Think I may need to choose between ds and dh....

[Dickorydockwhatthe]

I've put many threads on mumsnet about their relationship. Dh and massively ds clash and this has worsened as ds has got older. It has led to some awful rows with me in the middle and even telling dh he's pushing his son away and I may have to choose. Dh is very authoritarian as a parent and doesn't know when to choose his battles which has resulted in ds 16 rebellion, lashing out, having no respect for dh and now wanting to go into Foster care. I've spoken to dh many a times and he's tried but it goes back to how it was. Now ds is 16 and rebelling his authoritarian approach is having no effect because he's so accustomed to dh shouting or getting annoyed nothing works. I feel like I've failed ds massively as he's so anti dh right now and I think I've let him down😔. Dh is a good man in many ways and a good husband. But for some reason he thinks kids should do as they are told and be respectful and ds isn't like that. Ds 2 on the hand is completely different. School are now involved and we are planning to have a family conference for meditation. Ds has expressed he wants to leave. I've looked into leaving dh not because I don't love him but because of the toxic relationship between him and ds. But coming from a broken home myself I felt we could try and work on it as we are a family and ultimately we love each other very much. But I've let ds down and now I may lose him. If I leave dh we have no where to live, I can't afford the mortgage on my own as only work part time and my pay isn't great. I'm financially dependent on dh and have no idea where I stand with raising two children alone. I just feel like this is going to break out family apart and have no idea what to do 🙁

[quote thosetalesofunexpected]@Dickorydockwhatthe

Your husband served in the forces

He is well versed in acting being like a army Sargent Major type at home.
Your husband is a classic bullying father career isn't it !

I bet he your husband had a emotionally step father or father ?
And that's why he escaped to the army wasn't it from the abuse back home isn't it?[/quote]
Umm no please don't make assumptions.

@Babyboomtastic the son is not the one manipulating everyone in the house with their disgusting behaviour.

Calling a child who has been bullied by his father since he was 7 years old ‘a brat’ says a lot about why so many children turn into dysfunctional adults.

but I think some posters might be being over harsh about the father.

You need to search OP's previous threads @Amotherlife

Hi OP. I have been posting on your other thread. I think it is a ocmplex situation, and there are faults on all sides, not helped by lockdown etc.

One thing that your ds will need to understand, is that there are no foster places for teenagers in this context. He wouldn't meet any of the thresholds. If he does leave with social services, it would be into some sort of children't home/half way house for teens which would not be a great option.
So, realistically, the options are

1. you leave dh
2. Together as a family you get mediation and find a way forward
3. ds leaves and finds a flat share etc and also find a job to pay for it - in the middle of a pandemic.
4. dh leaves and leaves you in the family home while you try and move forward. (this would be an excellent option)

realistically, ds is going to have to either stay with you, or stay with a family member/friend.

A lot depends on what your dh is saying. Is he upset at the situation and wanting help? Does he think this is 100% on ds and he is just being a parent, not his fault?

I think, if there is an openness from dh to work on it, then you need to find counselling as an emergency. That will not be coming from NHS/CAMHS as their waiting lists are so long.
If you can pay for private, and find someone to do some online counselling, that would be a start. If ds sees that you are all serious about making changes, he may be willing to stay.

@Babyboomtastic

Wow, your son is doing a fine job in manipulating you.

And your husband loses his wife. And you your husband.
Your other two children lose living with a father they get in with.

And your son discovers that he can make that happen by breaking expensive equipment, breaking the law and being a brat.

I'm not sure what the lesson is going to be here for him, but I don't see it being very helpful for anyone long term.

Family counselling is a far better suggestion.

And how could you not be sure about taking his phone off him after he delibrately smashed a laptop, and when he keeps going AWOL with friends that you know are a bad influence.

I'm not sure if it's your husband being very authoritarian here or you just letting your son get away with anything.

There was another thread on this. The son smashed up a laptop after being pinned down by his father. Not saying it's right but he's not really had a great role model, has he?

If you chose your children, (which I would), would dh leave if you asked him to or would you (and your children), have to move? Do you have anywhere to go?

