What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

"But what do you not know about?" "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

This.

For years I put my husband on a pedestal thinking he was different to most other men (in a good way) then discovered 'a secret'. Not that big in the grand scale of things but enough to shatter my respect for him and trust.

I am doubtful if I split from my husband that I would ever enter a serious relationship again (late 40's). I have daughters and I honestly fear for their happiness in terms of future relationships etc.

@TonMoulin thank you.

@EmmeG I'm afraid I agree with @coronaway your husband is not one of the good guys, but I'm not sure you think so anyway, I think maybe you were meaning HE thinks he is? I think there are a significant number of men who think they're good guys simply because they're not overtly abusive but of course there's a lot more to it than that

I don't know what the answer is for those older women who don't wish to remain single.

For me, I'm basically happy being single.

No "status" is perfect, even a relationship with a genuinely good man will have its ups and downs and women aren't perfect either (I'm bi relationships with women have different challenges)

But I still don't think anyone should settle for a bad relationship or a relationship with a bad person, Singledom will always be preferable to that.

I hope I've got that through to dd too, I think I have. A fair amount of her female friends seem to "panic" if they're not in a relationship and as a result put up with shit relationships with shit men far too often. It's a discussion she's had with them frequently. Whereas she has had long periods (for her age ) or being single because she won't put up with crappy treatment.

I don't think the idea of restricting themselves to casual emotionless sex is that appealing for a lot of women either. There are plenty of sites set up to facilitate this and the men always outnumber women by orders of magnitude.

I think there's an element of truth there that women aren't interested in casual encounters BUT I don't think that's the only reason women don't go down this route.

It's something I have done and has suited me at times and I honestly think that for some women the reason they don't go this route isn't because it wouldn't suit them but fear of discovery and the negative judgment they would get for it. I certainly don't advertise the fact in real life because another feature of patriarchy is the shaming of women who do participate in and enjoy casual sex.

What I have found very interesting is that the men I've met through these sites are actually a lot more socially savvy and respectful in their communications than those on "normal" dating sites, when discussing sexual interests and practices they're genuinely interested in what the woman is interested in and gives her pleasure. I don't know if it's because the communication is more open and honest, if it's because the men DO far outnumber the women so they KNOW they have to make an effort or if it's because the women on such sites tend to be very clear and assertive about what they will and won't put up with right from what they put on profiles - which I think would not be allowed on "normal" dating sites (eg "no dick pics as first message" or "not interested in rough stuff")

On "normal" dating sites the women tend to outnumber the men which may give the men the sense they can get away with more? Because they think women are "desperate"?

And it's not just in initial communications either, the men I've actually gone ahead and met with and even had longer term arrangements were all polite, well mannered, considerate and generous lovers. Even if upon meeting there was no attraction on my part (you never really know until you meet in real life) and I've said so they've been absolutely fine and taken the rejection gracefully (as have I when the reverse has occurred)

This is contrary to all too many times on "normal" dating sites where I've received vile messages including threats upon simply messaging things like "don't think we've much in common" or "sorry not my type but wish you well" and even when I've met and we've not clicked I've had them basically say "well what about just a shag then" or insults and threats again. I mean wtf!

I'm not saying ALL the members on the casual sex sites are "gentlemen" but generally speaking it's the newer and younger members that are arses!

I think another reason why they tend to be better is because the people running/moderating them are better too. If a member is reported for being a dick they're instantly barred and giving others a heads up ISN'T a problem - whereas on "normal" dating sites this isn't allowed.

They're also ime more on the ball at spotting barred members trying to get back on with different emails etc

Also the men are generally more realistic about the women they'll attract too! Hard not to be realistic when photos are more revealing

When the balance of power shifts men do appear to recognise this and adjust accordingly. If we applied this to wider society things could well be very different.

But as I said before women cannot do it alone if only because we are only half the population, we need the men who think they're good men to actually be good men and step up properly.

Your experience on more casual arrangements is interesting @Graphista although women outnumbering men on normal dating sites is false. As far as I'm aware men typically outnumber women on all the dating sites, often by large margins (10/1 etc). This should make us choosier although I think it's very difficult to judge online.

*If you're going to be messed around or just want casual, you might as well get it from a younger man than an old goat. But don't write off younger men for more serious relationships.

I literally know a single mother of 4 in her forties who married a wealthy aristocrat. However, he was in his sixties (although one of the few good looking ones who had kept in shape), and he talks non-stop about herself (although she doesn't mind that). I know several women with decent guys 7-8 years younger than them too.

