What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

I suppose the question is how would we as men and women go about fixing this situation.

From my experience of relationships both long term, post separation and also family members:

Men are more selfish and lack self awareness. Which I think explains a lot of the things raised in this thread.

Women are generally more into emotions and I would say need to take more ownership of their behaviours .

We live in an age where equality is being aimed for. Im not going to say anything like achieved but at the same time I don't think women have it as bad as some on here are suggesting.

In the most egalitarian societies men and women still gravitate to certain professions and society still operates quite differently for men and women.

To achieve what I think is wanted here both men and women need to listen to the others point of view and come to a mutual understanding. Celebrating each others qualities. Instead of becoming entrenched in their own views.

It's far easier to bemoan the qualities or lack of such qualities from the oposite sex than it is to try and address the issues in a way that challenges behaviours and also confronts ones own behaviours.

In my experience Ive not had a relationship tionships where the partner didnt have some pretty basic flaws and I know I have them as a man. I think the issue here though is suggesting it's one sided which it isn't.

Agree, very worthy.

Don't forget that there are lots of lurkers who read but don't post too. Many of which I would guess are men. Learning from women's experiences is invaluable. Its what made me appreciate Feminism when I first joined MN.

Interesting that you say that, because I often feel that some men are so crude in their approach to women that they don't know (my short experience on internet dating) that their approach would be better suited to other men!

I mean, it must be a pretty unsuccessful approach with the vast majority of women and result in a lot of rejection and their being blocked or ghosted (which is something men complain of all the time on OLD - "she just stopped talking to me") but they don't seem to learn from it. I would never use OLD again because so many men are just so disrespectful and forward.

They seem completely unaffected by the rejection though, it's like water off a duck's back. That's easy enough to understand when sending messages via OLD or social media, but I've seen men reacting like that IRL as well. They can have a woman in front of them practically oozing hatred and disdain as she tries to make clear she couldn't think of anything worse than sleeping with them - and they just take it as an indication they need to try again, or a different way.

It's a complete mystery to me. I'd find it so humiliating. I don't know whether men like that do actually succeed on every 1,000th attempt and that's what keeps them going, or whether it's all just a fantasy.

Blackstar01

‘We live in an age where equality is being aimed for. Im not going to say anything like achieved but at the same time I don't think women have it as bad as some on here are suggesting. ‘

Although you’re sentiments that men and women need to listen to one another is true this statement above is minimising the very real ezperiences of many many women that have been written about page after page here . I think this is do exactly the opposite of what your suggesting . Women come here ( and in other platforms ) express that they ARE in fact having very BAD experiences and you as a man , instead of listening , say ‘ oh I don’t think it’s as bad as some women are saying ! This is exactly what women are battling with men
IT ABSOLUTELY IS AS BAD as said for many many women . That’s why they say it

I think a lot of this is really confused with equality.

If someone, anyone, makes a crude sexual suggestion to you they are shit testing you. It is that simple. Will you put up with it? Same with pornography, same with

Women have to set their own boundaries early; you see lots of vacillating posts of “he didn’t mean this or said that or looked at this porn”.

Well okay; but give men their due. They are the same as women. When human beings say, watch or do something they mean it. Same. Don’t infantilise them when they want some something sexual from you - take it seriously. They mean it.

@Countingthebeat

Blackstar01

‘We live in an age where equality is being aimed for. Im not going to say anything like achieved but at the same time I don't think women have it as bad as some on here are suggesting. ‘

Although you’re sentiments that men and women need to listen to one another is true this statement above is minimising the very real ezperiences of many many women that have been written about page after page here . I think this is do exactly the opposite of what your suggesting . Women come here ( and in other platforms ) express that they ARE in fact having very BAD experiences and you as a man , instead of listening , say ‘ oh I don’t think it’s as bad as some women are saying ! This is exactly what women are battling with men
IT ABSOLUTELY IS AS BAD as said for many many women . That’s why they say it

I see your point but as I mentioned I think women have a tendency to gloss over their own behaviours and then complain how badly a man has acted.

Like yourself I can only base on my experiences.

