What happened to men?

[AnotherStupidQuestion]

There have been a few threads along this line recently. I don't have anything new to add really; I'm just surprised that there are so many crap men about.

I've been single for a decade. In that time, I dated a bit and had a few flings but nothing that constituted a relationship.

Even men who seem decent on the surface are hiding some deeply unattractive qualities just beneath the surface.

It's got to the point where, even on the Tell me about your lovely man threads on here, my cynical voice is asking, "But what do you not know about?"; "What's he keeping from you?; "What are you tolerating that I wouldn't?"

I know the answer is patriarchy and misogyny but I wonder how we, as a species, have become so dysfunctional that so many relationships are poor; so many women are prepared to put up with so much shit and so many men are just appalling? Yet so many seem to also want a relationship.

I don't hate men. I have a son and some very close male friends I have good relationships with. But i have given up completely on ever having a mutually respectful, loving relationship now.

Mens as friends, family, colleagues are great. Men in a relationship? Just no.

I just wondered how other people feel.

"One thing I must say OP is that you are 45. Kids as well? Most decent guys are in relationships by their 30s."

I suspect this is a large part of the issue. Once you are older it is the dregs that are left. The good ones stay in their relationships and work at them. A large proportion of the men who become available again are the men who've walked out on their previous wife and children. Obviously there are some men who are screwed over by a woman and become single again, but I suspect there are fewer so they become harder to find amongst the rest. I'd love to see some research into the reasons why men and women are single later in life as it might explain a great deal.

[quote DedlyMedally]@coronaway

Surely that's already what happens?
With sugar babies and prostitution, I'm sure there is a contingent of married men who want sex outside of their relationship which will be handled with a degree of guaranteed discretion.
However, when I read about something like onlyfans and the amounts of money that these women are making, I can't imagine that this is coming from men with abundant sex/romantic lives.
The demand leads to the supply.[/quote]
Realistically, you would have to be very deluded to think that the average man is a sugar daddy. Most of them are trying to find free accommodation to get out of their rented room, never mind support a young gorgeous student 25 years you her than them.

As for "Only Fans" again, it's a completely deluded view that thats common. But a lot of these sad fuckers think it's normal because they've read about it.

It takes a certain type of woman to do something like that, one with a very strong stomach. Most of us are too busy actually enjoying our lives with hobbies and do on to go down that sleazy road.

Once I catch even the faintest whiff of sleaze on a man, I'm off.

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that states once you get to a certain age any single men are 'poor quality' and single for a reason. Surely you could then use that logic for single women of a certain age too? Or is that was you're implying - that we're 'poor quality' also?

@EmmeG Not to sound overly critical of your OH but he doesn't sound 'good' in the least - he actually sounds like an arse.

@DedlyMedally Sorry what I meant was do you think this is a desirable workaround? I agree with you and would say this will only increase but I'm not sure it is desirable. I definitely don't think if you're in a committed relationship there is any excuse to cheat either - I was implying more people stay single (both men and women). Women have sex with whoever they like and men pay for it.

I think the OnlyFans craze is definitely fuelled by lonely, likely socially awkward men who crave companionship and connection - otherwise why else would people pay for it (sometimes large sums) for what is out there for free?

Also, and I think a PP touched on this. We do have to remember people have different likes and desires in a partner. I'm obviously not talking about abuse but I do know a number of women who actually quite like what I guess you could describe as a 'lad'. I can't see the appeal myself but I know friends who tend to gravitate towards this kind of man - I think they find it more exciting and thrilling.

@Maca07166

From a male point of view I’ll just say this.

Because women are completely perfect and innocent right?

Right!

So what its the answer for 'older' single women? (I'm 47 so similar to OP.) I'm comfortable on my own, ok financially with a good job and great friends. But the bottom line is that single life can be very lonely.

@BearandaSpare

So what its the answer for 'older' single women? (I'm 47 so similar to OP.) I'm comfortable on my own, ok financially with a good job and great friends. But the bottom line is that single life can be very lonely.

Younger men.

@GreenlandTheMovie Now we're talking

@coronaway
I don't really think there will be a significant workaround. The way things are now sort of does "work" for the intended purpose (making sure children are cared for, financially at least, until they reach adulthood).

I don't think women, en masses, will be convinced to not want children any more than men will be convinced to not want sex (preferably with younger, more attractive women).

I'm not sure what you can do. Depressing as it is, I think permissive prostitution would make things worse for women by removing one of the major incentives for men to actually cater to women.

I don't think the idea of restricting themselves to casual emotionless sex is that appealing for a lot of women either. There are plenty of sites set up to facilitate this and the men always outnumber women by orders of magnitude.

@BearandaSpare I agree the alternatives may not seem great especially if you're not the kind of person who copes well being alone but it's been proven time and time again - it's better to be single than in a bad relationship.

