What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

blackstar01 I didn't day it was about making women the same as men. That's your projection.

I didn't say that you did say that was what it was about. Talk about projection...you need more attention to detail.

I think @blackstar01 's error was to try and hone in on the generic challenges of relationships between men and women.

By keeping it quite high level (along the lines of men are from mars yada yada) he needn't concern himself with the horrific testimonies evidenced in this thread.

What I find most confusing, considering a woman brought him into this world, is where is the empathy?

This is the crux of why we are where we are.

Women express real fears, concerns and how they are trying to stay alive and sane based on daily male behaviour and a man comes on the thread to inform us we're focusing on the wrong aspects.

Thank god I'm ecstatically single 😊

@blackstar01

Countingthebeat - right so it's a contest.

This place gets more and more toxic.I intended to join this thread to say how do things improve but clearly this isn't about that. I'll leave you to it.

Lol that’s crazy . You sit here and dismiss women’s experiences , then tell us women’s behaviour is just as damaging Then when actually challenged to give example of how women ‘ gloss over their behaviour ‘ by others or asked by me to give examples of how we are as damaging as men in our behaviour yoy throw your arms in the air and say ‘ right so it’s a contest’ You are a prime example of how men think they can hijack every conversation , mansplqin without any authority or knowledge or evidence and then act like women are the unreasonable ones because we didn’t bow down to you

‘What I find most confusing, considering a woman brought him into this world, is where is the empathy? ‘

There was none because he didn’t care to read what women wrote . His biggest contribution to most of our comments was ‘ errr and eh ‘ . He’s either incredibly unintelligent or doesn’t give a shit to understand..... and if he did he didn’t take it seriously as in his mind ‘ it wasn’t as bad as they said ‘ this is a product of the entitlement men feel , imo it comes from our culture and in particular porn which reinforces the notion that women are less than human . Just objects to appease men’s desires , not real people with valid thoughts feelings and experiences of their own

Sadly you're probably right @Countingthebeat and you forgot to add emotional, hormonal and bitter to the list of reasons to dismiss women's life experiences.

If it wasn't so serious you would laugh at how absurd it is.

Until men are directly, detrimental affected by their everyday actions towards women, nothing sadly will change.

The initial post talked about the qualities of men (or lack thereof) and women putting up with so much bad behaviour in a relationship.

Conversations develop. That's how they work.

The following discussions have explored why there is so much bad behaviour from men in relationships.

And I have to say, I totally agree with pretty much everything that has been said.

The last man I dated, I knew him through friends but I didnt know him very well so, when he invited me to his house for lunch on the second date, I felt reasonably comfortable going.

We spoke about it months afterwards. I dumped him largely because he is one of those men who doesn't see his privilege and I told him that I knew I was taking a risk when I went to his house that day but felt it was a calculated one because he had been vouched for by mutual friends. He was shocked that I thought that way. I asked him how many times, when he went out, did he consider the threat of sexual assault. Obviously, it didn't occur to him ever.

He said that he did fear general assault from men because he had physical qualities that made him a target in his younger days - I pointed out that men, in that case, were still the issue.

He also said that the same reasons had meant he was rejected by many women over the years.

I couldn't make him understand that fearing sexual rejection by women was no where near in the same class as fearing sexual assault by men.

Essentially, he was the embodiment of "men are scared women will laugh at them, women are scared that men will kill them".

He was also one of those men who feel that grid girls were banned to appease the insecurities of other women (why should those women be financially penalised and miss out on all that travelling and high flying life styles just because other women are jealous they are prettier than them?) and that strippers and the like are exploiting men not the other way round.

We had a heated discussion about it, by the end of which, he kind of agreed that it did mean that it impacted on all.women in that it perpetuated the idea that a woman's only economic worth/value was inherently in their sexual attractiveness to men and that it made women bit part players in men's fantasies rather than in the many other qualities that women possess independently of men.

But he still couldn't really 'get it'.

When we first started dating, one of his female friends told me that she was really pleased we had got together and she hoped it would be each of our 'happily ever afters'. Many people said the same tbh.

I'm not unattractive but I'm certainly no 'grid girl' either in age, looks or physique. She said that he'd quite often brought a date on nights out and they all wondered afterwards what on earth they saw in each other - he was old enough to be their dad in some cases and they were very young and had nothing in common with him. She said these 'girls' were never seen again and it was nice to see that he had matured and had now found himself a fully developed women.

She wasn't being critical of these young women but just of the fact that he (a 50 year old, educated professional, intelligent man) was only dating very young, life inexperienced women without any thought to their compatability as people.

But, of course, like many men, he wasnt interested in their compatability as people, he was interested in fucking a young, hot body.

I love how @blackstar01 never gave any concrete example on how women gloss over their behaviour.

