SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

So sorry for your loss. I think talking to Bill is a great idea.

In your shoes I’d also quietly change your will leaving DD1’s share to your DGC in trust . one of my friends parents has done this to avoid their childs spouse getting hold of the money.

I have thought about you and your situation a lot, wondering how you and your DH were doing. I am really, really sorry to hear about his passing. I’m sending you love to you and your lovely daughters ❤️.

I'm sorry for all your losses, much worse when they all come close together.

Take your time with decisions, talk things over with people who aren't directly involved.

It's a shame they're going to inherit from her aunt. But they do at least seem to buy property, which in the (happy) chance of a divorce would leave her with at least half. Maybe keep the records of sending her money then she'd be able to prove a larger holding.

Take the time to grieve, it's been such an awful time, you need to take this time without any negativity from them. I think you need to lower expectations eg don't expect thanks, it won't happen.

If I knew you, there would be a massive hug.

Honestly put this to bed for another 12 months. You are in the very early stages of grief and I would suggest you shouldn't make any big decisions for at least a year.

Say Covid eroded your finances more than you though it would or a similar plausible excuse.

I was going to suggest something very similar to this. If it's mentioned again, I'd either be very vague, well be as vague as you can be for as long as you can be and when that no longer works try saying that you've had time now to properly go through your finances after the sad loss of your DH and unfortunately, it's no longer feasible.

I agree with the others who've said that if it's left in your will, the money may no longer be there if you ever have to go into care.

Also Agee that you need very careful advice, you don't want a product that he can close or withdraw from as a parent.

And I wouldn't wanting your DGC getting hold of the money at 18 either.

I also agree with everything Yoni says.

I missed the Lobster Boy threads but just from this thread he sounds like a truly odious man, it must be heartbreaking losing your DD to him.

My advice? Read YoniandGuy's post.

Then read it again.

Yep what @YoniAndGuy says is absolutely true.

Print it off and read it regularly.

What about your other DD’s? Are they likely to have children?

@RandomMess

Yep what *@YoniAndGuy* says is absolutely true.

Print it off and read it regularly.

totally agree 🌺

My Grandoarents opened a savings account for each of us that we could access at 18. My DF did the same for my DS. Open the accounts you want and state it in your will. It is your money, not his.

Hi ChopinandChampagne,

I read your old thread this afternoon and it made me feel really bad for you. I'm so sorry you lost your husband recently. As someone who lost both my parents in the last two years, I found it difficult to understand how awful your daughter and her husband have been to you all. Their behaviour has divided your family, brought you enormous stress during your last years with your husband and robbed you of the early years with your grandchildren. Your SIL's behaviour has been unforgivable and you have been extremely patient with them both.

Your relationship with your daughter is transactional (much of it from her side) and I am puzzled by your latest offer of giving some money to your DGC so they can remember your husband. It seems is equally transactional from your side.

Would it not have been more appropriate and uncomplicated to make a photo book, filled with photos and letters/activities/achievements of your husband for each of them to have so that they could really discover and appreciate who he was? I say this also because I read that you have already left money for them in your wills and because offering something other than money wouldn't have opened the opportunity for your SIL to be demanding, controlling, open up old wounds and drive a wedge between you and your daughter again.

When I was at university (many years ago) I wanted a car to learn to drive on. My mother offered to buy herself a new car and give my older sister (who already drove) her existing car so my sister could give me her car (which had also once been our mothers) and my boyfriend could teach me to drive. We hitched home for a family weekend to all swap cars but when it came time to leave my father intervened and persuaded my mother not to do this. So I left with my boyfriend, without a car, feeling irritated, humiliated and helpless. Luckily my boyfriend was a nice man and we moved on, but the lack of planning, following though, and changing their minds at the last minute ran through my mind as I read your post.

I thought your DD1 might have felt the same way I did and this feeling intensified when DD2 graduated and disastrously your SIL exacerbated all this tension to make it become what it has. Reading your older posts I thought that money was often demanded, hinted at, promised, given, loaned or withdrawn with the expectation of behavioural change on all sides and this is in its own way has been quite toxic in your relationships. The reality is, of course, that you had the money and they didn't and this made you quite powerful (although you never felt it) and made them powerless, reliant on you and insecure and the only way they could feel powerful was to deny you access to their love and children which they cruelly did.

