What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

There used to be an old toothless man in my town who was well known mong the locals. He would ask every single woman he walked past if she would have sex with him. Obviously he got turned down most (all?) of the time but seeing as there were no consequences for him and he clearly was not at all embarrassed, he probably thought he had nothing to lose. I think a lot of men on OLD have the same approach!

I hate that women think only men are brave. Seriously. Think about your language. Men have balls, women don't. Saying I don't have the balls means I'm not man enough. Like with ball ache. It's all keeping the men are better narrative going

Fifteentoes
‘
Now this is something I don't understand, and the same language keeps being used so if anyone can clarify -

How does the fact of a man wanting younger women, or even chasing younger women, mean that he feels entitled to younger women?’

The entitlement part that people are referring to in men is quite different to just wanting and ice cream . It comes through in the way they stare at women much younger as if they have a chance , consume porn made by them for them , buy brides from overseas , harass younger women who are clearly not interested , ‘trade in’ the wife once she’s no longer useful or valuable in their eyes because of age
Wanting was not a strong enough word . It’s about them feeling it’s their due. That women are commodities who’s youth and appearance is all that counts and that what they offer is not important or relevant . Of course they can want away all they like , most don’t get it
It’s a mentality and yea men have chased younger women since before the internet . It’s true women simply didn’t have the same economic and social power throughout history and a dirty year old marrying a 12 year old has been considered normal in many cultures . I think if we are going to start saying this is about nature and men just want youth then it becomes concerning that men seem to want to marry such young females . This poses a question about men and what they sexual preferences cut off , which is worrying personally think it’s been a conditioned and cultural phenomenon , however some aggrieved it’s just ‘natural ‘ for men to chase youth
If this is the case why have men been so willing to marry such young girls throughout history . Are they ok with any female so long as she is fertile .
Not a place my mind wants to go

@coronaway

I just tell them to get lost *@arethereanyleftatall* then block them - I assume they get the hint

@Countingthebeat ah I think we probably differ on how much nature and how much nuture plays a role but that has been done to death and I don't want to stray too far from the original topic.

It's a shame I'm not into casual flings as I'd happily fill the cougar role when I'm older I think if more of us are into that we should go for it!

Yea Corona , I think we do see the nature / nurture question differently . As I mention in my post above if one says it’s about nature then it raises some really concerning questions about men and their preference ‘for youth’ especially when we look back over history and what men have chose to do without any restraints . Men don’t have a radar saying when a female turns from a guild to a woman and puberty is a long way from adulthood yet many of us are physically developed at that stage but yes I think your right it’s a little off topic . I just wanted to note that and how I think it makes a lot of women uncomfortable , especially when it comes to the way men behave. .personally I think it’s mostly conditioned as you know just like we are conditioned not to expect women to search teen boys in porn or as someone mentioned the difference in how people respond to macrons marriage than to trumps

Also to add that another example of socialisation is the difference in lots of our language . Take the word cougar for example . Cougars are predatory . I only recently heard a friend joke to a young guy that he better watch out for a woman who is a ‘cougar ‘they may dress seductively but the word it’self does not imply that they are attractive or desirable partners , especially not long term . After all they are older women , sex crazed etc
Now look at ten term silver Fox that describes an older man who’s hair has greyed but is desirable , slick and good looking . He’s the type of man women want as a partner . Someone worthy and a quality older partner . What would be the equivalent of this to de sine a quality older good lookimg and greying woman who people
Waantws as partners
Language shapes us and this is just one very small example

The main problem is that men and women are different .One is not better than the other.Finding someone compatible is very very difficult.I know some middle aged women who stay with their .male partners because it’s easier .Starting again in your late forties is daunting.

Porn (as mentioned many times)- free, 24/7 access to violent, aggressive porn is a social behemoth. Men (and certainly women as well) have been conditioned to think that traumatic sex with women half their age is 'normal' and arousing, something to aspire to. All sorts of terrible behaviour towards women has been normalised, as has relentlessly accessing porn. How many times have I heard, "It ain't no thing. All guys do it," by other women. The cool brigade on MN have been pounding that drum for years... how dare you, random female poster, show such intolerance and narrow-mindedness towards your man. How uncool you are, 'controlling' your DH (the one who is no longer having sex with his wife) and finding his use of porn, specifically violent porn which he has accessed while the kids are home from school during half term ('cause that's really healthy!), upsetting. What's wrong with you, his wife? Who do you think you are, controlling your DH's right to access and view the very thing he'd kill a man for were that his own daughter being gang banged?