The thing is, even for casual relationships, you need a fairly decent man who is respectful and can hold down a conversation and not cheat, etc..

I think its better to be single than with some no-hoper who is making you miserable. Not lest because it might prevent you from meeting someone decent. It also makes you look less desirable if you're with someone who obviously isn't that desirable a man.

And OLD is full of men who spend too much time on OLD, so I avoid anyone who does OLD. I met current bf on a language summer school abroad, and a lot of wealthy, intelligent people do attend this sort of thing. Cruises are probably good as well, especially special interest ones. Sports coaching holidays, like ski-ing or tennis. Although I avoid ceroc/salsa/spinning/gym classes as the men you meet there tend to be the multishagger type deliberately targetting a female dominated hobby.

I went on OLD for 2 weeks and I was really shocked by how bad the standard was.*

An old goat! 😂 I agree. But I'm not looking for any kind of relationship let alone a serious one. I wouldn't "write off" a man based on age if I was, but I'm not. I'm very happy as I am. Yes I agree even a FWB needs to be intelligent enough to hold a decent conversation, have a sense of humour and flirt, as well as being good in bed, otherwise why bother? I could just hang out with my friends if there is no excitement. I'm not sure what you mean though about someone in casual relationships like that needing to "not cheat". How could they cheat? A FWB is not exclusive so I don't get that. Do you mean not being a liar?

I will not be doing OLD. 😂 I am happy on my own and a man would have to really impress me to change my mind and make me interested in dating. I have no worries about ending up shacked up with a "no hoper". As for meeting intelligent people on cruises, a highly doubt it! I cannot think of a worse place to find someone capable if intellectual conversation or capable of turning my head.

@Graphista
I'm not too surprised by your experiences. I think a lot of common bad dating etiquette is due to men who think that women would not choose them solely for sex providing an implicit promise of something more that they either never intended to fulfill or lose the desire to fulfill after sex.

It makes sense that these men would behave better if their "goal" was the woman's goal too.

I'm interested to hear what you mean by:
"we need the men who think they're good men to actually be good men and step up properly."?

I suspect that if the world were organised like Fabswingers, it wouldn't necessarily be a positive move for women. Do you mean this in another context?

‘I'm interested to hear what you mean by:
"we need the men who think they're good men to actually be good men and step up properly’

I’m not the author of that but could t agree more
Plenty of men support porn sites that distribute horrible material and don’t care less . They use the excuse that because ‘ these are not the particular videos they are accessing on that site ‘ their porn use is fine
. However if is predominately men who use these sites and they are the ones allowing them to continue to exist. Whilst men continue to think their penis is more important than women’s dignity or safety there is an issue
Men who are blind to gender issues and refuse to learn about them and call themselves ‘ good men ‘ are the ones being refered to I believe
Men go refuse to look at their male privilege
I’ve literally seen men deny they even have privilege .
It would take them five minutes to site down and research the the many many privileges they have as men however they don’t care less to and still call themselves ‘good men ‘ some even saying things like ‘ I don’t care because I’m not interested in men’s issues ‘

@Countingthebeat

Men go refuse to look at their male privilege

You go take a mains powered vibrator to that thought...

[quote DoWahDiddy]@Countingthebeat

Men go refuse to look at their male privilege

You go take a mains powered vibrator to that thought...[/quote]
Are your trying to say a vibrator is wuaicalebtbyo the systemic oppression and degradation of women or porn. You realise men also have sex toys don’t you ?
Sorry if I’m missing your point but it’s not really clear

[quote DoWahDiddy]@Countingthebeat

Men go refuse to look at their male privilege

You go take a mains powered vibrator to that thought...[/quote]
Oh right yeah just saw some of your other mysogynistic posts . Got hay . Yeah sure women’s vibratory are equivalent to men’s sex dolls , yoga etc
Now tell me what’s equivalent to the male privilege you try to gloss over
You’re a prime example of one who tries to call yourself a good guy but doesn’t look at your male privilege . You clearly have an issue with porn and that’s clear from your other posts . Not worth engaging with

Going back to the original question of this post , a huge part of the problem is how men , many of whom charade as good guys will immediately attempt to intimidate and sexualise and situation thag women raise issue with exactly as what just happened with DoWahDIddy.
I raise male privilege and the next thing yoh know he’s telling me to go get a mains powered vibrator. Men simply seem unable to relate to women as human beings and certainly are unprepared to even consider the idea that they have any thing to listen to . The unmediately negate women and them objectify them
This happens time and time again when women confront men and even when women are just going about their business . Harassment on dating platforms , unwanted dick pics , Somme at on appearance , telling us to go do sexual acts

