How do I get ex to agree with me moving kids abroad

[Floatingaway2017]

Hello

I have been applying for jobs abroad as it has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience. I am looking for a change for myself and children who are in primary school at the moment. I am doing okay as a single mum in the UK but life is stressful and busy. We are always running around from school to work and living in a big city life is expensive.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life. I really feel this is the best thing for kids and I at the moment. This move is not permanent and I plan for us to move back within a few years (3-5 years maximum) unless we absolutely love it there and don't want to move back.

How do I approach my ex about giving me permission to do this. He has parental responsibility like me. He sees kids one day a week (no overnights) and pays maintenance. He doesn't involve himself in their schooling or childcare. Doesn't take them to any extracurricular clubs. He has very young children with his current partner as well as stepchildren. He is not really that interested or invested in my children's upbringing or welfare so I don't think it would be a massive disruption to him if we moved. However he has narcissistic tendencies and may just try to thwart my plans because he can. He has seemed to become more indifferent towards me though which I am hoping may work in my favour in convincing him to agree to this.

Similarly I feel like he doesn't add anything significant to my children's life that they would miss if we went abroad and actually the wonderful new experiences they would have would compensate for this. During the week they never ask to speak to him and no longer get disappointed if they can't see him on the weekends for any reason. Basically he is ambivalent and so are they.

I'm happy to bring them during holidays to visit their dad and support their relationship with his family in other ways. I am 60-70% convinced he will agree but I am not sure how to broach the matter in a way that will tip it more in my favour. Please can you advise especially if you have dealt with a narcisstic coparent or been in this situation.

Thankfully, courts usually block parents like you from taking away children from the other parent.

Yes. Unfortunately, what they can't do is make the other parent shoulder a fair share of the financial, practical and emotional burden of raising the children. It's left to the RP to scrabble around desperately trying to juggle all the balls and provide a decent standard of living for the children.

Also...and I know the point is a theoretical one since she'd never go without them....it is only the kids who would be prevented from going, not the OP. Theoretically, she could decide to go without them, at which point her ex would have to be prepared to have them full-time.

Selfish much?! Poor kids. Poor dad.

I was the child whose dad moved overseas for a few years. I’ve also watched a family member take her primary school age children to live overseas, leaving their dad in the U.K.

While of course there are benefits to a life overseas, I think you’re being exceedingly flippant by saying they’ll miss him at first but they’ll get over it. No they won’t. Having a shitty situation at their dad’s house isn’t a good enough reason for you to remove them completely. If they were teens and could meaningfully contribute to the decision it would be different. Young children don’t understand what it’s like for someone to completely disappear from their lives. And yes, that is different to him not bothering some weeks. As a child, I was in that exact situation. Taking them away won’t stop them being sad about their dad and will simply make them even less of his family.

You say he has other young children. As they get older things may improve at his house for your DC. Take them away for “3-5” years and they’ll become strangers. These are formative years.

Also, being on a different continent it’s extremely unlikely that you will come back to the U.K. for holidays. You might start out with that intention but when push comes to shove it will seem like a giant expense and faff and visits will be scarce, if at all. Who wants to spend school holidays traipsing to another country and staying in uncomfortable surroundings rather than relaxing at home? It won’t happen. This relative vowed to do the same as you - she never came back.

There are very few circumstances when this is the right thing to do for the children. I get it, you think he’s an enormous arse and want to get your kids away from him as you see them hurting. It’s shut but there’s no scenario where they don’t have to deal with some shitty emotions. The solution you’re suggesting means that they’ll miss him and irreparably damage the relationship. And may even resent you.

I think you’re highly unlikely to win and thank god for that, this is really not an ok approach.

He may not be an ideal dad but he’s not terrible, they have regular contact. You want to strip them of a relationship with their father, as well as strip them of a relationship with their siblings and wider family. As their siblings grow up these relationships will be so important for them, and taking them abroad denies them the ability to have this.

Sorry but reading your posts it is all about you. Yes there are places overseas where life is cheaper and prettier, however you have children and their needs trump your fantasy idea of life in a prettier place. You seem totally unrealistic about what life abroad would involve, you’d have no support system and I doubt it would be easier.

You write about them having a relationship with their father as being a strain on them. This is BS and a court would savage you for this approach. You are also clearly annoyed about his having a new family. His relationship with his children is the only important part of your past with him, you come across as quite bitter and like you don’t support their relationship with their dad.