And didn’t dare try and compare that to men who gloss over their sexual behaviour - aka having sex wo consent with women but thinking they are great men. Which is many men (see once again the 40% of women who have been chocked wo consent - I can’t seem to get that stat out if my mind. It’s so awful :()

Going back to teaching and PHSE in secondary schools, I’m wondering why there isn’t much emphasis on the definition of consent. Even in main streams outlets, we have some emphasis on that a-few years ago with one police force (I think) reposting the cup of tea analogy but that has died down now.
One hypothesis for me is that actually many men have done exactly that (sex with a women completely drunk, sex when the woman is asleep) and they can’t cope.
Another hypothesis is that they want to keep their ‘freedom’ to have sex the way they want - aka wo full enthusiastic consent from the woman - maybe because they are also convinced that most women are ‘frigid’ and not so keen in sex so they would miss out a lot of they had to ask rather than take.

I don't know why it's not covered either. But inthink its because a lot of adults don't actually understand consent.

I'm a primary teacher and I don't ever make children 'share' their personal items (eg pencils etc) nor play with someone they don't want to or even relinquish a toy if someone else wants it in nursery (all of which I've seen other teachers do).

And invert much use the 'language of consent' when explaining to the children why someone doesnt have to share.

Yet in everything from RE to PSHE I see 'sharing' described as being like Jesus or a good friend. Whilst selfishness is an unattractive quality, we are actually allowed to say no.

There is a good friend matrix that I was required to use once and, from memory, about half the things on their required the 'good friend's to override their own boundaries and ignore consent.

@Anotherstupidquestion, your experience is similar than mine.

I’ve seen the look of utter incomprehension on my h and teens face when I told them about the fact I feel at risk let’s say when I’m on the high street at 11.00pm and pubs are emptying. How I know that, even at 50yo, I can be a target and men dint take no for an answer.

But for me (probably because I’ve been ‘lucky’ to escape rape) my main issue is how little respect men have for women.
In a Relationship, that means taking decision on their own and expecting the woman to just agree.
That means refusing to engage in day to day parenting, hw etc... the organisation of hols but still expecting that everything will be done to THEIR liking.
It’s the refusal to actually a woman’s career as important as their own. Because you know it might be detrimental to theirs (or their leisure time etc...). For 3 years I worked every other weekend and DH was solely responsible of our two dcs. God that was hell. Because it seems that asking him to actually step up at the level of a divorced man and be in charge EOW of his dcs was such an inconvenience and hard work. (And yes he didn’t appreciate me pointing that out either)
It’s even down the little things such as nit making the effort to get out of the way when you are cooking in the kitchen. Thereby giving me more work. But that spot is where They wanted to stand so why should they move....
It’s the expectation you will baby them and they can ask many stupid questions and you’ll be right there. Again I remember going to somewhere with DH. Somewhere HE needed to go to (I was merely tagging along) and he was driving. After about 15 mins setting off, I ask him if he had been there and knew the route. No I’m not sure was the answer. Did he need the satnav? Well I don’t know. If YOU think it can help... Err no.... he got shitty when I pointed out I didn’t need to arrive there in time and I wasn’t driving. So it was up to him to decide if the satnav was a good idea. Did HE actually need it?

So many other examples of learnt incompetence, expecting their wife to be like their mum whilst expecting everyone to jump to all their wishes.
(And no I really don’t believe it’s the fault of mothers for the way they’ve educated their child)

Good point about sharing and how it’s seen as a very good thing. But at the same time, it teaches that saying NO isn’t acceptable (and nor is upholding your boundaries)

I wonder why that’s sort of teaching still affecting women more than men.

‘But, of course, like many men, he wasnt interested in their compatability as people, he was interested in fucking a young, hot body.’

Lol yes so many of them chasing much much younger women . Men seem to genuinely believe they age so much better than women and are entitled to some hot young babe . I even hear them say how women age so badly , how they wouldn’t date women their own age cause they look so old . I’m sure the endless porn with middle age pudgy men paired with 20 yr old girls helps their delusions along

You will also need younger women to stop dating these older men for them to change though @Countingthebeat

It reminds me of a friend I had who would always complain that women were only interested in his money yet had no qualms chasing those type of women in the first place. As far as I know he is still doing this and no doubt complaining

@coronaway

You will also need younger women to stop dating these older men for them to change though *@Countingthebeat*

It reminds me of a friend I had who would always complain that women were only interested in his money yet had no qualms chasing those type of women in the first place. As far as I know he is still doing this and no doubt complaining

I would bet my left arm that the number of young women actually dating these older men is a fraction of the older men WANTiNG , LUSTING and feeling ENTITLED to a younger women . It’s the whole attitude of men feeling they are entitled to porn are type women I’m referring to If you want to get into the whole gender issues that lead to women being valued mainly on youth and fertility and men being valued on actually life experience wisdom skills and maturity that’s a whole mother level of mysogyny and patriarchy we could discuss

There is also the fact that an older man seeing a younger woman is seen as NORMAL.
I suspect this is a left over from arranged marriages where the young woman was 'given away' to the rich man.

On the other side, god forbid an older woman is seducing a younger man. The hand wriggling about Macron ans his wife was quite a sight vs the total acceptance of Trump's marriage with a much younger wife.