I think the fact that you can spend a year or so insisting that the money you give for their rent is a loan and then suddenly decide it's a gift demonstrates this imbalance of power. You think it's a nice thing to do and they should be grateful. it is a lovely thing to do and they really should be grateful for this but they aren't and I wonder if it is because they're resentful that you can give money away when you want to, and they have no control over whatever you decide, which increases their dependence on you (difficult for your controlling SIL). Although god knows why they need their parents to pay their rent when they have two children and two houses already - they're grown ups and highly irresponsible people.

That's why if I was you, I think I would avoid any further monetary gifts of any kind including anything to the DGC. It's obvious where the future lies. Your daughter has married an awful controlling man and together, whether through resentment or greed, they are manipulating you for your money. They refuse to earn their own money, and seem to live on very little, but as their children get older they will need more. So where will they try to get money from if they haven't got it from anywhere else - YOU of course!

Rather than continue this way, why don't you make clear that as a widow now your finances are much tighter and you will not be making any more gifts to them and as they now have a rental house and an 100K inheritance from a relative you do not expect them to ask for any more. That way the future is clear and the potential for family wide conflicts is reduced and you can provide support to your other children who have proved much more supportive and worthy of it.

And, I'm sorry to say this but if you haven't done so already, also make clear plans for your future. As she is the eldest daughter she has some greater legal say over your care in the event you become mentally incapacitated. Make sure this does not happen by appointing suitable financial and health and welfare powers of attorney (if you haven't already - perhaps your other daughters) and alert your POAs that your eldest daughter may be difficult. If you do not do this now, he could make your life and all of your children's lives difficult in the future.

You must find all this so horrible to have to deal with now after losing your husband. I wish you much luck. I think you have been amazingly brave, long suffering and considerate.

Getting Health & Financial POAs in place now, that don't involve DD1 or SIL is a good point. You can apply yourself, you don't really need a Solicitor.

I read your previous thread OP and just want to say I'm really sorry for your loss and that you are still having to deal with this terrible situation. I came from an abusive household myself and my advice is to never discuss money with LB or your DD. Invest for your grandchildren but have the investment tied up until they are late 20s. It will take them that long to be fully rid of his influence. If they get any money at 18 and he knows it's coming he will have plans for it and they will be too much under his influence/control to not hand him the money. I would also make sure any will cuts out your DD whilst she is still with him. Again give her share to your GC to receive when they are late 20s. Harsh but fair. I'm sure your DD feels all the things you say about her father. But she is still too weak to stand up to him so anything which goes to her will go to him. My experience and that of many, many like me suggests that she will also not stand up for her children however much she loves them.

@YoniAndGuy

I say this carefully, OP, but watch yourself with your DD.

Don't let your DH's wish dominate to the extent you make yourself vulnerable. More than harmony, he'd want you to be able to look after yourself and prioritise yourself in the way you need to do right now.

She is not your friend.

Nice to see all the platitudes now - that she obviously would have wanted him at her wedding - when it's too late.

Yes, she is in an abusive relationship. That may be the reason, but it doesn't change the fact that you need to still be wary of her and letting her 'in'. He directs her. More than that, he has changed her. There was nothing stopping her thanking you for your writing off the loan, was there?

I would take some time to think, now, if I were you, about where you would like this to go, and more than that - where you would like this to not go. Make no mistake, your DH's passing will have changed the dynamic for LB. He will be feeling more in charge. He's a nasty little misogynist, among other things, remember - so you now, a widow, will be seen as much, much less of a threat and more able to be dominated than a 'pair' of adults of the generation above. So he will be feeling bolder at elbowing his way 'into' your side of things - your family and the elements that were closed to him and DD.

Secondly, for that same reason I think you need fear a second estrangement far less. I don't think they'll withdraw again. That boil has been lanced, contact has been made - and LB has seen that you pose little real threat, and less again without your DH. He'll want to stay in touch with one eye on your will, far more than he'll want to make a stroppy point by punishing with no contact if you push back.