You also have more options to date freely without the biological clock or financial incentive pressures that others sadly face. Pick, choose or refuse.

I've started a adjunct to this thread here
( shared with OP's permission)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4133634-Single-but-not-looking-Share-the-highs-lows?watched=1&msgid=103571358#103571358

For those women who embraced the single life ( at least for now) and want to celebrate all that entails.

@coronaway You're probably right. But to anybody who doesn't live with him - he appears to be a 'good' guy. Everyone thinks he is because he presents himself in that way. He thinks he is.

I guess my point was that unless you're living with someone and actually know how they treat the people supposedly closest to them, you don't really know them! As cynical as it sounds, I don't think our 'ideal' man is out there but I guess that would look different to everyone. I think they all hold a certain amount of misogyny, I've even internalised it (although, working on that) so I think we would struggle to find a man free from its shackles.

@GreenlandTheMovie I think you are probably right. Women who don't want to be stuck in another relationship and who are independent, have careers, are financially secure etc, often have had children already and just don't want the hassle and certainly don't want to live with a man, rather to spend some time with another adult in a romatic way occassionally for fun and have some good sex... younger men may be more amenable and satisfying for this. With fewer emotional problems and fewer demands for emotional support/ commitment. I guess we all need to follow the example of middle aged men and become "cougars". OLD would certainly not be the answer to that as it would require someone respectful who understands boundaries. And is generally a bit yuk.

[quote EmmeG]@coronaway You're probably right. But to anybody who doesn't live with him - he appears to be a 'good' guy. Everyone thinks he is because he presents himself in that way. He thinks he is.

I guess my point was that unless you're living with someone and actually know how they treat the people supposedly closest to them, you don't really know them! As cynical as it sounds, I don't think our 'ideal' man is out there but I guess that would look different to everyone. I think they all hold a certain amount of misogyny, I've even internalised it (although, working on that) so I think we would struggle to find a man free from its shackles.[/quote]
That is why it is best not to live with men! What is to be gained from that?

I think keeping clear boundaries and having time alone is wonderful. Not that I am even looking for someone for fun right now. But in a statistical sense, studies show consistently that married or cohabiting men are less happy than women who live alone (dating or not). And that women who cohabit (in marriage of not) are less happy than men who do. So there is no incentive for women to do this!

Oh and the single guys are the most unhappy. Statistically. So all we do by living with men (on average, obviously) is make them more happy and us less happy. I'd need some serious convincing to sign up for that again!

I have lots of wonderful men in my life. My father, brothers, son, friends, colleagues. But no desire to share a house with them, that's all I mean.

@MagentaIsDoesNotExist

Oh and the single guys are the most unhappy. Statistically. So all we do by living with men (on average, obviously) is make them more happy and us less happy. I'd need some serious convincing to sign up for that again!

I have lots of wonderful men in my life. My father, brothers, son, friends, colleagues. But no desire to share a house with them, that's all I mean.

Other than my son obviously. But he is 4 so he is not so much trouble.

@MagentaIsDoesNotExist it would be interesting to know the happiness of single people who have always been single through choice vs those who are single because of circumstance (divorce, relationship breakdown etc).

I agree with OP however, women are pathetic creatures too. We have allowed men to take power and continue to dominate. We have to take accountability for the way society brings boys up.

@coronaway, I agree there is probably a difference

But I think those studies rather point towards the fact women do all the emotional work in a relationship. And carry the mental load, do the washing ect...
If a man is unable to look after himself, to carry all that work AND is basically resentful that he has to do it, I’m not surprised they are struggling.( So much too for the clamour of ‘I don’t need a relationship. It’s just too hard’ we’ve had earlier on)

On the other side, a single woman is suddenly free from having to look after another child, his emotional needs, guiding and supporting etc.. again no wonder they are happier.

I'm 54, been single for 3 years. I'm mostly content with my life now, I have my own flat, my own money. My children are grown up, I don't have to look after anyone besides myself. I do get a bit lonely, sometimes think I'd like to meet someone again. I gave OLD a go but men my age don't want to date women my age; they seem to feel they 'deserve' women in their 20s and 30s who wouldn't look at them twice. And these are men who are not fantastic looking, fit etc
I think it's unlikely I will ever meet anyone I could tolerate sharing my life with. They'd have to offer something pretty good for me to stop being single. I do feel that my value as girlfriend/date has plummeted as I've got older. I wish I could meet someone who values intelligence, quiet confidence, maturity etc but they have yet to show themselves!
I'm not bad looking for my age, most people would guess I was younger than I am, but I'm reluctant to keep on making the effort when the effort is not repaid IYSWIM.