Blackstar01 I don’t think women are glossingnover their own behaviour at all . I think the point being stressed over and over throughout this thread has been the much more damaging behaviour of many ( but but all ) men . When men are complaining about women’s behaviour in relationships it doesn’t tend to be about harassment , unwanted pictures , using cams , rapes ( yes they happen in relationships , the use of porn sites that distribute horrible material , this supporting horrible industries , child sexual abuse of their children ect
The TYPE and levels of abuses afflicted by men tend to be of a MUCH more serious nature , sometimes illegal and extremely damaging . I think you’d actually be hard pushed to find many women who havnt experienced one of these vents in their lives . Which is why your comment that ‘ most women don’t have it so bad as they are saying is so offensive
And I will add that this thread is about men’s behaviours !

but at the same time I don't think women have it as bad as some on here are suggesting.

Could you tell me why it’s ok for you
1- to dismiss women’s experience
2- to tell women what is their real experience when you’re not a woman (and it’s not their experience)

Isn’t that what mansplaining is too?

"Equality is not "being aimed for"? Who makes up this shit.

The employment rights contained in the Equality Act and protections against discrimination etc are based on the concept of equality of opportunity ie that you should not be held back, or discriminated against for example for being a woman. Its nothing to do with making women the same as men, as incels tend to make themselves believe.

I’d love an example of a woman glossing over their behaviour.

And how you think it compares to men glossing over their behaviour when they consider unwanted sex normal and not rape (see lack of consent with chocking, when you are sleeping or drunk)

@FifteenToes

It’s depressing. I work in a male dominated industry and this subject came up once on a night out. It is a numbers game to many of them. Some swiped right on everybody regardless of whether they felt their would be any attraction. Often it was on the basis of “a shag is a shag”

Sad.

Countingthebeat - can take the other points separately but yes women do gloss over their own behaviours regularly.

Some of the most scathing comments on this site (not this part of the forum) come from moms / step moms that are confronted with the behaviours of another woman.

Of course men will do more damage in a physical sense. These types of men we can all do without.

But Ive seen it from my ex wife and my Dads partner. Its nasty, vindictive and every bit as bad in my opinion. Just because it doesn't come with a physical scar doesnt make it less damaging.

@blackstar01 have you read all of this thread? We’re not talking about behaviours in individuals, more society as a whole and the expectations of women vs men.

I’m a woman and I’ll hold my hands up and say I’m probably a fucking nightmare. That isn’t what is being discussed here.

We’re not talking about a mans inability to communicate effectively, clean effectively, plan a day out, let alone a holiday! We’re talking about the very very damaging culture in which we all live, where women are completely objectified.

I believe that the vast majority of men even the very nice and respectful ones are fundamentally selfish

[quote EmmeG]@blackstar01 have you read all of this thread? We’re not talking about behaviours in individuals, more society as a whole and the expectations of women vs men.

I’m a woman and I’ll hold my hands up and say I’m probably a fucking nightmare. That isn’t what is being discussed here.

We’re not talking about a mans inability to communicate effectively, clean effectively, plan a day out, let alone a holiday! We’re talking about the very very damaging culture in which we all live, where women are completely objectified.[/quote]
The initial post talked about the qualities of men (or lack thereof) and women putting up with so much bad behaviour in a relationship.

You admit to being a nightmare that can't be much fun in a relationship.

@TonMoulin

I’d love an example of a woman glossing over their behaviour.

And how you think it compares to men glossing over their behaviour when they consider unwanted sex normal and not rape (see lack of consent with chocking, when you are sleeping or drunk)

Eh you've made quite the leap there.

@FifteenToes

Interesting that you say that, because I often feel that some men are so crude in their approach to women that they don't know (my short experience on internet dating) that their approach would be better suited to other men!

I mean, it must be a pretty unsuccessful approach with the vast majority of women and result in a lot of rejection and their being blocked or ghosted (which is something men complain of all the time on OLD - "she just stopped talking to me") but they don't seem to learn from it. I would never use OLD again because so many men are just so disrespectful and forward.

They seem completely unaffected by the rejection though, it's like water off a duck's back. That's easy enough to understand when sending messages via OLD or social media, but I've seen men reacting like that IRL as well. They can have a woman in front of them practically oozing hatred and disdain as she tries to make clear she couldn't think of anything worse than sleeping with them - and they just take it as an indication they need to try again, or a different way.

It's a complete mystery to me. I'd find it so humiliating. I don't know whether men like that do actually succeed on every 1,000th attempt and that's what keeps them going, or whether it's all just a fantasy.