Which means that with situations like this, you can push back and you should. Obliquely, of course. Hide behind your bereavement. Be opaque with your DD and non-committal, whenever something comes up and he tries to push himself in. Your DD will be aware that she's pushed you to the limit and has lost the true regard of her sisters, so she won't want to push too hard either.

The reason you should push back where you can is this. You won't achieve even a vaguely harmonious outcome any other way - for you, but also for your other DDs. If you want things to work at all, you are going to have to keep LB and your DD at a certain arms' length, always, because if you relax too much, try and swallow it down and treat them all as 'family' in order to keep the peace, it's only a matter of time before this utterly unpleasant man and his toxicity will start to touch your other DDs, and there will be a massive, massive blow out. They won't tolerate him. Because they presumably won't be prepared to give their sister one inch at their own expense, she's taken enough already.

Your DH's wish was a simple one, but I think it is going to take the most complex, cynical, and ongoing gameplay to make it happen.

I too remember Lobster boy.

Truly an awful individual - however I agree with everything yoniandguy said. Your daughter is not a pure victim in this and still sounds fairly transactional and unpleasant.
There is a new dynamic at play now both due to your DH sadly passing and the new inheritance.

Hats off to them though - I am amazed at how much your DD and LB land on their feet despite both being workshy.

Take comfort in your two other DDs and be gentle with yourself - grief isn't easy.

I'd also arrange your own will to leave money directly to their children not the two of them and if asked/interogated just say it's very simple - its split equally and theres no more to say on it.

I am very sorry for the losses you have suffered recently OP, it must be very hard.

I too remember the original threads about LB, what an awful man he is.

However, I will also add my voice to others urging caution and particularly @YoniAndGuy and @SoEverybodyDance - I think they both are providing some insight into this situation which I think you should think about and reflect on. The mention of future needs and LPOA is really crucial too.

As it is very early days in your grief I will just say there is no rush to decide what you ought to do to remember your DH. Best wishes.

I agree with @SoEverybodyDance says. You have now gifted them the loan.

From now on no money to any of them until your death or the DGD are hitting 30 and direct to them.

They will be far to under SIL control before then to make the best choices for themselves. It will be assumed you will funder their higher education or SIL will decide how they should invest it.

When they bring it up again you can say you've now spoken properly with your financial advisor and it's more complicated than you thought and don't have enough to invest in their behalf right now after all.

You need to pay the grieving don't have as much money as you thought widow. SIL will bleed you dry if you aren't careful.

It would be lovely to do photo books for the DDs and DGD of your beloved DH far better a way of remembering him.

Thank you so much for all of your replies and the tremendous support and advice. I feel quite overwhelmed, especially that some of you have remembered or even referred back to my previous thread.

I agree that it was a huge mistake to offer money to the DGDs or, more particularly, to discuss it first with DD1. It was just that their grandfather left them some money and it really meant a lot to them. But I also sent a lot of photos to DD1 after we learned of DGD1's existence, and we are having 'memory bears' made out of DH's clothes, as a keepsake. Friends from DH's school and college have offered to prepare obituaries for the respective alumni publications and I have resubscribed to Ancestry to gain access to the family tree, so that I can share it with the DGDs.

Yoni, you make some excellent points and I do feel very alone and vulnerable at present. Some days I find it hard to function very much at all. I just try to complete some tasks and get through the day. I know that I am a 'widow' - I hate that word - and that the dynamic has changed. I also know that I can't fully trust DD1 whilst she remains with LB. As a pp said, I can't win with him, because he always believes that he is cleverer than anyone else as, unfortunately, does DD. But I have no intention of being dominated by him.

SoEverybodyDance, I found your post extremely helpful and especially the reference to the situation with the car. I think that there is a lot of truth in what you say about the resentment on their part.

By way of background for anyone who may be interested (and sorry for too much information if you are not interested), the original 'transaction', which was the subject of my first thread, involved DD1 asking me to help her buy a house with LB when they left university. I agreed, on the basis that it would be a loan protected by a Deed of Trust. LB didn't like that idea and got angry when I emailed the solicitors to ask them to draft this. He also got angry that I insisted on a survey, as he thought it was a waste of money, and was extremely irritated if the estate agents contacted me (DD had asked them to do so). I really saw a different side to LB's nature and he and DD were constantly arguing and she was crying all the time. I made him leave my house and had to threaten to call the police, after he wouldn't go and DD had locked herself in the bathroom and was sobbing. He has never forgiven me for that.

