How do I get ex to agree with me moving kids abroad

[Floatingaway2017]

Hello

I have been applying for jobs abroad as it has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience. I am looking for a change for myself and children who are in primary school at the moment. I am doing okay as a single mum in the UK but life is stressful and busy. We are always running around from school to work and living in a big city life is expensive.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life. I really feel this is the best thing for kids and I at the moment. This move is not permanent and I plan for us to move back within a few years (3-5 years maximum) unless we absolutely love it there and don't want to move back.

How do I approach my ex about giving me permission to do this. He has parental responsibility like me. He sees kids one day a week (no overnights) and pays maintenance. He doesn't involve himself in their schooling or childcare. Doesn't take them to any extracurricular clubs. He has very young children with his current partner as well as stepchildren. He is not really that interested or invested in my children's upbringing or welfare so I don't think it would be a massive disruption to him if we moved. However he has narcissistic tendencies and may just try to thwart my plans because he can. He has seemed to become more indifferent towards me though which I am hoping may work in my favour in convincing him to agree to this.

Similarly I feel like he doesn't add anything significant to my children's life that they would miss if we went abroad and actually the wonderful new experiences they would have would compensate for this. During the week they never ask to speak to him and no longer get disappointed if they can't see him on the weekends for any reason. Basically he is ambivalent and so are they.

I'm happy to bring them during holidays to visit their dad and support their relationship with his family in other ways. I am 60-70% convinced he will agree but I am not sure how to broach the matter in a way that will tip it more in my favour. Please can you advise especially if you have dealt with a narcisstic coparent or been in this situation.

[RiaOverTheRainbow]

If you'd be working similar hours presumably the kids would still spend a lot of time in childcare? What exactly would their 'improved lifestyle' entail?

[springydaff]

I was going to suggest similar to bobbyshafto. Basically, you have to ask /beg for the opposite of what you want ime.

It's high risk but if you said you'd had enough of taking the lions share of parenting and you want to have a break for a bit, could he have them - well, the result is predictable. High risk though, as I said.

That's just one option. Or you could, as a pp said, focus 100% on this opportunity for the children, not a peep about yourself.

Fwiw my kids had a narc dad and I asked for the very opposite of what I wanted, worked every single time.

But tbh for all my dreams of doing this or that, of getting their shit dad out of our lives, the reality was that I had to stay put.

[SillyOldMummy]

I really don't follow your logic OP. You are not going to be reducing your hours in the new job, and yet one of your main reasons for relocating is being stressed and lacking time for the kids so much that they complain - I fail to see how you are really going to improve the kids' lives this way. Surely things will be worse not better in a new country - you will be completely without support, it's incredibly hard work moving house let alone moving to a new country. Sounds to me you are being idealistic in the extreme.

Also I do think your anger at your ex might be interfering with your thinking. It sounds like he is a waste of space in many ways, but he IS still in contact and paying support. I just don't think it is fair to deny contact (Skype really is not the same) and remove the kids from the country.

I don't want to doubt you when you say he is a narcissist but he has obviously got himself an expensive life with all these kids to support. You can't really blame him for failing to provide a bedroom for each child, when he's paying child support. What would you have him do?

To me, your posts sound a bit manipulative and scary - is there a chance your ex doesn't ask about the kids because you prefer NC, and you terrify the living bejeezers out of him?! If you are horrid to each other perhaps he thinks it's better all round to be less directly involved. Would you really want him turning up to parents evening etc? Your anger at him comes reeling off the page, I don't know how well you conceal it but believe me little kids pick up a lot and might think you are happier to hear they didn't like their weekend visit to daddy. I would also agree with pp that being tired can just mean they were over stimulated, so maybe just have another quiet word with your ex.

Also sounds like the kids have a relationship with ex-MIL. Shame to disrupt that, or are you on such good terms she could visit (can she afford to)?

If you can afford to reduce your hours, I would say that will make a bigger positive impact on your life than moving overseas.

[heyday]

You have had a very varied response which I'm sure has given you plenty to think about. How do your children feel about a potential move abroad? Their feelings are paramount in this decision. If they are in favour and keen to go then that would be the right time to start the discussion with your ex. I doubt that he will instantly agree to it but if the children are very pro moving then he will probably come round to the idea given time. If they are very much against the idea then it will need to be dropped from your plans. Good luck with it all.

