How do I get ex to agree with me moving kids abroad

[Floatingaway2017]

Hello

I have been applying for jobs abroad as it has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience. I am looking for a change for myself and children who are in primary school at the moment. I am doing okay as a single mum in the UK but life is stressful and busy. We are always running around from school to work and living in a big city life is expensive.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life. I really feel this is the best thing for kids and I at the moment. This move is not permanent and I plan for us to move back within a few years (3-5 years maximum) unless we absolutely love it there and don't want to move back.

How do I approach my ex about giving me permission to do this. He has parental responsibility like me. He sees kids one day a week (no overnights) and pays maintenance. He doesn't involve himself in their schooling or childcare. Doesn't take them to any extracurricular clubs. He has very young children with his current partner as well as stepchildren. He is not really that interested or invested in my children's upbringing or welfare so I don't think it would be a massive disruption to him if we moved. However he has narcissistic tendencies and may just try to thwart my plans because he can. He has seemed to become more indifferent towards me though which I am hoping may work in my favour in convincing him to agree to this.

Similarly I feel like he doesn't add anything significant to my children's life that they would miss if we went abroad and actually the wonderful new experiences they would have would compensate for this. During the week they never ask to speak to him and no longer get disappointed if they can't see him on the weekends for any reason. Basically he is ambivalent and so are they.

I'm happy to bring them during holidays to visit their dad and support their relationship with his family in other ways. I am 60-70% convinced he will agree but I am not sure how to broach the matter in a way that will tip it more in my favour. Please can you advise especially if you have dealt with a narcisstic coparent or been in this situation.

[Nc135]

@KarmaNoMore agree. And also for the kids. I am remarried but would never dream of taking my kids away from their dad. However much I wanted to for me. The kids have no idea what it means. It means they grow up in some of their formative years without a relationship with their father. However much you don’t like him now OP - it’s not all about you when you have children.

[Nc135]

You should do it for your children's benefit.

He didn't stick around after he left you to help raise the kids, he just decided to knock up someone else. That's not being a father, that's being selfish.

Men like this don't really care about their children. He probably likes seeing them once a week because he's sick of his other sprogs. How can he afford all these children?

Don't let this scumbag control you and your children.

This post can’t be for real. For so many reasons.

[BillMasen]

@legopolicelady

You should do it for your children's benefit.

He didn't stick around after he left you to help raise the kids, he just decided to knock up someone else. That's not being a father, that's being selfish.

Men like this don't really care about their children. He probably likes seeing them once a week because he's sick of his other sprogs. How can he afford all these children?

Don't let this scumbag control you and your children.

This post shows the worst side of mumsnet.

[Nc135]

@BillMasen agree. I am shocked with that post.

[KarmaNoMore]

@nc135 I have seen a case where the dad was openly abusive, the mum spent £60,000 in 2 years trying to move back to her country with their kids, presented a lot of evidence about the abuse and her ability to support her kids and herself abroad and... the court still said no.

[youvegottenminuteslynn]

@legopolicelady

You should do it for your children's benefit.

He didn't stick around after he left you to help raise the kids, he just decided to knock up someone else. That's not being a father, that's being selfish.

Men like this don't really care about their children. He probably likes seeing them once a week because he's sick of his other sprogs. How can he afford all these children?

Don't let this scumbag control you and your children.

This is truly a really shocking post. Bloody hell.

[Viviennemary]

I think it's quite selfish of you to want to uproot them from their father, their home and their friends. And travel might be restricted for quite some time due to Covid. That's my opinion but go ahead if you think it's best for you and your children.

[Oswin]

@londonscalling

Can you imagine the reactions if a man was writing this and saying he was going to take his kids abroad and they wouldn't see their mum every week?

Bullshit. If a man said his ex only saw their children once a week and didn't even have a bed for them, the replies would be agreement.
This mans a scumbag. Hes not an equal parent. He can only be aresed to see his kids once a week.
I see my friends kids more than this.
I have my friends children sleep over more than this shit dad has his own children.

[User24689]

As someone who spent 8 years living abroad, I wouldn't. Don't underestimate how hard it is to come back. My children really struggled and so did I.
Are grandparents in their lives? My daughter was the only child in her nursery who had no grandparents at the 'grandparents morning tea'. It was hard being on our own without any extended family. Not for physical support, we had our children abroad so never knew any different. But we felt very isolated.
Coming back for holidays sounds reasonable but is actually a nightmare. You won't be able to come back for every school holiday because you probably won't have enough leave. Holidays in the UK will be exhausting because everyone will want to see you and the kids and you will have to make sure the kids have the entire time with their dad.
A lot of it depends if we are talking eg Spain or Australia. We were the latter. It used to take us weeks to recover from our trips back.
Aside from all of this, and most importantly, you are potentially removing your children's father from their lives. You will need to justify that to them one day because they will ask.