There were also certain other aspects to his behaviour at the time which gave me cause for concern. For example, he tried to prevent DD going on a holiday with her friends, which she had booked before she met him, and he started telling the other tenants what to do in the house which DD shared (he wasn't a tenant). In addition, I became concerned that, instead of seeking a job (he has a first class engineering degree), he and DD seemed to have no intention of working for a living. DD said that they weren't 'like other people', didn't want to be tied to a mortgage, jobs etc, spoke of living 'off grid'.

I didn't want DD to be tied to a controlling partner and I didn't want my hard earned cash (which was coming from my pension) to go to fund an idle lifestyle. Yes, I am willing to help all of my DDs to help themselves, but it is not doing anyone any favours to let them remain dependants - not least because they will resent you for it, as has happened.

Have a look at premium bonds, you can do this as a grandparent and add to them.

Morning @ChopinandChampagne. You have come so far you're doing so well.

How is DD doing with her course? I guess the pandemic must have effected it a lot but hopefully she is still able to engage with others on the course as she has always seemed so isolated.

Also did DH specifically leave them the money in his will or is it an informal arrangement that he had discussed with you? If it is the former, LB has no say in the matter and you can simply put the money in accounts for them to access when they are 25. If it is the latter, I would be inclined to put it in a trust account to split between all the grandchildren, present and future. One thing that came up a lot in the previous thread was not to isolate your other DD's whilst trying to placate DD1 and LB. I can't imaging how you must be feeling on top of all the personal loss you have suffered over the last year, the relationship with DD1 must still feel so very fragile so you are feel you may have to compromise to prevent a reoccurrence of the estrangement.

oh @ChopinandChampagne I'm so sorry to hear what a tough year you've had, and that LB and DD1 are still not making things easy for you. Out of interest, while they are making money breeding puppies, did they offer you one when you lost your own dog? that would be a nice way to aknowledge a £10k gift if they can't muster the words "thank you".

In terms of the gift to the grandchildren, make one that their parents are unaware of. If it needs to be in a very simple trust, then that at least ensures that LB will not get his hands on it, but for the sums involved maybe an account / premium bonds holding that you are jointly named on (for what it's worth, my own children have issues with me buying htem premium bonds with the money their grandmother left them as it is likely to mean that they come out of it with unequal amounts, so perhaps it's one holding that is then split on the youngest attaining 25?).

Sorry to hear about your husband and the difficult time you’ve had @ChopinandChampagne

If you need to reply to the email, I think what I’d do is to refer to having had some advice. You’ve “realised that it’s best to take time to understand the financial situation after your husband’s passing as an initial step”. You could say something like “it appears it’s not as straightforward as you had thought” or something equally vague.

Lobster Boy would buy in to that I think, you’re playing into his stereotype of the hopeless woman with his misogynistic attitude!

Then do really take the time to consider and observe the reaction to you not providing the money according to his “order”.

Before you do anything, think it through, maybe come back to this thread or start a new one.

He’s such a piece of work. I would sadly echo that your DD should very much be considered as his ally for now, maybe not so consciously but she will not go against him. More like the bully’s gang that are too happy to live with the benefits of being part of the gang, or are too scared to escape and go against it. Or can’t see that the bully is bullying them into compliance.

If they harass you about it, say you're having an assessment to see what best to do with your money and not leaving yourself short.
Keep putting it off until you're happy with your decision. And every time they ask, mentally put it back a few months.

I also think that @YoniAndGuy is spot on.

You need to play this strategically and know that they both are who they are. They have been in a v toxic and abusive relationship with each other and you for many many years.

He has a significant personality disorder and is an abusive, manipulative and exploitative man who has targeted and controlled your emotionally vulnerable DD.

Know that people like him with PDs just get worse and worse as they get older. Expect more drama and mitigate against it by emotionally protecting yourself with deep and high boundaries and emotionally withdrawing to a detached place whilst keeping a simple front for your DD1.

There is / was a lull in proceedings due to the untimely and horrifying death of your DH. But once Lobsterboy has declared that your DD has had enough time to grieve it will be back to normal. In fact you can see that even now by the latest interaction.