I’d also seriously consider what the children will think of you in the future—if their relationship with their dad goes downhill after you move, they will (rightly) blame you for this.

Op, which country?

Speaking again as someone who spent many years living overseas, coming back for holidays is a massive pain.

If they are young children, they are not going to be without you for weeks at a time, especially to spend time with a dad they are no longer used to seeing who isn't used to caring for their needs.

If they are older, they are going to want to see their friends in the holidays. They are not going to want to be shipped back off to their estranged dad for weeks at a time.

Yes, it is hugely valuable to have time living overseas. They can experience it when they are older. The advantages of spending time abroad are massively outweighed by the cons of leaving dad and extended family, being separated from UK friends, having to integrate into a foreign school where they will then be sent out of the country again in every time they get a school holiday, and then being uprooted again a couple of years down the line once they have settled.

I don't think this really benefits them at all and you need to accept that instead of giving their quality of life as a reason for moving.

Also silly to say the contact is the same because it's all in one block. It doesn't work like that and I'm sure you know it. One of the reasons we moved back was because my kids only saw their grandparents in month-long blocks at a time when we visited or they did. They found it hard spending the block of time together because they spent so long apart in between that they didn't really know them at all. It was too much of a gear change. Now they see grandparents every week or two for an hour at a time, they have a great relationship.

Ré your last message, you're very right. I haven't had the experience (thankfully) of having a "reluctant" parent but I've seen it enough, through friends and work in counselling, and the impact is always the same. As adults, they are resentful and have gone no to low contact. I don't think for one second this relationship is worth investing in. Secondly as I said I went to an international school and the experience of moving around was extremely common. It made for culturally aware, well provided for children and teenagers who now have so many opportunities open to them and find it very easy to make friends and adapt.
I've also worked (as part of my job) with people on low income and the UK and the quality of life is shite. There is so little available to kids here. And now speaking from experience, we don't have much money at the moment and are as a result considering moving away so we can give our daughter a better childhood with more opportunities, a garanteed decent school and after school activities. If the kids were really happy where you are, attached to their schools, with a positive relationship with their dad then it would be a different equation and I wouldn't necessarily be saying that. I really hope your ex just sees it as less hassle to agree. You could also make it clear that if you don't go you'll have to change jobs and increase your hours and he'll have to have them stay with him. See how he likes that!

I feel really sorry for your kids. Their dad makes it obvious that they aren't his priority, and reading your posts, it's all about what you want, and so they don't signed like you are putting them first either.

Because who honestly would trade having a relationship with my a father, saying step siblings, spending time with a loving grandparent, having local friends to be uprooted somewhere that has nice weather. Your aren't going to be around any more either, so it's not as if they get to spend more time with you. And your plan is to wait until they are settled and make friends, and then uproot them again and cone back. By which time, those they loved and left will be like strangers to them. And your solution to them seeing their father is to simply to dump them on him for 6 weeks, when they'll barely have a relationship outside those times, and when they don't even stay overnight as it is, as the house is so crowded. I guess you'd be able to work on your tan on the sun for6 weeks in summer though...

Depending on where it is (I'm thinking of Australia?) Then Skype may not be a realistic option anyway.

Thankfully this probably won't be allowed to happen. He's not the dad of the year, but he's not bad enough to make it on for you to do this to the relationship.

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy

I think you’re highly unlikely to win and thank god for that, this is really not an ok approach.

He may not be an ideal dad but he’s not terrible, they have regular contact. You want to strip them of a relationship with their father, as well as strip them of a relationship with their siblings and wider family. As their siblings grow up these relationships will be so important for them, and taking them abroad denies them the ability to have this.

Sorry but reading your posts it is all about you. Yes there are places overseas where life is cheaper and prettier, however you have children and their needs trump your fantasy idea of life in a prettier place. You seem totally unrealistic about what life abroad would involve, you’d have no support system and I doubt it would be easier.

You write about them having a relationship with their father as being a strain on them. This is BS and a court would savage you for this approach. You are also clearly annoyed about his having a new family. His relationship with his children is the only important part of your past with him, you come across as quite bitter and like you don’t support their relationship with their dad.

I’d also seriously consider what the children will think of you in the future—if their relationship with their dad goes downhill after you move, they will (rightly) blame you for this.

I don't agree . You have a mother here who is wanting to better their lives and is willing to take a chance with this . The same naysayers tell me that I was "lucky" to live abroad and "lucky" to be in a good financial position now - eh no ! You do it by getting off your backside and taking risks . Getting added on as an aside to 5 other children one day a week as opposed to a different life abroad ? Their father should have thought a bit more about them before he started this huge new family.

