SIL and money issues

[ChopinandChampagne]

I recently lost my DH and I thought that it would be nice to give some money to my DGDs, both toddlers, to set aside for their future as a gift from him. Realistically, they will not remember him, but I thought that if they have some money to spend on travel or driving lessons or to help with their university costs or whatever, they would think of him and know how much he loved them, even though he didn't live to see them grow up.

I did some internet research and the suggestions were for a Junior Isa, which a parent would need to set up, and I would then pay into, and the child could access at 18. Alternatively, a savings account, which I would be able to set up as a grandparent, as long as I produce a copy of the birth certificate, which the child can access and take over at 16.

So far, so good and, I thought, relatively uncontroversial, so I suggested it to my DD and said that I wanted to give each of the DGDs £10k from DH and the options. I said that I wanted it to be a separate account and that suggested that she open a Junior Isa or that I should open a savings account. Her response was that she would have to discuss it with SIL and I said fine, thought no more it. Then, I sense that there is a bit of tension and DD says she wants to set up a telephone call with both her and SIL one evening, to discuss the matter after the DGDs are in bed. This was a text, so I reply saying fine, is now a good time, but DD said not, but we could schedule a couple of days later, but only if she has completed her coursework for her studies.

Then, a couple of days ago, I receive an email from SIL, from whom I never hear anything direct, advising me that if I really want to put money in an account, he will open one, but that he thinks that it is a bad idea, as inflation will erode the money. He thinks I should invest it in gold bullion or some other specific account (he says he has recently opened one for DD), and he provided links to various websites.

The tone of the email comes across, not as friendly advice, but telling me what to do. I have said that I will have a rethink, but I am worried about offending him if I don't follow his advice. I feel that he is trying to control how I invest the money. He refers to it as my wanting to invest for the DGD's future, which it is partly, but it is also about wanting the DGDs to remember or be reminded of DH. I don't really want to invest in bullion, as I think it's a bit volatile, and the idea of a bank account is that the DGDs would get the bank statements and maybe learn how to save.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to handle this diplomatically? There is quite a bit of history with SIL (Lobster Boy for those who remember my previous threads), but things are on a reasonably even keel at present and I currently have a good relationship with DD, which I don't want to upset. She says that there is no rush to decide how best to invest the money, it is important to get it right.

Ivd read the whole of this thread and it has made my blood run cold.
The incident where LB announces that DD1 has ‘mental health’ issues and describing her allegedly going at him with a knife and trying to get out of a moving car, DD1s obvious forced isolation, her having to instruct him on reheating a lasagne and having to change the nappy before she left the house with you, the move to ROI, the 4th pregnancy and him not seeming to worry about that coupled with a remote property, his ‘fear’ that she will die and you will take the DGCs….she’s married to a controlling, abusive, manipulative man.

His ‘fears’ are projected - that’s what HE will do if anything ever happens to your DD1 (and I find him voicing an imagined future death UTTERLY TERRIFYING) of your DD1 ever gets up the courage to leave him. HE’s the one with a PD - projecting it onto your DD1 to try to discredit her with you snd her family and to try to control her. And frankly I’m scared for her safety - this man sees her, all of you, everyone, as props on his stage snd he’s THE GREATEST DIRECTOR OF ALL TIME.

You dong need a medium to tell you that this move isn’t her actual free choice - it’s obvious

You have described my marriage to my ex husband. All the signs are there. I hope for your DD1s and DCGCs sake that’s I’m wrong, but I don’t think so.

DD then suggested that if I spoke to or wrote to LB (I had suggested that I might send him a nice card saying that I had enjoyed the day together, happy all moving forward etc), I might mention how DH's death changed things. I was rather repulsed by this at the time, I'm not sure why

I'm not easily shocked, but that shocked me. And I'm only an outsider, reading it.
Please please keep your resolution to step back from them. Nourish yourself and the good people in your life.

Can you not see that it is still DD1 calling the shots about how @ChopinandChampagne must be/present to appease LB? DD1 knows which buttons to push and is twisting the knife.

My worry is that someone like LB always has to have someone to hate and rail against - to release and project his internal paranoia and anger - almost for him to exist. I don’t know if DD1 was also like this before she met him - or has changed and taken on his mission?

Possibly it’s relatively safe for DD1 when there are external targets of blame (as currently) but as they withdraw from society and their world closes off it might well soon be her or one of the DGC that becomes his target and the selected vessel for his toxicity.

I think that cutting off his own parents is a significant indicator in the decline in his MH.

