. It would be a shame to throw away that because of a teenagers tantrum's. I don't mean to sound rude but that's just the impression you give of your ds. Maybe he could stay with a relative for a bit to try and calm down the situation at home ? Maybe an aunt or grandparent?

@Dickorydockwhatthe

The fact he thinks kids should do as they are told, almost nit picking about little things. Shouting when ds doesn't do as he's asked straight away. It's little things in the past and dhs reaction that have damaged the relationship. And now ds is older he's squaring up to dh and I'm worried things will get violent. Ds has spoken to school about his relationship with his dad before he said dh hit him to a friend (he didn't) but school obviously rang me. He's also been getting in trouble, going awol and blaming it on dh relationship. He's told school he wants to go into care. School are now involved.

If he is lying that dh hit him, I'm sorry but that's awful behaviour from a teen who should know better.

@mummytolittledragons assuming he did lie and wasn't coerced into retracting it.

The fact DH was away for the first 7 years of DS life is what sticks out for me.

Did he think DS1 got an easy ride because you did the majority of the parenting and that he needed to rectify that? Is he jealous of the relationship between you and DS1 which I assume is close?

DH also seems to think that his child is like one of his military subordinates to be ordered around but he’s not in the army now...

It sounds like there are a huge amount of issues to unpack here. Family counselling seems to be your only chance.

It just sounds as though your son wants everything his own way and doesn't like being told her has to respect his parents / school work / possesions / home.

Sadly, its all a bit namby pamby now but my best advise would be to stand by your husband and take a united front.

Who didnt get the urge to run away as a teen when told "no" for something that on reflection was a reasonable no.

Your son sounds like an absolute toe rag and and i can see why your husband is frustrated.

Respect the house rules or get out, would be the best approach. He wont last long on his mates sofa and will soon be crawling back when his mates mum gets fed up with him.

Social services wont get involved, having a mobile phone isnt a basic human right...