[Floatingaway2017]

I don't think it's really fair to blame me for his disinterest or negligence. He is an adult after all and has parental responsibility too so I can't block him from attending anything or accessing any information he wants regarding them. I'm sure he would say it's my fault he doesn't get involved. That I make it difficult because I don't help him. He would prefer I call him up make a song and dance about him going to appointments and school functions, book parents evening appointments for him etc. In fact when I do tell him to take the boys to things when they are with him he does it. However I'm not his personal assistant and if he doesn't consider it important enough to warrant him keeping track of or learning then that is on him not me.

As for being NC I have every right to do that and yes it is easier for me. He was emotionally, financially, spiritually and when I left in the end verbally and physically abusive to me. Why would I want to be friendly to someone who had treated me like that. I am civil that is it. People can blame me for getting in to a relationship with someone like him but I was very young when I met him and he took advantage of my naivety. To top that off he has never apologised or accepted he did anything wrong to me. It may be wrong of me to say this but until he does I don't want him to ever feel comfortable to be in the same vicinity as me so if he is scared of me (which I doubt) then good.

For those asking me about hours I don't know enough as it is still very early days in terms of job application process but I have heard from others that there is a much better work life balance. The pay is higher but more than that it is the additional benefits that would make a difference to quality of life. Plus better weather and more beautiful surroundings. Those saying it is not for my childrens benefit I would say environment has a massive impact on mental health. As their mother I can see there is a strain on them that if I don't deal with now could lead to problems in the future. I have spoken to dad and he claims they are fine with him but my children have told me it is because they are too scared to tell him how they feel. My ds told me he is scared of him more than anyone. Now some people might say that is a good thing as he is their dad but from my own experience of having a scary dad I know that will transform in to resentment and anger. There is more opportunities for sporting activities at the school they would be going to that I could not afford in the UK. Smaller class sizes. More beautiful surroundings and better weather. Honestly I would be doing him a favour as he can focus on his new babies knowing that his kids are having a great time.

He doesn't need to give them each a room but the fact that he had expanded his family in the past few years without creating space for them in his home is a sign they are just visitors who are tolerated whilst they are there but are not truly a part of that home.

[Wiredforsound]

It not really disinterest or negligence.though, is it? He sees them weekly and pays maintenance. In his shoes there’s no way I would want or allow it. Would you want them to stay with him while you went abroad and had them during the holidays?

[AbiBrown]

Indeed, I was going to say that's it's not about working hours, it's about not feeling stressed all the time, shorter commutes, more accessible and cheaper activities and entertainment and beautiful weather and surroundings! That makes a huge difference. Your kids will thank you. Maybe I'm biased because I've lived it and am already considering moving abroad for my daughter's benefit. But at least on paper it sounds so much better for them than putting up with a so so school, stressful lifestyle, stressed out mum and fewer les accessible opportunities all for a father that they are likely to just want to stop seeing altogether when they can.

[MessAllOver]

@Floatingaway2017. I would think very hard about what the reality of life abroad will be. It sounds like life is very tough right now but please don't let that push you into making a decision you might later regret .

On the contact issue, I'm largely with you. He doesn't sound like the worst father in the world (he pays maintenance and sees them regularly). However, it doesn't sound like he really has the children's interests at heart either. Going on what you've said (and I'm aware that's only one side of the story), it doesn't sound like the present contact arrangements are particularly in the children's best interests, if they come back feeling second-best, unsettled and angry.

For all those of you saying the OP is immediately a terrible mother for wanting to take the children away from their father, please remember that non-resident parents don't have an automatic right to contact. Parents don't have rights, only responsibilities. The question is always - what is in the children's best interests? Usually, that is frequent, high-quality contact where there is an engaged and involved NRP who is emotionally sensitive to the children's needs. However, other factors are also important, such as the resident parent's well-being and ability to parent effectively, material quality of life and having a settled home. If the OP is so stressed that she cannot parent her children effectively and a move to her ex or a 50/50 arrangement is not an option, a court is likely to take this into account in deciding whether to give her permission to relocate.

[whiteroseredrose]

Your DC see their father every week at the moment. They also see their Grandmother. They do have relationships even if not what you'd want.