For me, the time my blood ran coldest (there have many times) was when after a v difficult and long labour and emergency CS he dragged her out of hospital against all medical advice for her to cook his Christmas dinner. Reading back over all the LB threads over the years there are so many concerning incidents - but all fit the pattern of a deteriorating PD. He is following the script and the totality of all the incidents is revealing.

If they choose to home school it looks like they will go under the radar of any checks and balances. I suspect that your DD1 is living under extreme stress and does everything to placate him - even if she is in denial. I see that she has behaved extremely badly to you and I also see her as someone who has been gaslit. Others have a different view - none of us know for sure. However no one should ever have to suffer from or endure their abusive, toxic and manipulative behaviours.

I expect the situation will continue to deteriorate over the coming years.

Chopin I am glad that you have a really productive relationship with an excellent therapist who can support you to really actively protect yourself from LB/DD1 as well as live your own life so you are emotionally and physically strong and fulfilled by all of the other wonderful people you have in your life. You deserve so much peace and joy.

Living this way will put you in a much better position to be ready to catch DD1 if/when she falls - (if when that time comes that is want you want to do) and which you won’t be able to do if you are enmeshed, drained and ensnared in their day to day drama triangle antics. You will forever be ricocheting between the rescuer (your eyes) and the perpetrator (their eyes) - but the reality is that you will always be the expendable victim and whipping boy.

“Detached love” is the way to go. Bide your time. Save your money and energy for the future if that makes you feel better. You will need it then if you choose to engage then.

Step well back and live your life with all of the other restorative relationships you have around you.

I forgot the Christmas dinner/hospital incident.

@Justilou1 - the alternative explanation is, rather than DD1 ‘calling the shots’, she’s his puppet or she’s desperately trying to smooth things over because he rants on about her mother. I did the same - trying to smooth things over, out of fear.

@Sssloou are you a professional counsellor? You do sound as though you have a very good grasp of what’s driving this situation. Your advice is sound and constructive.
@ChopinandChampagne my heart goes out to you, I’ve read all posts on all of your threads and I’m always touched by the kindness and forgiveness shown by your late DH, and I wonder if you feel somehow obliged to continue in this vein. Where is your anger, your outrage? Lack of anger is not always your friend. Remember that DD1 was blessed, as were numbers 2 and 3, with generous, supportive and loving parents. I don’t know how much of all of this is the result of LB’s PD, DD1’s mental health or a catastrophic coming together of the two. The latter I suspect, she is certainly no innocent victim.
I think you should maintain a pleasant and polite distance from them both, offer no opinions, financial help, legal advice or practical help. I’m sure DD1 knows the door is open if she ever walks away from LB.

Concentrate on the two loving daughters who deserve your kindness and who see DD1 as being at the very least, complicit in all of this, and rightly so.

I wish you nothing but the peace and happiness you deserve.

I agree with you @Passmethefrazzles re Sssloou and her great advice to the OP.
Her posts are so insightful and appear to come from a professional background.

Thank you everyone, so much excellent advice, especially from Sssloou, as ever. I am feeling much better, thanks, but quite weak. DD2 and DD3 are with me, and DD3's boyfriend, although I have been mainly in my room as I don't want them to catch the bug!

DD1 telephoned yesterday for about 45 minutes. I asked several times if it was a good time for her and should we speak later, as the DGDs were in the background sounding quite fractious. She said it was a good time because they were on their own, having their breakfast. She always calls me when LB is not around and clearly wanted to chat. She kept telling them to be quiet, and sounded quite stressed.

They have bought a van and are planning to go to Ireland ASAP to start working on the property. She seems to think that this will be soon, probably next month, although I said it might take longer to go through the legal processes etc. She said their solicitor is very good and is waiting for a contract, from which I inferred that things haven't moved very far at all. I said that it might take a few months, as searches can take a while (although I assume that they may not be planning to do any. Those of you who read my first thread may remember that LB did not want to spend the money to carry out either a survey or local land searches). In the meantime, apparently their house is chaotic, as they have been selling most of their possessions on eBay or donating them to charity.

Anyway, the good news is that DD1 is planning to come back to the UK to give birth. She is terrified of another C section. She said it was terribly painful during the first weeks of recovery and is really worried that it might happen again. She said she knows LB will look after her and do anything for her, but he doesn't know how to cook etc. She found it so painful and difficult and frustrating not being able to do things like cooking and changing the baby.

DD's scan is today and she is planning to find out the sex of the baby. I really hope that it's a boy, not because I especially want a DGS, I would be delighted with another DGD, but because I fear that she will keep on until she has a boy, as that's clearly what LB wants. Her poor body has already been through so much. I assume things are ok with the PIL, as they are looking after the DGDs whilst they go for the scan.