It's a shame btw because it seems that sexually, a very good match is an older woman who knows what she wants and a younger man who can cope with 'longer sessions' (and can be taught).

Whereas the 60yo with the 30yo is meh....

I so agree with you @Countingthebeat

On online dating, I'm so often contacted by men who are ten years older, and not in the same 'grade' as me in the looks department. (I'm no Angelina Jolie btw which is precisely why I wouldn't dream of messaging Brad Pitt). I find it really offensive, and often want to respond 'how dare you'? But of course, being a woman, I'm far too nice for that.

I just tell them to get lost @arethereanyleftatall then block them - I assume they get the hint

@Countingthebeat ah I think we probably differ on how much nature and how much nuture plays a role but that has been done to death and I don't want to stray too far from the original topic.

It's a shame I'm not into casual flings as I'd happily fill the cougar role when I'm older I think if more of us are into that we should go for it!

Lol yes so many of them chasing much much younger women . Men seem to genuinely believe they age so much better than women and are entitled to some hot young babe.

Now this is something I don't understand, and the same language keeps being used so if anyone can clarify -

How does the fact of a man wanting younger women, or even chasing younger women, mean that he feels entitled to younger women?

People wants things and try to get them all the time, without feeling entitled to them. I just wanted an ice cream so I went to the shop and bought one. I didn't feel entitled to it though - if I had, I would have stolen it.

Obviously men who rape feel entitled to sex. Men who badger inappropriately and won't take no for an answer perhaps. But if a man operates within normal polite social parameters (eg those of a dating site) when asking a woman out, how is that about "entitlement" to anything, just because he happens to be older than her?

I even hear them say how women age so badly , how they wouldn’t date women their own age cause they look so old . I’m sure the endless porn with middle age pudgy men paired with 20 yr old girls helps their delusions along

Possibly, but men's preference for younger women long predates the internet and is well documented in both fiction and non fiction throughout history, and across all cultures.

@arethereanyleftatall

I so agree with you *@Countingthebeat*

On online dating, I'm so often contacted by men who are ten years older, and not in the same 'grade' as me in the looks department. (I'm no Angelina Jolie btw which is precisely why I wouldn't dream of messaging Brad Pitt). I find it really offensive, and often want to respond 'how dare you'? But of course, being a woman, I'm far too nice for that.

I don't even do online dating and am not single any more, but I get contacted by dumb older men on sm trying to "chat" to me, telling me I "just popped up on their page". Its pathetic. So I just tell them they're too old and bald/wrinkled for me - I think its best to let them know rather than beating around the bush telling them I'm not available/not interested, etc. Their chat is always totally appalling too. Like they talk in cliches.

When I went back to uni to do my Masters, I joined one of the uni sports clubs and had a great time, was fully accepted and asked out and dated undergraduates in their twenties. But there were also a few former student hangers-on, all men, who in retrospect were probably quite creepy. They were probably trying to date the undergraduate women, who were patently disinterested in them and only dated their own cohort. I remember talking to one undergraduate of about 21/22 about one of these men, and she was saying "Oh, X is good looking and I think he likes me, but he's just soooo OLD - I just couldn't go there". X was 29. To be honest, she put me off him as well, even though I was 32!

So its not any Angelina Jolie these older men are getting if they do actually manage to date younger! Paul Hollywood with Summer Whathername, who is still dining out on it 2 years after it ended, is more likely.

Crikey - I wish I had the balls to do that! I normally say 'I'm sorry, you're too far away from me', but maybe I'm doing other women a disservice by not telling them to fuck off and only message women who are also fat, bald and with dodgy teeth. I would like to know why they think it's acceptable.

'Thank you for contacting me. I can't help but notice you're not in the same league as me. Could you let me know please why you thought I'd be interested?'

Possibly, but men's preference for younger women long predates the internet and is well documented in both fiction and non fiction throughout history, and across all cultures.

I think you'll find ithas more to do with the fact those older men wanted a young wife who could bear children rather than one their wn age that couldnt.... And yes that means younger women are more attractive.

something that is still there really. Once a woman has passed child bearing age, she just disappears...

I think women who are fat, bold and with no teeth might want to be able to date men that arent fat, bold and with no teeth though!!

Mind you that applies to men as well (getting less attractive as they age). Thus all the comments right here ridiculing their baldness, "podgy bellies" etc.

The main exception seems to be that if an older man is rich enough, he might be able to get a young gold digger.

@arethereanyleftatall

Crikey - I wish I had the balls to do that! I normally say 'I'm sorry, you're too far away from me', but maybe I'm doing other women a disservice by not telling them to fuck off and only message women who are also fat, bald and with dodgy teeth. I would like to know why they think it's acceptable.

'Thank you for contacting me. I can't help but notice you're not in the same league as me. Could you let me know please why you thought I'd be interested?'

Why does it take balls? Who cares what some random man thinks? I mean, seriously.

Why lie and be nice to them? It just encourages them to contact more random women, in the hope of a scattergun effect, that one out of thousands might say yes.

Its pathetic behaviour, and they deserve to be told the truth even if its blunt.