[SerialNChanger]

If he is a true narcissist then he will need to feel that there is something in it for him, not the children. I.e. a nice holiday option for him (although maybe that’s unlikely with another family with lots of children) or less child maintenance.

Or he will need to feel like it would be an inconvenience for him if he doesn’t consent to you taking your children. In other words you need to call his bluff and say you’ve been offered a contract abroad at short notice and that your childen will have to live with him. This is what everyone told me to do with my ex-H, but I didn’t do it and went through the courts which took 2 years. They gave me permission in the end.

Do anything you can to avoid court with a narcissist because they HAVE to win and also need to save face in front of the court.

My case was different to yours though because I was fighting to get back home to the UK.

There are benefits and disadvantages to both staying in the UK and moving abroad. Consider OP that you could meet someone new and remarry in the new country and have more children, then you may find it difficult to move back to the UK especially in the case of a split if that dad refuses permission.

[VivaMiltonKeynes]

@upthewolves

As someone who spent 8 years living abroad, I wouldn't. Don't underestimate how hard it is to come back. My children really struggled and so did I.
Are grandparents in their lives? My daughter was the only child in her nursery who had no grandparents at the 'grandparents morning tea'. It was hard being on our own without any extended family. Not for physical support, we had our children abroad so never knew any different. But we felt very isolated.
Coming back for holidays sounds reasonable but is actually a nightmare. You won't be able to come back for every school holiday because you probably won't have enough leave. Holidays in the UK will be exhausting because everyone will want to see you and the kids and you will have to make sure the kids have the entire time with their dad.
A lot of it depends if we are talking eg Spain or Australia. We were the latter. It used to take us weeks to recover from our trips back.
Aside from all of this, and most importantly, you are potentially removing your children's father from their lives. You will need to justify that to them one day because they will ask.

On the other hand @Floatingaway2017 I have known MANY ex pat children and most have gone on to have good careers based on their private school education. It obviously depends where you are but if eg it is in the Middle East then you will have some home help to cover hours BUT clubs and sports are so prolific in these schools that there may be no need .

[User24689]

@vivamiltonkeynes I may have totally missed what industry the OP is in.

We were not 'ex pats', my DH took a job working for a foreign company based in that country. No private school, home help etc! That is definitely not a given for all employment opportunities abroad!

[VivaMiltonKeynes]

She is talking about an international school I believe.

[RayOfSunshine2013]

Id go and then worry about his permission later. I’m doing exactly the same - he has threatened court etc but we’ll have gone before court dates are arranged and I have agreed to return for school holidays.

[PoorMansPaulaRadcliffe]

God, I've got a ghastly feeling this other opportunity is Dubai . . .

[Nc135]

Id go and then worry about his permission later. I’m doing exactly the same - he has threatened court etc but we’ll have gone before court dates are arranged and I have agreed to return for school holidays.

This is cruel.

[BillMasen]

@RayOfSunshine2013

Id go and then worry about his permission later. I’m doing exactly the same - he has threatened court etc but we’ll have gone before court dates are arranged and I have agreed to return for school holidays.

Ffs another post that shows a horrible side of some posters on here.

Really? And a bloke doing this would be ok?

[Lightsontbut]

@RayOfSunshine2013

If the dad has parental responsibility that would be illegal

childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/abduction/

[Techway]

@RayOfSunshine2013, this is deemed very serious and she risks being forced to return and potentially risk residency as a judge would view this as deliberately depriving children of a parent.

[RayOfSunshine2013]

[quote Lightsontbut]@RayOfSunshine2013

If the dad has parental responsibility that would be illegal

childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/abduction/[/quote]
What a shame I suppose that’s what I have to come then.. if he can actually be bothered to follow up the threats

[Rgy3250999]

You sound very sure that this is right for them, but is this more about it being right for you than them? You could move out of the city to anywhere in the UK and give them a different life with new schools. Expecting them to move to another country (presumably with another language) and then move them back again in a few years is risky. What happens if they hate that and you’ve sorted yourself a job and living accommodation - would you just return home or would they be stuck with the decision?

You mention the relationship with their dad but what about his family. You are depriving them of having a relationship with your children and vice versa. As family get older, they might not be around any longer, when you choose to bring them home.