I said that we are having a service on DH's birthday next month, at the same church in London where we had the funeral, when the ashes will be put in the family plot. She said she would see if she could come and clearly would like to come, although I appreciate that it might be difficult for her, because of distance and the DGDs. She obviously misses DH a lot. As one of the PPs said, he was such a lovely, forgiving man, there wasn't a bad bone in his body. The comparison between him and LB is so stark that I wonder that DD1 doesn't see it.

I have been dwelling on Sssloou's conclusion that LB needs targets to lash out against. Unfortunately, I fear that she may well be right. Some of the targets may be closer to home ie family/people known to them, and others may be further away - hence the conspiracy theories, fear of the vaccine, refusal to wear a mask etc.

However, I also think that they need a project to focus on in order to distract them. I am starting to see a pattern. The frenzy to buy that original house is being replicated. Last time, it was just before DD1's Finals, when there was all the drama, LB had DD1 driving up and down the country, some of you may recall. They had to have that particular house and they had to have it immediately, when the sensible thing would have been to have taken a step back and wait until DD1 had finished her Finals. I am sure all of the stress and distraction affected her results, and she was meant to be working on her dissertation when all of this was going on. She has said more recently that they were afraid of being homeless, but it wasn't as though either set of parents wouldn't have accommodated them.

Since then, there has always been another house or a child or a dog or a litter of dogs or some hens or quail etc. From a distance, it all seems a bit frenzied, if you see what I mean. But I am wondering how it will be when they run out of projects, surely there must be a limit to how many they can have, before they become affected by the weight of the responsibilities. I presume that they will be expecting LB's parents to look after the two properties which they already have.

Is it always significant events in DD1 life that LB "manufactures" frenzy about something new needing to happen?

Seems to me it is his way of getting all the attention focused on HIM, to the detriment of DD1.

@SpringCrocus I was just going to say the same thing. It certainly seems that any big 'life event' for DD1, such as finals or pregnancy seems to be overshadowed by something that simply 'has' to happen.

This is very common with narcissistic people, they will manufacture arguments or events to coincide with things like birthdays, special times, pregnancy, births so the attention is taken away.

I dated a narcissist and on the night before I was due to go to the celebration hearing for my dd he manufactured a huge row and kept me on the phone to discuss it until the early hours of the morning. So the following day I was exhausted and fretting about dp so couldn't enjoy the day. I noticed this started to happen on any of my 'special days'

Interesting comments spring and bigbaggyeyes and, come to think of it, you may well be right. There was some drama before DD1's graduation, with LB wanting to have one of the two allocated tickets. But there was even more drama with DD2's graduation, which LB semi sabotaged.

DD1 and DD2 were close up until then and DD2 wanted all of her family with her on the big day. She wanted everyone to support her and make a fuss of her, as they had for DD1. LB insisted that he and DD1 needed to travel together both ways (they were only an hour away by train), so could only stay a limited time, because of needing to get back for the dogs. So they turned up after the graduation (DD1 said she had watched the live streaming) and left the celebratory meal early.

There is also always an awkward atmosphere when LB is around. DD1 has since told me several times that after she got back, she just cried and cried. That was what caused the rift between DD1 and DD2, who felt that just once DD1 could have put her family first. DD2 had worked so hard and managed to get a first and instead of it being her day, it all became about LB and DD1 and the dogs. DH suggested that DD1 simply catch an earlier train and go back together with LB, who could come later. But LB didn't even consider it. He never has any respect for anyone else's opinions- in fact, he seems to enjoy being deliberately obstructive.

LB never makes a fuss of DD1. He doesn't buy her gifts or flowers, even on her birthday. He doesn't do anything for her on Mother's Day. For their marriage, he booked the cheapest slot, which was in the next county, first thing on a Monday morning, without any sort of ceremony, just signing the papers. LB couldn't even remember the date when they eventually told us about it.

DD1 has come round to LB's way of thinking, that she doesn't need all of the consumerism etc, which is fine so far as it goes. But she doesn't seem to be given any choice in these things. I know that she would have liked her family with her when she got married, but LB wouldn't permit it.

They are very fond of other people's money and property, despite disliking consumerism.

Are they planning to register for healthcare in Ireland? The NHS is residence based so your daughter may have to pay to give birth here.

Maybe they are planning a drive over the border to Enniskillen or wherever, to use NHS services (saving money), LB will wait in the carpark with the DGCs and then drive home after the birth, so that DD1 can resume childcare and cooking responsibilities.