There's so much blame thrust on the woman's shoulders for her partner's abhorrent behaviour. I've seen it time and time and time and time again. Go back and search "Caught DH watching porn" threads and you'll see the way that movie ends- with the female poster being made to feel redundant, invalid, unreasonable, controlling, possessive- SHE'S the one with the issues (never mind the fact that she's been pinned into the corner of a dead bedroom by her partner because he can only get it up for some 18-year-old chick on a screen with a gag in her mouth and a cock up her ass). The woman is burnt at the MN stake by other women who condone the male-driven normalisation of violent porn. You can't holler 'respect me' if you can't give it. This agenda has worked out PERFECTLY. Thank you, Fabian Thylmann, et al.
Double standards. Women must, when it comes to porn, back this horse: Other women should not ever have to tolerate a partner's viewing of violent porn. Women cannot be ok with violent porn. The moment you are doing that as a woman, you are part of this male-driven problem, actively part of it. You no longer have a right to call yourself a feminist or to be a voice for my sons and daughter. It is a societal disaster for our daughters and sons that needs an absolute sledgehammer approach to its end. Because there is no way society can continue on a healthy trajectory of equality while the debasing of women is the all-access-out-there-for-all-the-world-to-see-and-abuse norm.

Women are writing songs like WAP for our sons and daughters to listen to and then bringing the strip club onto primetime TV (I'm referring to the Grammy awards this year, which kicked off at 5pm on TV in California, where I am originally from. 5 fucking PM?! What watershed?). Kids can view porn easily on the same phone their daddy's swiping his cummy hands on. So, you tell me... what are we going to do about it? I don't know where to begin. How to start the demolision of this absolute shit situation men and women have gotten themselves into is beyond me.
And spare me the 'we've always had porn' claptrap.
We haven't faced the Goliath that is Pornhub and its ilk.

@TheVanguardSix

Porn (as mentioned many times)- free, 24/7 access to violent, aggressive porn is a social behemoth. Men (and certainly women as well) have been conditioned to think that traumatic sex with women half their age is 'normal' and arousing, something to aspire to. All sorts of terrible behaviour towards women has been normalised, as has relentlessly accessing porn. How many times have I heard, "It ain't no thing. All guys do it," by other women. The cool brigade on MN have been pounding that drum for years... how dare you, random female poster, show such intolerance and narrow-mindedness towards your man. How uncool you are, 'controlling' your DH (the one who is no longer having sex with his wife) and finding his use of porn, specifically violent porn which he has accessed while the kids are home from school during half term ('cause that's really healthy!), upsetting. What's wrong with you, his wife? Who do you think you are, controlling your DH's right to access and view the very thing he'd kill a man for were that his own daughter being gang banged?

There's so much blame thrust on the woman's shoulders for her partner's abhorrent behaviour. I've seen it time and time and time and time again. Go back and search "Caught DH watching porn" threads and you'll see the way that movie ends- with the female poster being made to feel redundant, invalid, unreasonable, controlling, possessive- SHE'S the one with the issues (never mind the fact that she's been pinned into the corner of a dead bedroom by her partner because he can only get it up for some 18-year-old chick on a screen with a gag in her mouth and a cock up her ass). The woman is burnt at the MN stake by other women who condone the male-driven normalisation of violent porn. You can't holler 'respect me' if you can't give it. This agenda has worked out PERFECTLY. Thank you, Fabian Thylmann, et al.
Double standards. Women must, when it comes to porn, back this horse: Other women should not ever have to tolerate a partner's viewing of violent porn. Women cannot be ok with violent porn. The moment you are doing that as a woman, you are part of this male-driven problem, actively part of it. You no longer have a right to call yourself a feminist or to be a voice for my sons and daughter. It is a societal disaster for our daughters and sons that needs an absolute sledgehammer approach to its end. Because there is no way society can continue on a healthy trajectory of equality while the debasing of women is the all-access-out-there-for-all-the-world-to-see-and-abuse norm.