They're not totally unaffected though. Some of them get quite angry when rejected.

In terms of consequences, some of them get reported to the police. And it often leads to more rejection or loneliness as they get older. Sleazy men really aren't very popular or successful with women, unless they're very wealthy. Women avoid them. They don't get many opportunities.

I often think that online, with such a low success rate, the reward for the average crude man is simply in shocking a woman or making her feel uncomfortable, a bit like a flasher must get a thrill.

I find British women a little bit timid in standing up to men even in terms of telling them whats wrong with their behaviour. If you look at the posts on here, everything is about blocking them, ignoring them, "not letting him get to you". So how are they to learn that their behaviour is unacceptable? What is wrong with telling them exactly what is wrong with them and moving on?

I told a man who contacted me on social media this week (completely unsolicited, British, no idea who he was) that he was too old and unattractive for me. Man, was he pissed off. But I really don't see why I'm bound to be polite, or whats wrong with telling the truth, as I don't want to be contacted on social media by creepy men. Perhaps he will learn something from it.

@GreenlandTheMovie

"Equality is not "being aimed for"? Who makes up this shit.

The employment rights contained in the Equality Act and protections against discrimination etc are based on the concept of equality of opportunity ie that you should not be held back, or discriminated against for example for being a woman. Its nothing to do with making women the same as men, as incels tend to make themselves believe.

I didn't day it was about making women the same as men. That's your projection.

It seems any man posting on this thread is shot down quite quickly. How dare you have an opinion that differs to mine. how very dare you.....

@blackstar01

Countingthebeat - can take the other points separately but yes women do gloss over their own behaviours regularly.

Some of the most scathing comments on this site (not this part of the forum) come from moms / step moms that are confronted with the behaviours of another woman.

Of course men will do more damage in a physical sense. These types of men we can all do without.

But Ive seen it from my ex wife and my Dads partner. Its nasty, vindictive and every bit as bad in my opinion. Just because it doesn't come with a physical scar doesnt make it less damaging.

Really ? Wow . So please tell me SPECIFICALLY what behaviours women commit on mass that cause as much damage as sexual harassment rape and even domestic violence and sexual abuse of ones children

So how are they to learn that their behaviour is unacceptable? What is wrong with telling them exactly what is wrong with them and moving on?

I totally agree with this. Men should be called out on their shitty behaviour but as women we're often told to just ignore so we look like the bigger person or to pretend that it doesn't bother us. You see it on here all the time. There's a currently a thread about a woman whose boyfriend of 7 years has been ignoring her calls and texts and the amount of posters (I assume the majority of whom are women) are telling her to 'just move on, he doesn't want you' and 'just get the message and leave him alone' is unreal.

It plays right into their hands.

Blackstar01 you really need a big education in gender issues if you believe women are causing anywhere near the damage of
Domestic violence
Online harassment
Women bit getting equal pay ( except in jobs where they give sexual services to men )

The silencing of women’s voices and experiences (of which you are serving as a great example )
A multi billion dollar industry created by men for men that distributes images of abused women women without their consent and child abuse
Child sexual abuse
I’m sure women here could give many other examples
Myer you in your delusion claim that ‘ oh women do as much damage. Sooooo . Put your money where your mouth is and tell us all the things women do on the scale men do that cause the damage to men Thea etchings do to women and girls

I'm just browsing bumble (an online dating app) whilst reading this thread. Check out this profile...

‘It seems any man posting on this thread is shot down quite quickly. How dare you have an opinion that differs to mine. how very dare you.....’

No , but ignorant men who make stupid statement like rap and violence are equivalent to what women are doing to men

I wonder why more women arnt jailed if so many of us are running around raping, harassing and murdering men
Perhaps you think that’s some conspiracy too

Countingthebeat - right so it's a contest.

This place gets more and more toxic.I intended to join this thread to say how do things improve but clearly this isn't about that. I'll leave you to it.

@Countingthebeat

‘It seems any man posting on this thread is shot down quite quickly. How dare you have an opinion that differs to mine. how very dare you.....’

No , but ignorant men who make stupid statement like rap and violence are equivalent to what women are doing to men

I wonder why more women arnt jailed if so many of us are running around raping, harassing and murdering men
Perhaps you think that’s some conspiracy too

Eh????