*comments on appearance

we need the men who think they're good men to actually be good men and step up properly

Had an interesting discussion the other day with dh and my older teen boys.
We were talking about porn and the fact Visa still doesnt let Pornhub using them. and then went on about the issue of consent and rape.
I was mentioning that 40% of women under 40 have been chocked during sex wo their consent. I said this was rape.
I also mentioned the fact many men think they are good guys but actually arent. eg having sex with a woman who is completely drunk and cant give consent. This is rape.

My two teens were looking at me with wide eyes and clearly unsettled (tough!) at the idea that yes being on pornhub is basically watching a woman ben raped and/or underage sex. Also uncomfortable and surprised at the idea of sex with someone who is drunk etc... is rape.
H... well started to go on about its just drunken behaviour and the like...

If you asked H he would say he is a fantastic father because he cooks all the meals and does some housework. He is also, hold tigh, taking his own dcs with him when he is doing his hobby!
But the reality ... like many men deep in patriarchy, he isnt and still doesnt consider women to be equals and to be respected.

It also made me wonder...
40% of women who have been chocked wo consent...

Does it mean that about 40% of men are rapist???

That sort of thing should be talked about in PSHE at school. Again and again. UNtil the meaning of consent is truly understood, by both men and women (too many women who think they cant say NO or think it wasnt bad, and don't recognise some actions for what it is. Because most people still associate rape wioth the stranger in alleyway)

I’ve literally seen men deny they even have privilege

Yep that was (is?) H. Years of going on about it has iproved things but....
And in some ways this is also my own teens. because they don't seem to see what the reality of being a woman actually is. They are priviledged no doubt. They are also still young with little life experience.

But what is depressing is that the overall message is still so engrained that they would rather still believe this is the case (no issue, all equals blablabla) rather than me believe me and my own experience as a woman.

I'm not sure we can ever really expect men to fully understand what life is like as a woman though (and vice versa).

Still doesn't consider women to be equals
I think this is because society is largely patriarchal and men are raised with the background assumption that no matter what happens you can at least rely on the fact that all women are subordinate to you. That men are the 'real' people and women are just accessories.
This male superiority is the bedrock of the ego structure, without it they are completely undermined.

@coronaway

I'm not sure we can ever really expect men to fully understand what life is like as a woman though (and vice versa).

Nope but at least acknowledging the experience would be a first step. Not dismissing it.

As a mum, realising that despite all my efforts my two dcs are just as misogynistic than their dad/society and show no minor acceptance of our daily realities hurts. And makes me very sad.

Not to deny any of this of course, but there may be something simpler at play as well: People don't generally care and think about other people's situations as much as they do about their own. Regardless of gender. If you asked your teenage sons about an issue specifically affected African men, or disabled men, or North Korean men living under communism, you'd probably get a similar scratching of the head, lack of understanding and half-hearted, if any, thoughts about gaining such understanding in the future.

That doesn't excuse it of course, and human decency depends on us all making the effort to overcome these various barriers and see things from others' point of view. My point is only that the fact of men not doing this in relation to issues affecting women is not unique or even unusual, and doesn't necessarily mean that they see women as inferior, unimportant or not fully human. All it means is that we all tend to see other people as less important than ourselves. Not that we would articulate it that way, but the fact is we wake up in the morning and immediately start thinking about all the challenges facing our individual life, and working out ways to deal with them - not thinking about the challenges facing every other individual on the planet.

Maybe some men think women are innately inferior and their experience therefore doesn't matter. I don't think most do.

Isn’t that overcomplicating it? The issue is really that some men sexualise and make sexual comments to women on the assumption that she must receive them. This always happened but generally men who did this were considered creeps and best avoided - and this was also something other men agreed with. The mainstream use of hardcore has changed that - a lot more men are keen to believe the lies behind pornography and test women to see if they accept them too; this destroys relationships in many cases because porn isn’t about relating, it’s about sex acts. It’s a very stunted way to relate another human being.

@ LexMitior -

The problem seems to be that a lot of men don't see their making of a sexual approach as an imposition upon the person they're approaching. It's simply an offer: if the other person doesn't want to take it up, all they have to do is say no.