My DF remarried and had 4 more DC. He lived nearly 3 hours away so I only saw him in school holidays. There was never any doubt that my DF loved me but it was a very busy house and for a while I felt a bit awkward there. I didn't always want to go.

But I'm glad that I did. As I got older our relationship developed and grew. We spoke regularly when I was an adult. I also adore my siblings. I would have missed a lot if my DM had let me not go all those years ago.

Just another thing to consider. Ex and MIL are also potential support for you and them if something happens. And accidents do happen with DC unfortunately.

If you're abroad alone and a significant flight away things would not be so simple. You'd have to cope alone. Hope that strangers would step in as your DC wouldn't have family to help.

Your ex may or may not be awkward about things. If I were in his shoes it would depend where you were going. A country with democracy would be OK. The Middle East would be a definite no.

[DM1209]

OP, as a lone parent in the exact same position as you in terms of the disinterested negligent father, I say if you can remove them from a toxic environment, do it.

Would you allow a stranger or a friend to emotionally abuse or neglect your children? No, you wouldn't so why is this ok, because he's their biological father!? Hell no! What message does that give your sons and how does that setup their view of their own future relationships?


Some of the hysterical responses on here are laughable and clearly these individuals do not understand how utterly soul crushing it is to deal with someone like your ex, but then to also consistently manage then mental and emotions wellbeing of your babies because of it. It is exhausting!!!


You know that this man will not improve and he will in fact only be around his children on his terms. Maintenence does not make him a good father, it is the LAW and he has to pay it. He gets no points for that.


Go for your new opportunity, do not stall your progress and be held hostage because of your ex-husband.
Do not allow him to continue to neglect your children because he can't be bothered to be more active in their lives and please tell him to get a hobby!!!! There are other things one can do with their free time other than banging out more kids.

[napody]

Do you still chat to exMIL then? Do you trust her? Could it be worth testing the water and asking her for advice?

[Floatingaway2017]

Yes Abi that is exactly it. It's about enjoying their childhood and living a happier life rather than just struggling to survive. I am in a better position then most but deeply unhappy and unfulfilled currently and I need a change just as much as they do. I have mentioned it to my kids in the past to see what they think and they were quite excited about it. They did say they would miss their family (dad and extended family) but I think they would enjoy the adventure. It would also be nice for family to visit them abroad. They are not particularly invested in their school so they won't miss that though I probably will.

MessAllOver I have been thinking about this for a long time. I had to rule it out before as ex would never have agreed but I feel now is the right time as he reduced contact after birth of his dc so I think he is a bit overwhelmed at home. Other things have also lined up to make this the best time to do this if I am going to do it all. I can't do this when the kids are older as I wouldn't move them in secondary.

DM exactly what I was thinking. One of the big benefits is getting them away from a situation that is causing them emotional harm. Their dad has thrown a lot at them to adjust to and it has taken its toll on one of them in particular. He is the one who is the most excited about going away and I feel he would get a lot from the experience.

Napody I do have a good relationship with ex mil. Other than me I trust her the most with my kids because she is very attentive and loving to them. I have thought about speaking to her first to see her reaction and then taking it to ex. But my worry is if she is against it (which she might be because she misses the children) it would be much harder to convince their dad.

[londonscalling]

Can you imagine the reactions if a man was writing this and saying he was going to take his kids abroad and they wouldn't see their mum every week?

[Branleuse]

I do feel for you, as I would have loved to move to france when the children were little, but Id never have been able to get my ex to agree to it, and since he saw ds1 regularly, it wouldnt have stood up in court.
If I were you, id put off your plans until the children have left home, or are old enough to decide they want to come. Thats just how it works.
If it had been that you were FROM another country and wanted to return home for family support, you possibly could have argued that it was in childrens interest, but You wont be able to argue that its in childrens interests to be moved far from their father just because you want to.
I think if you were able to, youd likely have to prove that you could keep up adequate contact, at your own expense, such as you flying them back monthly maybe

[Myotherusernamewastakenagain]

@londonscalling

Can you imagine the reactions if a man was writing this and saying he was going to take his kids abroad and they wouldn't see their mum every week?

And used the phrase "narcissistic tendencies" to paint the ex in a bad light to get everyone onside.