I suppose I'd reflect on how much this is a power move in your part. That you don't like feeling he has any control over you and your boys so you're moving to sever the relationship. But from the kids point of view those are their half-siblings they will miss out on forming a relationship with. And they very well may resent you as adults for taking away the chance to form those relationships. It's hard going OP but I think you need to stay and support your kids relationship with their father and half-siblings.

I think you're also under estimating how hard it would be for the kids to acclimatise to a new country and then the reverse culture shock of coming back especially if they get used to a cushy private school out there and get dumped back into a comp here. It could be very hard indeed.

“You do it by getting off your backside and taking risks”

Sorry but the only real “risk” I can see OP taking here is in the relationships the children have with their family. Other than hot weather, it seems the main benefit for her is separating them from family.

The "risk“ (or rather almost guaranteed negative impact on the children's relationships) is not worth it here!

This is a mum who has almost the whole responsibility of providing for and caring for these children on her shoulders. People criticising the OP might want to remember that. She's the one who's stepped up for these kids. The one who actually parents them.

If she can't provide them with a decent quality of life here (and it sounds like they're struggling), she needs to do what she can to give them a better start in life. Their relationship with their dad, important as it is, doesn't justify making these kids stay in a stressful, materially disadvantageous situation. Especially as the dad doesn't really have room for these kids in his life.

Thank you to those who have given me great advice and insight. Not everyone is going to approve and support or even understand the reasons for doing something like this and that's okay as well. I know what I want to get out of this for myself and children and even if it doesn't go to plan I know that the decision was made for the right reasons.

It's funny how selective and judgemental people can be. I know if I had posted the exact same details as I have but yet the decision I was making was leaving the children with a disinterested dad so I can go abroad on my own to work the same people calling me a bad mum for taking the kids away from their dad would be calling me a terrible mother for leaving the children with a dad who is emotionally unavailable and detached. Unfortunately as a mother you can never win unlike dads who just need to pay maintenance and see their kids one day a week to win nr dad of the year. At the end of the day I will have to be accountable for the actions and decisions I make so its better I do things I actually believe in rather than what other people find acceptable.

Any major life change will always involve some risk. I don't want to live afraid to make a wrong move. Getting divorced has shown me you can always start over.

My children won't be little forever so I have to enjoy them while I can. Those saying I can do this when they are older etc well can you guarantee me that I will live that long to be able to do this later. Also they may have no desire to move abroad with me when they are older. Right now schooling wise they are flexible. It would be disastrous to move them in secondary when they are doing gcse or when they are doing a levels. So actually your just telling me to give up on this completely.

I don't believe women should give up their ambitions and goals when they become mothers because it creates either a lot of resentment towards your children or a huge sense of entitlement. I know friends whose mothers sacrificed everything for their children and when they became adults developed a lot of bitterness for all the opportunities they gave up for their children who now they are older have their own lives to live. I don't want to be that kind of mother who feels like my kids owe me something or that I couldn't achieve what I wanted because of them.

Similarly I don't believe I will destroy their relationship with their dad or siblings. Most people don't live with their extended family that doesn't mean their children don't enjoy spending time with family or feel loved by them. My children see their cousins about every 6 months and whenever they meet up again its as if they had never been apart. They once went to visit relatives abroad and within half a day they were best of friends with all the children there. I think a lot of you who are against this decision are underestimating how resilient and adaptable children are. It will be an adventure for them and give them a chance to make friends from all over the world. They don't have a strong attachment right now to either their school or friends at school. They will miss family as will I but at the chance to give them a better life I think we can tolerate that for a short time. What I can't do as a previous poster said is just accept that life will be shit and they will just have to live with it. Yes the situation may not be great in terms of their dad but I can make a bad situation better by helping them to develop a positive frame of mind so they are not reliant on their dad for validation or emotional support which he will struggle to give them.

I honestly believe this is the best opportunity to convince their dad. I think this will offer him a way to reduce contact while saving face. He may make more of an effort with them if he sees them less. Distance makes the heart grow fonder and all that. Someone said I resented him starting a new family. Its not that it's the power imbalance. He could literally at any moment cut contact and there is nothing I could do. Whilst I am having to base my decisions around this one day a week. Those saying I am only thinking of myself are being unfair. I show up everyday and every time for them whilst he picks them up when he is bothered and the rest of the week ignores them completely. Sorry but I have higher expectations of a responsible parent then that.