This may be partly understandable in something like online dating where the possibility of sex IS there in the background as part of the process, there are just different perceptions of how to get there and how long it should take! It's obviously unforgivable when it comes to things like catcalling strangers on the street.

I was only saying, in relation to previous comments, that I don't think this is because men think women are inferior or less fully human. Actually I can give a specific reason why I think that: In my younger days, as an attractive but entirely straight young man, I got a lot of similar unsolicited (and unwanted) attention from gay men. Obviously gay men have to be careful in most social settings not to make an approach that's going to get them beaten up or whatever, but I found that once I was in a situation where gay people were accepted and safe, they were often brazen, insensitive and unwilling to take no for an answer. All the things women are complaining about here.

I think it's not so much that men think women are inferior, as that some men are so obsessed with their dicks they struggle to think about anything or anyone else at the same time.

@TonMoulin

It also made me wonder... 40% of women who have been chocked wo consent...

Does it mean that about 40% of men are rapist???

That sort of thing should be talked about in PSHE at school. Again and again. UNtil the meaning of consent is truly understood, by both men and women (too many women who think they cant say NO or think it wasnt bad, and don't recognise some actions for what it is. Because most people still associate rape wioth the stranger in alleyway)

Completely agree with this.

And when is this society going to have a proper conversation about how porn is fuelling all this rape and other degrading sexual behaviour towards women??

I'm sick to the back teeth of people (including many women who should be ashamed of themselves) sweeping the seriousness of porn under the carpet. If the sexes were reversed and it was primarily men suffering all these horrendous effects, you can bet they'd be all kinds of investigations/pressure on parliament/ strict laws coming into effect etc.

It's part of the reason why true equality for women may never be achieved. A lot of women themsleves will do anything not to question the "needs" of men, to pander to them, and to hell if other women suffer and are objectified/subjugated, as long as they can claim to be "liberal" or the "cool" girlfriend/wife.

@FifteenToes

@ LexMitior -

The problem seems to be that a lot of men don't see their making of a sexual approach as an imposition upon the person they're approaching. It's simply an offer: if the other person doesn't want to take it up, all they have to do is say no.

This may be partly understandable in something like online dating where the possibility of sex IS there in the background as part of the process, there are just different perceptions of how to get there and how long it should take! It's obviously unforgivable when it comes to things like catcalling strangers on the street.

I was only saying, in relation to previous comments, that I don't think this is because men think women are inferior or less fully human. Actually I can give a specific reason why I think that: In my younger days, as an attractive but entirely straight young man, I got a lot of similar unsolicited (and unwanted) attention from gay men. Obviously gay men have to be careful in most social settings not to make an approach that's going to get them beaten up or whatever, but I found that once I was in a situation where gay people were accepted and safe, they were often brazen, insensitive and unwilling to take no for an answer. All the things women are complaining about here.

I think it's not so much that men think women are inferior, as that some men are so obsessed with their dicks they struggle to think about anything or anyone else at the same time.

Interesting that you say that, because I often feel that some men are so crude in their approach to women that they don't know (my short experience on internet dating) that their approach would be better suited to other men!

I mean, it must be a pretty unsuccessful approach with the vast majority of women and result in a lot of rejection and their being blocked or ghosted (which is something men complain of all the time on OLD - "she just stopped talking to me") but they don't seem to learn from it. I would never use OLD again because so many men are just so disrespectful and forward.

One of the saddest thing about this thread is the people discussing it are not the people who need to learn from it.

So what?
We all vent, get frustrated and nothing changes.

You can only change yourself so the only option women have ( in my humble opinion) is to change the way we interact with men.

@wherearthough

One of the saddest thing about this thread is the people discussing it are not the people who need to learn from it.

So what?
We all vent, get frustrated and nothing changes.

You can only change yourself so the only option women have ( in my humble opinion) is to change the way we interact with men.

There are a couple here who need to learn from it . My last interaction with DoWAhDIddy where he told me to ‘go take a mains powered vibrator to my thoughts ‘ after I mentioned male privilege is proffe of that I think it’s easy to see that men like that have zero interest in changing anything about how they treat and view women as inferior

I think the strength of a thread like this is to make WOMEN think.
Many women still have the wrong idea of what rape is. Or the influence of patriarchy on every day life.
Because those behaviours are so normal we don’t question them.

I’m sure many women read this thread and will learn from it. That’s highly valuable imo.
I know for example that it allows me to clarify my own ideas. In the past, it has helped me put into words the huge discomfort I was feeling. But I couldn’t explain why.

So yes imo all very worthy