I've been in a similar situation with my Dh and 14 year old Dd. We are now separated and getting divorced, it wasn't the only reason, he is controlling in many ways. I have always been compliant and bent over backwards to keep him happy, walking on eggshells etc. He constantly picked at our DD, really unreasonable rules which he felt she had to abide by but because our younger DS was compliant most of the time there was actually less rules for him. Our house was so unhappy, we never spent time as a family and I was trapped in the middle the entire time. Since he has left we spend lots more time together and when he's not around it's a relaxed normal household. He's caused loads of issues since he's left, and I don't feel they will ever have a relationship again. She has said he wouldn't be invited to her wedding. I'm sad I chose so badly for her.

I am not saying your DH is right in any way, but are you managing to be consistent parents or are you undermining your DH? It sounds possibly confusing for your DS.

Oops sorry I ment to put Ops username instead !

Well I'm getting a mixed bag of responses and attacked as usual on mumsnet. I really don't need judgement or to feel any shitter then I already do. Either decision will upset my children and ruin our family. As for the phone that's all that's on ds mind and all he seems to care about so it's making me question his motives about going into care right now. I've had a whole situation about this with ds going awol because of the phone and not coming home. He's put us through hell the last few weeks but his relationship with dh hasn't helped because theres no respect. But that doesn't excuse dh previous behaviour towards him. I was working when the the laptop thing went on but I would have been pissed aboutit and the fact ds was going to meet his friends when he should have been doing work it's a lockdown not a holiday.

@AngryPrincess

If you chose your children, (which I would), would dh leave if you asked him to or would you (and your children), have to move? Do you have anywhere to go?

I don't know. And I'm not sure ds 2 would stay or go with me purely because he will will be torn between us. It will literally break my heart.

There is a couple of very important pieces of background you have missed here if your old threads are to be believed (and I have no reason not to)

1. your husband is a total prick- heavy drinker, disrespectful, treats you like shit, messes about with OW, untrustworthy

2. your son is dyslexic, has learning difficulties, has been bullied and basically had a miserable time at school

And you are posting here saying you "might" have to choose between them ? I fucking despair.

I'd probably try counselling for your son, and family counselling for you all as a unit, first. See if you can make any progress and if a few compromises from both sides can work. If not then I'd say leaving DH would be your only option, although honestly, if your son is in his mid to late teens, it's probably a bit late for all that now. He can move out in two years and by then, if things keep going as they are, they'll be damaged beyond repair. I'm also not sure if things with your son could even be fixed before he turns 18. Two years isn't a very long time to un-do years of drama.

Regardless of whether you leave DH or not, you definitely do need to try counselling and stick at it for a long time. It will give all of you ways to communicate and at least then, even if the family does break up, you have a hope at being able to remain civil, co-parent effectively and not lose your son.

It's very difficult to truly understand the extent of this situation, though. Your husband could be parenting normally with you being a walk over. Similarly, your husband could be coming down far too harshly on your son and it verging into abusive territory. Or, your son could have a lot of unresolved issues due to past experiences in his life and needed help for that a lot sooner than now, which is why things have blown up in the way that they have.

Either way, seek out counselling and see what they have to say. They'll know much more than any of us here when they hear things from all sides.

Not sure if adding to the mass of advice on here is helpful- but here’s my thoughts:

At the moment, you’re living in a tinder box. No good long term decisions are made or relationships improved in such a volatile environment.

The best thing you can do now, to save your son (and your marriage, if you really want to stay with this man) is to arrange a break. A cooling off period- realistically of several months, during which time you have a clear, mediated plan to improve things, VERY slowly between you all. Things are very wrong, but you know that. And you all need space to stand a chance of repairing it.

I would caution against “ending the marriage” at this point for your sons sake. That’s too great a burden to put on your 16yr olds shoulders- and that’s where it will sit, in his mind, his brothers and possibly yours too? Staying married, and in a partnership, but accept the best thing for that partnership right now is to work together but with a lot of space. And your son needs ALOT of space, love and time. And you can not be constantly trying to advocate on your husbands behalf during that time. You need third party mediators to do that. Or your son will never trust you.