[User74575762]

I know where you are coming from and hear what you say OP, however I thought I'd describe my own experience to provide another perspective.

My parents split up before I started school and Mum moved back to her home town, about 80 miles away. Allegedly Dad at one point during the divorce negotiations mooted just dropping all contact with us but in the end we saw him for half of all school holidays and every 2 or 3 Sundays in between.
He wasn't very emotionally involved and didn't really spend 1-1 time with us, rather, there would be "family outings", walks etc that we would all go on. He remarried quickly and we had stepsiblings from that who he adopted.
So, was he the perfect Dad? No. Too emotionally detached. But did I grow up knowing him and having a relationship with him? Well yes (as much as he had a relationship with anyone!). Did I get to know my auntie and uncles, cousins, (half)siblings, grandparents, family friends on his side? Yes. Did I get to have an appreciation of how I fitted into the world by knowing both sides of the family? Yes. Did I have somewhere to go when I wasn't getting on super well with my Mum & SD? Yes.. Do I still value all this now even though he himself has passed away? Yes.

At one point he got a short contract abroad and took my stepmum and the kids with him. It suited him but SM & their kids hated it. Missed their home and friends, didn't speak the language, frequently unwell.


I think I saying that it may be that even though their Dad is exactly as you say it's still in the children's interest to get to see him frequently, rather than not see him for months on end, which is a huge period of time for even older schoolchildren. Also that there may be aspects of moving abroad that they find really really tough even though you yourself are around more and their school is nicer.

It's a tricky line to walk.

[AbiBrown]

Some people set the bar very low for what makes a passable father. Going from what you've written, his behaviour towards your children is awful and deeply irresponsible and he doesn't seem bothered about making them feel at home or welcome. So it doesn't seem to be in their best interest to hold that as a more important commitment than giving them the opportunity of living somewhere nice and the opportunity it represents.

[Floatingaway2017]

Yes Abi I agree with you that it is in their best interest to have the opportunities that living abroad would give them over staying here and having a lower quality of life just to see their dad one day a week. Even if I decided to move within the UK rather than abroad he could oppose that as well. I have known a few mums who had to spend thousands in court to be able to move to another city for work with their children because of court orders from their children's dads preventing them from doing so. At least moving abroad would have a lot more benefits I could point to for the children.

I think for some people if other people's experiences don't fit their world view its very hard for them to accept another perspective. So for example if you have never lived abroad or if you live a priveledged/comfortable life in the UK it is hard to understand or believe that living abroad may offer a better standard of living for some people. Similarly if you are a committed and loving parent or if you have only been exposed to dads who are like that it's hard to imagine that there are parents who are emotionally detached from their children. Even if you have come across men like that it's difficult to understand how damaging that can be for their children unless you have seen the emotional turmoil it can create. It has been encouraging and heartening to see support from parents that have experience of dealing with narcisstic/disinterested dads as it gives me confidence that I am making the right decision for them.

I am not saying I intend to keep them away from their dad permanently. After reading User745's post I can see that maintaining that relationship is beneficial and I will work hard to do that making sure to come back at least 3 times a year. If you think about it a term is about 6 to 7 weeks so if I bring the children back for a week in their termly holidays then that would be the current contact arrangement of one day a week concentrated in to that school holiday. So if its one week during half term then that's 7 weeks worth of contact. It would be the same hours just altogether.

When I gave birth to my dc I wanted to give my children the best childhood I could give them. I don't think I should lower my expectations or standards in terms of what I want for them just to maintain a status quo that doesn't serve their best interest. Many of you arguing against this are ignoring the negative impacts I have told you that contact with their dad as it currently is has had on my dc. So whose benefit is staying for theirs or his?

I am not planning to move there permanently. But even a short time like 2 years or so I know can be a positive experience for not only me but also them giving them a different perspective on life. Reading accounts of people who have been to international schools and lived abroad during their childhood shows me that it can teach them skills, give them opportunities and be an advantage when they are older. I don't believe I have to sacrifice my dreams and goals for them to be happy and secure. Their dad has other children to focus on or do things differently with but these are my only ones and I won't compromise on their wellbeing or the type of childhood I want them to have.

[LilyWater]

Gosh if this is real, these posts are so sad. It's all about you. Not about what's truly best for your children. Why on earth would you selfishly uproot them in any case, and then secondly take them away from their dad so they're unable to maintain any meaningful relationship with their own parent.

If you want to move abroad and spread your wings, wait until they're 18 then go then. If the opportunity is going to be that 'enriching' for them then they'll surely come with you.

Thankfully, courts usually block parents like you from taking away children from the other parent.