Anyone with a beating heart would say to someone who lost their deep love in terrible circumstances only 2 months ago - that this is a lovely gesture but not a conversation for now.

He is who he is. She is who she is. This has a long way to play out and it will not be normal happy reconciled families. I am delighted that your DH had the illusion of this when he needed it - but I worry for you and your other DDs.

None of you have even scraped the sides of grief - you have a good 4 years of deep pain ahead of you and you need to focus on yourself and your other DDs.

DD1 has the comfort and distraction of two babies and had also already pulled away emotionally from her DF for many years before - so she will not feel it like anything you and your other DDs. Know that.

You will be raw, vulnerable, exhausted and exposed. They could both do some v serious emotional harm to you all at this difficult time.

People with PD get worse. Their marriage will become more strained and their lives more bizarre. Don’t get drawn into it. Keep your emotional distance. It’s nice that the ice has been broken with your other older DD - but keep it at that - don’t go headlong into expecting a “normal” relationship with her or your DGDs.

He sees you as both an emotional threat to his v existence and sense of self and at the same time a financial pot he is entitled to exploit. He will continue to yank your chain to punish and control you through your DD.

@SoEverybodyDance also makes some v valid points about what money means in this dynamic and how it has played out over the years. I think somewhere deep down you hope that providing for your DD will keep her close and buy her respect and loyalty. But I think that the opposite is true. She needs to have the opportunity to reflect and see you as a loving mother not a cash cow. Don’t get in the way of this.

She has more than enough and you need to have a relationship that is not transactional on money and to be calm and confident that if that’s not what she wants (he wants) then you will gently withdraw.

It’s an absolute trap to keep walking on eggshells around him. Use this time to keep them at arms length so that you and your other DDs can grieve deeply and respectfully for your DH.

Don’t let these two derail you.

Be careful with the DGDs - he will use them as emotional blackmail to hurt you - this is his MO - he withdrew your DD to hurt you and he will have no qualms doing the same with DGDs. So insulate and prepare yourself for this so that you don’t fall into the trap.

Be less concerned about their toxic lives as it is triggering for you. Step back.

Put yourself and your thoughts in the healing radiant balm of the emotionally healthy people in your life. The people you have loved, encouraged and supported over the years will want to repay this to you at this time. Let them. Seek them out.

I am so sorry for all that you have endured since your DD crossed paths with this disordered dangerous loon. But know that you need to keep out of his orbit otherwise he will destroy you and the rest of your family at this v vulnerable time. He is just a maggot in the orchard of your fruitful life - contain him. Don’t let him and his antics erode and pollute you any more.

I didn't want to read and run. Chopin, you've had a truly horrendous time made worse by the entitled and selfish behaviour of LobsterBoy (I hesitate to refer to him as your SIL, because his attitude certainly doesn't merit it). Obviously, I don't know the details of your DH's will but please get some advice on the financial and tax implications TO YOU of gifting large sums of money to your GC from his/your estate. There's a basic £3,000 annual inheritance tax exemption per gift; you'd be paying tax on the remaining £7,000! Also, revise your own will and make sure you go to an accredited solicitor's firm (my own DM had horrendous advice from a non-solicitor to whom she'd been referred by a trusted financial advisor) and, seriously, make lasting powers of attorney (health and welfare/finances) so that LobsterBoy can't interfere or control what you do now or in the future. Stay strong.

OP, I’m really sorry to hear about your DH passing away and your dog as well.

I remember your threads about LB and I think Gutterton (or somebody with similar nickname) gave you excellent advice.

I think you have been warned on your last thread that building a bond with your DGDs might be used later to emotional blackmail.

I’m really sorry you have to deal with all this. Hope you have DD2 and DD3 nearby.

LB is deeply disturbed individual and DD1 might be brainwashed by him. She is in an abusive relationship with very controlling man but she’s not just a victim, she’s also a perpetrator along with her DH on the emotional abuse she dishes to you.

Please don’t get too close. You will get burnt.

Cut off the money if you can. Stick to the promise if you have to (money in trust) but you don’t have to give in to any of DD1 and LB demands. You don’t need to justify your actions either.

Wishing you good luck.

Big hug to you and 💐