[omg35]

I have quite a lot of sympathy for your situation OP, as a resident parent with a similarly disinterested ex (though mine only sees my kids in the school hols, not once a week) Youre right that it is unfair that he has the power to live his life as he wants and you need his permission to make a similar change to yours. I'd be really careful though. You're making it very clear that you don't think he inputs anything in your children's life and that's not true. He may not have an ideal living situation for them but he does see them and make the effort to maintain a relationship. He may have been the worst ex in the world but he's not necessarily the worst dad. You may have to sacrifice this dream but unfortunately that's being a responsible parent and making decisions in your children's best interests rather than yours. And their best interests is to maintain a relationship with their dad and siblings

[NeverTwerkNaked]

I think you are setting yourself up for a horrible battle that you shouldn't get info and are highly unlikely to win.

I don't think the court will see things the same way you do.

Sorry. I get that it it shit. But the courts have an almost blinkered focus on pushing contact even where (as in my children's case) the the parent is dangerously abusive.

[ILoveYoga]

Many many people do this in the expat world. Often the patent who had moved abroad will pay for the travel expenses for the children to visit the parent in the home country. If the children aren’t able to stay with that parent, then the expat parent would accompany the children to home country (at their expense) to facilitate annual or whatever the arrangement is for visitation (quarterly, twice a year etc). School Holidays would also be split and again, travel costs met by expat patent

Living in another part of the world can often be tremendous learning opportunities for the children. If in an expat school, they’d be moving with other children who do thus too and it’s the norm for them.

I do know one lady who is in IK on fabulous expat package where her children are being privately educated at the cost of her employer. They have a far better standard of living here in UK as in their home country.

Her ex was not invoked much in the children’s lives snd had moved i to new woman, new family. He was happy to allow her to leave provided she no longer claimed child maintenance. As her salary was significantly more, she did so. Big gamble if she’d lost this job but it panned out for them.

She took the children every summer to visit their father but eventually he would cancel or postpone and the children in last years had no desire to see him preferring to see other family members in their home country.so there is risk of relationship break down.

Conversely, another lady I know was effectively stranded here when her DH was posted here on exist package and he left her whole living I the UK. 15 years later she’s still here as are her kids and their father comes to visit, still pays child maintenance.

Just be prepared to offer to pay for travel for visits. Consider reduction in maintenance as sweetener if you can afford it

[Silentplikebath]

@Floatingaway2017 I completely understand why you are considering this new opportunity but I suspect that your ex will never agree to it. I know he hasn’t been the father that you would want him to be but, if he usually sees the DC every week, you are unlikely to win this battle if he takes it to court. The fact that your DC also have a grandmother and half siblings here, with no family connections in your new destination, may also not go in your favour. I’m sorry to sound so negative but I think you need to be 99% prepared for a no from your ex.

[KarmaNoMore]

Just mention it to him and see how he takes it, and then plan your next step according to his reaction.

If he takes you to court over this, forget about it... by the time the court makes a decision over this the job (and subsequent) will be gone, you will have spent £10,000s in solicitors fees and the court would say that as the kids are then settled in their school, neighbourhood, the current contact, whatever it is not in their best interests to take them abroad.

A removal of jurisdiction process is a long winded difficult and expensive one even if you have better reason to move abroad than improving your lifestyle. It can easily take years and still fail.

[Nc135]

Wow I can’t believe the majority of the responses on here. You are wanting to take your children to another continent away from their father who sees them weekly? And loads of people think that’s ok? If I were him I wouldn’t let it happen and neither will the courts. He is your children’s father and they and he have the right to a relationship.

[Princessposie]

Money? Tell him that he would be able to have a break from paying maintenance as money tends to be a motivator for lots of people.

[KarmaNoMore]

I thought the same @nc135, and some of the responses are very naive. As if the courts were going to grant removal of jurisdiction to the mother just because the mother thinks dad is not as devoted to the children as she is.

[KarmaNoMore]

That’s another one... with the recommended child maintenance percentage: 20% of net salary pro rata (calculated according to nights spent over with nrp) minus deductions for 5 children in non resident parent’s household... how many pounds will he be saving by letting them go? Not much I can assure you.

[legopolicelady]

You should do it for your children's benefit.

He didn't stick around after he left you to help raise the kids, he just decided to knock up someone else. That's not being a father, that's being selfish.

Men like this don't really care about their children. He probably likes seeing them once a week because he's sick of his other sprogs. How can he afford all these children?

Don't let this scumbag control you and your children.