Women are writing songs like WAP for our sons and daughters to listen to and then bringing the strip club onto primetime TV (I'm referring to the Grammy awards this year, which kicked off at 5pm on TV in California, where I am originally from. 5 fucking PM?! What watershed?). Kids can view porn easily on the same phone their daddy's swiping his cummy hands on. So, you tell me... what are we going to do about it? I don't know where to begin. How to start the demolision of this absolute shit situation men and women have gotten themselves into is beyond me.
And spare me the 'we've always had porn' claptrap.
We haven't faced the Goliath that is Pornhub and its ilk.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I have noticed that with the men I am meeting now late thirties and forties that they were probably always crap and that is why they are single whilst the married/partnered men are generally much better and probably always were so got snapped up quickly by women ready for commitment much earlier than I was. Saying that one or two of my friends husbands give off the vibe that if they had the opportunity to cheat they would, one famously told his now wife when they first get to know one another that he liked her personality but she was too fat and he found her unattractive. He still cheated on his then girl friend with her though.

@Crimeismymiddlename does the same go for us single 30/40s women too?

As someone else said - men and women on the whole want different things and respond differently. Now I'm older I find it easier to see this. When I was young I'd be swept away in the romance of it all and not be aware of what was really going on.

[quote coronaway]@Crimeismymiddlename does the same go for us single 30/40s women too?

As someone else said - men and women on the whole want different things and respond differently. Now I'm older I find it easier to see this. When I was young I'd be swept away in the romance of it all and not be aware of what was really going on.[/quote]
I think so. I just only see men romantically, but I am sure that people that date women think the same thing-single people who are slightly older are single for a reason. Personally, due to fact I enjoy my independence my standards are far higher than they were in my twenties, when I was not mature enough to settle. I have to be very aware my go to type is not up to those standards. It has been an eye opening few years!

TheVanguardSix

An excellent post.

.

@TheVanguardSix Good post.

I'ts actually frightening to think how the future will be.
Apart from actual selfishness of the male species being naturally more selfish due to their physical speriority, how hard will it be for the female species to keep the "family" as a unit viable.
It seems governments are more interested in keeping men occupied.
They don't care how they do that, contant porn with very little cencorship, gambling family money away, endless entertainment whilst more and more work goes overseas being outsourced to poorer industrialising countries.
Many civilised countries are now occupied with media, but we must be concerned what media promotes healthy envioroments.
All this falls back to women, it is the women are suffering and they are brainwashed into thinking it's progress, it is not.
Porn and and the use of dating sites and social media makes it virtually impossible to keep men from thinking it is in some way expected of them to not be monogamous.
The answer? ...... God knows , the only thing I can think of is an alternative way of the family unit existing.
Suggestions please for the girls of the future.

As long as men have a penis and a woman has a vagina and someone wants kids then hey, what can we do about it. Or he's got a bigger salary. Why else do we need men?
Equally, why do men want women? I dunno. Interesting.

'what is wrong with men' that's a very gender specific question. I don't like to generalise, but it is a general question.

This is very complex... So I'm going to re phrase the question, 'why do men behave in some questionable ways?'

Why does anyone behave is questionable ways?

They may not have the healthiest coping mechanisms for life in general. They may not even have emotional understanding.

This could stem from a 'certain' upbringing. Something to ponder... How many people are enlightened enough to truly understand them selves, what has impacted them and how this explains their behaviour?

I'd say there are few of these people, most people in my experience and mine only, float through life, live on automatic without really thinking much deeper.

So in the case of women being potentially unhappy with the men they've met / dated.

Have these men not learnt to emotionally connect with themselves and understand life and the psych on a deeper level? Probably not, because with that comes empathy, understanding and a healthy relationship.

A lot of men seem to have things handed to them from the day they were born, while following the general expectations of society... I. E job, move to own home, have a relationship, end a relationship so on so forth.