@ukgift2016

I agree with OP however, women are pathetic creatures too. We have allowed men to take power and continue to dominate. We have to take accountability for the way society brings boys up.

It’s more complex than that I think

If you look at women’s behaviour from the pov of an independent woman happy to make her own way in the world then maybe.

But if the scales haven’t dropped from your eyes. If everyone around you thinks a man putting some washing to go is the pinacle, then no wonder those women are happy to accept undesirable behaviours.

Also money and education make a difference. It’s easy to stand your ground if you are well educated and financially independent. Harder if you are on a low wage and need two wages to survive and avoid poverty.
I’m still with H because of my chronic illness. Wo that, my dcs would have spent most of their childhood in poverty, sometimes caring for their mum. I chose to ‘accept’ DH misogyn behaviours instead. Maybe I was right, maybe wrong. But there is no denying that being a couple helps weathering those issues and give much more security than being single. (For BOTH partners)

As women get better educated, I think they will make different choices than my generation

[quote MagentaIsDoesNotExist]@GreenlandTheMovie I think you are probably right. Women who don't want to be stuck in another relationship and who are independent, have careers, are financially secure etc, often have had children already and just don't want the hassle and certainly don't want to live with a man, rather to spend some time with another adult in a romatic way occassionally for fun and have some good sex... younger men may be more amenable and satisfying for this. With fewer emotional problems and fewer demands for emotional support/ commitment. I guess we all need to follow the example of middle aged men and become "cougars". OLD would certainly not be the answer to that as it would require someone respectful who understands boundaries. And is generally a bit yuk. [/quote]
If you're going to be messed around or just want casual, you might as well get it from a younger man than an old goat. But don't write off younger men for more serious relationships.

I literally know a single mother of 4 in her forties who married a wealthy aristocrat. However, he was in his sixties (although one of the few good looking ones who had kept in shape), and he talks non-stop about herself (although she doesn't mind that). I know several women with decent guys 7-8 years younger than them too.

The thing is, even for casual relationships, you need a fairly decent man who is respectful and can hold down a conversation and not cheat, etc..

I think its better to be single than with some no-hoper who is making you miserable. Not lest because it might prevent you from meeting someone decent. It also makes you look less desirable if you're with someone who obviously isn't that desirable a man.

And OLD is full of men who spend too much time on OLD, so I avoid anyone who does OLD. I met current bf on a language summer school abroad, and a lot of wealthy, intelligent people do attend this sort of thing. Cruises are probably good as well, especially special interest ones. Sports coaching holidays, like ski-ing or tennis. Although I avoid ceroc/salsa/spinning/gym classes as the men you meet there tend to be the multishagger type deliberately targetting a female dominated hobby.

I went on OLD for 2 weeks and I was really shocked by how bad the standard was.

I think if you want loyalty, reliability, devotion, affection and unconditional love then get a dog, not a man
isnt that just another way of saying that only a 'dumb animal' would be unconditionally loyal to someone?
I think all creatures are inherently self interested and will pursue that interest to the best of their cognitive ability
we should wise up and play a harder game, stop letting men take the piss

On the other side, a single woman is suddenly free from having to look after another child, his emotional needs, guiding and supporting etc.. again no wonder they are happier.

This. You get your brain back, and don’t get yourself diverted. Less to do and worry about.

[quote DedlyMedally]@Countingthebeat
So effectively your answer is ‘I’m not able to give any equivalents to what me. Are doing to women .

I don't know because I literally couldn't care less. I'm not particularly interested in men or their problems.

It's just quite clear to me that heterosexual men and heterosexual women generally have different wants and expectations of members of the opposite sex.

I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to make an oppression tally, I was simply stating that concluding that something is "wrong with men" because they don't cater specifically to the desires of women and ignore their own needs is silly on one hand and pointless on the other.
You brought up crime, which wasn't really the point of the topic and I got a bit side-tracked by that.

I'm not really putting effort into engaging with you because it's a bit pointless. Maybe women's complaints ARE more valid. Do you think men will forget their complaints because of that?[/quote]
Yes I think you and I no longer engaging is a good idea considering you ‘ don’t care about ken and their issues ‘ because in truth the killing raping harassinment and abuse of women in porn is a not just a men’s issues . It’s women who get hurt and clearly that’s what you don’t care about
And yea and myself and many people have said I bought up Crimea because some of what men do ID criminal . Others stuff is just beyond shitty but blearily you don’t care less because as a male it apparently doesn’t affect you
You offered not one legitimate response to any question I posed and when pressed about that threw your entitled arms in the air and said ‘ oh I don’t care about men’s issues’ and called women calling kit to be ABUSED ‘ women’s desires ‘
No actually it’s a human right and one EVERY decent human being should be concerned about

*women calling not to be abused is not just simply some desire dedly it’s a right ‘