I may not be able to act on this as I do need his consent or a court order anyway but nothing is gained if you don't even try.

I think you've been given a bit of a hard time on here, OP, and I fully agree about how quick people are to fete a man when he meets the minimum standard for parenting. Very fucking tedious. I don't know whether you're right to want to do this, or what your chances are, but you do sound like a good and loving mum.

Fair enough OP. in 141 responses in this thread your posts haven't changed at all, just repeated exactly the same arguments despite many people giving really good insights and advice. Youve had advice from divorced parents, from children of divorced parents, from children of parents that moved away and from posters that have themselves moved abroad to live but you still don't think anyones experience is relevant.

Clearly this is what you want to do so just go and do it. You will obviously regret it forever if you don't. I'm not sure what you were looking for from this thread.

I know if I had posted the exact same details as I have but yet the decision I was making was leaving the children with a disinterested dad so I can go abroad on my own to work the same people calling me a bad mum for taking the kids away from their dad would be calling me a terrible mother for leaving the children with a dad who is emotionally unavailable and detached.

Yep that is correct. That is similarly as selfish.

@Nc135

I know if I had posted the exact same details as I have but yet the decision I was making was leaving the children with a disinterested dad so I can go abroad on my own to work the same people calling me a bad mum for taking the kids away from their dad would be calling me a terrible mother for leaving the children with a dad who is emotionally unavailable and detached.

Yep that is correct. That is similarly as selfish.

Yep.

Luckily they aren’t the only two choices here.

and I fully agree about how quick people are to fete a man when he meets the minimum standard for parenting. Very fucking tedious

Nobody is ‘feting’ the father of her children. They are simply saying that she needs to think of the relationship her children have and will have with their father. To take them away from their father and deny them that is maybe NOT in the best interests of the children. And for OP to say she doesn’t want to feel like her kids owe her something in the future if she doesn’t do what she wants - then wow. Just wow.

Yep no one is sticking up for the dad here, he does sound woefully lacking. People's objections are about what's in the child's best interests and a lot of people think that maintaining a relationship with a parent is more important than what the OP wants to do.

They've only got one dad, even a wonderful stepfather can never fill that spot. The kids need to work out how they feel about their dad in time not have that choice and opportunity to understand such a big part of their history taken away.

You do have to make sacrifices when you become a parent, we all do, that's life. It's not about being limited because of him it's about being limited to do right by your kids.

I'm invested in this topic as I've seen what happened to a close family member who was taken away from one parent to live on the other side of the world, which I shared upthread. It's all so sad for the kids in these scenarios

But it's not necessarily just the OP making sacrifices by not going. The kids could be sacrificing a materially better standard of living and a much less stressful lifestyle. That needs to be weighed against their relationship with an uninvolved disengaged father. They only get one childhood and contact with their father is a very small and not entirely happy part of these kids' lives. So the OP is not necessarily putting her own interests before the children's.

I completely agree and understand why you want to do this @Floatingaway2017 but id be very surprised if youd get permission if it went to court. I think maybe you should manage your expectations and not get your hopes up too high, but by all means discuss it with him and see if you can get him on board

I don't think you're being selfish to want this OP. But I think their is a very real danger it will end your DC relationship with their Dad. That may end up having a significant negative impact on your relationship with your DC. Theirs a good chance they will blame you for that if it happens.

Disregarding the comment that he is a “narcissist” because apparently everyone people don’t have a good relationship with on mn is a narcissist these days so the term has become pretty meaningless, if this man took you to court for residency of the children and won, would you go without them?

I know someone who did just that, moved abroad and her ex took her to court, and you know what one. Thing on his side was? The fact he had other children which meant that not only would the child’s relationship with their father be impacted but also with their siblings and being a part of a family unit. This despite the fact that the mother had been the resident parent. And she left and went to live abroad, got remarried there and stated that it was ok, while he was still young they would have to go with that, but once he was older they would try again and then he would be coming over to live with her. Fast forward to a few years later when he was old enough to be involved in the decision and he had decided that he was settled living with his dad and didn’t want to change things.

Ask him by all means, but if he says no it’s unlikely a court will allow the children to be taken abroad. Not least because you will have no support network over there, and a material lifestyle isn’t going to be seen as a better lifestyle for the children when they have one parent in another country and another having to work all hours to support them while they are presumably just passed round various childcare settings.