That’s IF you still want to stay married to a man with this side to his personality. Which is your right of course.

@AnyFucker

There is a couple of very important pieces of background you have missed here if your old threads are to be believed (and I have no reason not to)

1. your husband is a total prick- heavy drinker, disrespectful, treats you like shit, messes about with OW, untrustworthy

2. your son is dyslexic, has learning difficulties, has been bullied and basically had a miserable time at school

And you are posting here saying you "might" have to choose between them ? I fucking despair.

This.

As I said OP, read back the title of this thread that you wrote and ask whether a decent husband or father would have suggested you might need to make that choice. And frankly, how you are considering it yourself...

If my son was not respecting his parents or the house rules, breaking CoVid guidance, smashing his laptop, going AWOL, I’d be pretty harsh on him too! If he wants to live in our house he respects the rules if he doesn’t then he finds somewhere else to live!

If your dh’s parenting was that bad he would be affecting both children and not just your eldest.

The care system will not be a good move fir a 16 year old. If he thinks his father is authoritarian he’ll get it 100 times worse in care. He’ll be in a home, rather than foster care, more than likely. And it’s shit. Really really shit. Involve SS, get a narrative going, but please keep him out of Care

If your dh’s parenting was that bad he would be affecting both children and not just your eldest.

Absolutely not true if he parents them differently, which is hugely commonplace.

@AnyFucker

I've tried looking at previous threads, there are a lot from the OP and perhaps I'm missing the ones about her husband? I've seen a lot about her son's behaviour. I've got no reason to doubt your it's just odd how they aren't coming up for me.

2. I think the bullied son is a younger one, though this son does have other difficulties with school I believe (from the previous threads I've seen).

I completely agree with this.
Counselling for all of you.

@Dickorydockwhatthe for allowing your husband to dictate that communication with your children be screaming and demanding authority for everything minor to major you DO need judgement.

In this thread you haven’t said a nice or positive thing about your son to balance the negative yet you are at pains to say what a great guy your husband is - when he isn’t throwing tantrums because your teenage son acted like a normal teenager.

Do you think your son doesn’t know that you dislike him? Because that dislike is dripping through.

You even trivialise him wanting to go into care.
Do you have any idea what has to happen in a child’s head to decide that living in care is better than staying in their family home?

You can say it’s because he wants a phone or wants to copy his ‘rough’ mates all you like. That’s not why.

I am not going to link them here, that would not be fair. Op has an extensive posting history, it's all in there. There is probably more, under different names.

Op, it's way past the time for you to protect your son. Don't leave it any longer.

[quote Babyboomtastic]@AnyFucker

I've tried looking at previous threads, there are a lot from the OP and perhaps I'm missing the ones about her husband? I've seen a lot about her son's behaviour. I've got no reason to doubt your it's just odd how they aren't coming up for me.

2. I think the bullied son is a younger one, though this son does have other difficulties with school I believe (from the previous threads I've seen).[/quote] They are all there. Husband is a jackass. And this ds is the older one.

[quote Babyboomtastic]@AnyFucker

I've tried looking at previous threads, there are a lot from the OP and perhaps I'm missing the ones about her husband? I've seen a lot about her son's behaviour. I've got no reason to doubt your it's just odd how they aren't coming up for me.

2. I think the bullied son is a younger one, though this son does have other difficulties with school I believe (from the previous threads I've seen).[/quote] Her husband really does sound horrible and it's clear there have been issues with his behaviour for years.

Are you going to actually do anything op? I don't think it really matters now if you do or don't - you been complicit in enabling this situation to the detriment of your son for nearly all of his childhood. It is too late to act now.

The bald facts are -

1. Your ds wants to go into care (damming indictment of both you and your husband)
2. He is 16 and could run away or just hang on until 18 and get free.
3. You haven't been on your son's side, you have done some extensive hand-wringing on here and ignored all the advice you've been given.
4. You are not in the middle as you have given your ds no reason to trust you anymore than your husband.

Good luck maintaining a relationship with your son once he leaves home, you will need it.