But when do they have time to really look at them selves and their lives, do they really care? Probably little.

If they 'want' a relationship do they really know how to be in one, work with another on a deeper level? It's questionable.

With a lack of psychological research (when these men were growing up) probably being a contributing factors. How were people to know they even had 'problems', problems that could raise emotionally shut off men.

Maybe this could change, but in all fairness I think media has ruined that. Not only what it portrays but how it can easily ' shut off' any deeper parts of ourselves we could have come to know.

P. S there seems to be a lack of spark/fire in the world.

with little responsibility

I've been single for 5 years, late 40's with an 11 yr old. I have gone from the "I MUST have someone in my life" to "OLD is far too much like hard work and I'm better off by myself". I have learnt a great deal about myself and about men in this time.

I do think men are generally more fragile than we are led to believe/or they make us believe. I do think that this fragility is something to do with the higher number of suicide rates. Some men have great difficulty expressing themselves and are seen as weak by doing so. I think many men create a bravado/impression of themselves to over come this. I also believe that men of my age, still expect the woman to be at home like their mums were when they were growing up.

I am divorced and my XH pays an agreed amount. It was based loosely on the calculator, but I appreciate that whilst he has our DD 3 days out of 7, he has to provide a home and days out too. I really struggle with women who money grab from their XH's through maintenance. Both parents are responsible for looking after their children. It cost on average, pre covid about £200 to "run" our DD with after school clubs, school dinners, clothes etc. During covid, these expenses weren't there and I returned a large amount of this maintenance. I wasn't spending it either, so why should he? He spent most of last year caring for our DD during the day, while I worked full time as a key worker. But I have bigger concerns about the dads who don't pay any maintenance, stop working so they don't have to pay anything to maintain their children. That's pure hatred of their child's mum and is a diabolical role model.

I am definitely not anywhere on a bi-sexual spectrum. I am 100% straight. The reason I have been on a dating site on and off for 5 years, isn't because there is anything wrong with me. It's the fact that I know what I want. Someone who is reasonably good looking, with a good career, sense of humour and who lives in a nice area, similar to myself. These men are very hard to find. But I also suspect that the good men also realise that OLD isn't great and are happily by themselves pursuing hobbies and meeting outside, so for now, when covid is over, I'm going to pursue hobbies and enjoy myself with friends and not bother looking.

I do have issues with dating sites. Some men use them for ego boosts. Some use them to obtain sex, often by lying to get it. I have discovered catfish, scammers and lots of married men on these sites. I understand that women are no better either from speaking with men. I also have real issues with exes too, who didn't treat me well enough in the first instance, that I let them go. There have been a good few during lockdown and despite me blocking them, they've popped up in new places...like my work e-mail! Despite sweet talking the only sure thing about them, is that they were expecting a sure thing!

Despite OLD, I still think that there are lovely men. I sit next to one every day. I am sure that eventually I will meet someone lovely who I could have a long lasting relationship with.

Oh and I enjoy porn and vibrators too, because ONS don't really do it for me. But this hasn't made me a dysfunctional selfish bitch who treats others badly.

Wow I’m yet to meet one woman who ‘ money grabs m through maintainence . Yet I repeatedly came across ken who hid earnings to avoid paying child support
Surely you’re not referring to women who are accessing their half of the marital assets as money grabbing ?

Sorry but I’m confused as to how money grabbing works . Where I live at least child support amounts are actually calculated by the government according to incomes and care percentages . Getting the non paying parent to actually pay that amount seems to be the main issue

@Washingtofold..... I agree

Ken sounds a right bastard.

[quote Onthedunes]@Washingtofold..... I agree

Ken sounds a right bastard.[/quote]
and Fred and Tom and .... all the pricks who don’t pay the proper child support

I've given up trying to find someone nice. I thought my last husband was the one but he turned out to be a porn obssessed pervert who wanted to go swinging and get into BDSM which he ran off and did when I said no.
Every man I meet seems to only care about porn and sex and not interested in anything lovely or fun.
i don't know what's happened to men.

I do think selection bias is an issue here. Mumsnet Relationships is a gathering place for disillusioned women who reinforce each others narratives.