Hey OP,
I rarely comment, but I have been reading since the start (awhile now!) and see all the excellent advice you get from others, especially @Sssloou I wholeheartedly agree that this is a marathon, not a sprint where the ‘end’ or ‘her seeing the light’ is not guaranteed. I thought her comment about building a life for yourself, in which you are not dependant or emotionally rocked by news from them - good or bad - is your goal. They are like neighbours you used to live next door to 10 years ago. You’re interested to hear what they are doing, of course, but whatever they decide to do - move, homeschool, join the circus - is of interest, but then you out the phone down, return to your life that matters, and think “I must pick some flowers before it rains, get the joint out of the freezer to defrost for lunch, book those theatre tickets online before I forget again and make the bed up in the spare room as DD3 is coming down for the weekend” and you get up and go and the conversation is left there……only to be recalled when there is another call or text “yes, yes, now tell me again, how is the circus hunting going? Fabulous, good to hear”.

The reason I am comment now is just two things. I thought you might benefit from someone far away with no emotional connection spotting a pattern. And that is despite your hopes and opinion as to minuscule changes and that DD1 needs you more - she doesn’t. When you wrote she asked you for the £30,000 and then again to forge the signature, I knew it was exactly the same. She sees you as someone who owes her these huge things. I know there is a quibble over whether it is her or LB who is influencing her, but really, at this point and until she decides to leave him, it doesn’t matter which it is, because she is still choosing (by staying with him) that it be her.

The second thing that shook me was the request to forge the signature. I am a solicitor and I remember reading both you and your husband were in the same profession. This is huge to us. This is a criminal offence, but to us it is professional credibility, loss of the ability to practice. It’s also the hypocritical nature of it all - how can we advise people and submit in court about breaking the law, if we have no respect for it ourselves? I’m sure you feel this way too, and I don’t need to say all this, but this cut me to the quick. More than money, more than anything was the casual dishonesty that she wanted you to take part in, when your (and your husbands!) whole professional life had been about advising on the law. As if you would throw it away so quickly for a signature that they could have obtained in different ways (his parents?) or by waiting 24 hours. They would prefer to possibly put you through all that professionally, that than mend something petty fight that they were probably having with LB’s parents.

I just wanted to say I felt the outrageousness of the request on your behalf. And it showed - they have not changed at all. There was just nothing to ask you for before.

@Gh0stontoast

Maybe they are planning a drive over the border to Enniskillen or wherever, to use NHS services (saving money), LB will wait in the carpark with the DGCs and then drive home after the birth, so that DD1 can resume childcare and cooking responsibilities.

I don't think that's allowed. Any MNetters in Ireland shed light?

But OP said she was planning to 'come back to the UK' so I assumed back to where they are now. There used to be an EU scheme for giving birth abroad but I assume no more because Brexit.

Unless they're planning just not to tell their UK health service provider that they've moved, which would probably be fraudulent.

OP you're running out of thread...

Need a new thread asap @ChopinandChampagne, you've only 6 posts available here!

Here here @FollowYourOwnNorthStar

Thank you everyone, especially NorthStar, for your posts. Yes, I am a retired lawyer and want no involvement in anything remotely shady and yes, DD1 should have thought of that. But she didn't.

I am conscious that the thread is about to run out, but feel that everyone has been so kind, and that maybe I have trespassed on your time and kindness long enough, so I am not sure about starting another thread. But I am so, so grateful for all of the generous support which you have given me during such a difficult period in my life. I can't tell you what a difference it has made to me. Thank you!!!

PS In the meantime, DD1 has just texted me to say that the scan went well and that she is expecting a boy.

I think taking a massive step back is the right thing to do. You do not need to be involved in the minutiae of a person's life in order to demonstrate your love for them.

I appreciate that there will be many issues with their intended move (and all their various projects), but those are their issues, not yours. Let them worry about contracts and house moves and hospitals etc. They are adults. You cannot fix their problems. You cannot fix their relationship, and you cannot fix your relationship with your DD on your own-she has to meet you halfway in order for that to happen.

Focus on your own life and your own needs, and leave them to it. If they want to live in the past then let them. If they want to create more drama then let them find another punching bag. None of this is your responsibility.

Just want to echo what JonahofArk said, and to add that you are obviously a genuine and lovely person.

Take time to nourish yourself, to grieve for your husband and to accept the support of all the good people in your life.

Common Travel Agreement means UK and ROI citizens have access to reciprocal healthcare in each country. So an Irish citizen coming to the UK could give birth without being charged and vice versa. It isn't affected by Brexit.

Need a new thread!

@ChopinandChampagne
I have read your other thread which is full.
I was thinking of you and your daughters and hoping you are ok.
I'm living in Ireland as you know from the other thread and was wondering how your dd1 is getting on here.