How do I get ex to agree with me moving kids abroad

[Floatingaway2017]

Hello

I have been applying for jobs abroad as it has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience. I am looking for a change for myself and children who are in primary school at the moment. I am doing okay as a single mum in the UK but life is stressful and busy. We are always running around from school to work and living in a big city life is expensive.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life. I really feel this is the best thing for kids and I at the moment. This move is not permanent and I plan for us to move back within a few years (3-5 years maximum) unless we absolutely love it there and don't want to move back.

How do I approach my ex about giving me permission to do this. He has parental responsibility like me. He sees kids one day a week (no overnights) and pays maintenance. He doesn't involve himself in their schooling or childcare. Doesn't take them to any extracurricular clubs. He has very young children with his current partner as well as stepchildren. He is not really that interested or invested in my children's upbringing or welfare so I don't think it would be a massive disruption to him if we moved. However he has narcissistic tendencies and may just try to thwart my plans because he can. He has seemed to become more indifferent towards me though which I am hoping may work in my favour in convincing him to agree to this.

Similarly I feel like he doesn't add anything significant to my children's life that they would miss if we went abroad and actually the wonderful new experiences they would have would compensate for this. During the week they never ask to speak to him and no longer get disappointed if they can't see him on the weekends for any reason. Basically he is ambivalent and so are they.

I'm happy to bring them during holidays to visit their dad and support their relationship with his family in other ways. I am 60-70% convinced he will agree but I am not sure how to broach the matter in a way that will tip it more in my favour. Please can you advise especially if you have dealt with a narcisstic coparent or been in this situation.

[Thisisworsethananticpated]

Ask , be prepared for a no emotionally
Also have you sought legal advice
Then plan B is stay here but think about how to rearrange life here so it’s not so hectic
I sooooo understand your rationale by the way
Corona has helped me as I work from home
I’m as productive , but see kids so much more
What’s your profession ? If I may ask

[upsidedownwavylegs]

It doesn’t sound like she could remotely prove that as it stands or that it would be the case at all. And even if it was it seems incredibly unlikely that a family court would judge that improvement to outweigh the importance of the children having the continued opportunity for a relationship with their father, siblings and wider family who they see frequently. That’s what family courts are there to uphold. It would be much better for OP to reconcile herself to the fact that this isn’t an option right now and revisit it when her children are much older than to pursue an emotionally and financially costly battle over it. Discussing it with the children before their father has heard anything of it is pretty shocking.

[MessAllOver]

Yes, but let's face it, he might have equal legal responsibility but the OP's the one with day-to-day practical responsibility. So imo she'd have a good chance in court if she could prove that their daily quality of life would be much better and rightly so.

[upsidedownwavylegs]

[quote MessAllOver]@upsidedownwavylegs. But that's the assessment the OP needs to make. I agree it's not clearcut but I object to the assumption that maintaining an unsatisfactory relationship with a fairly uninterested father trumps all other considerations. If the family are living in financially difficult circumstances with the OP working all hours to support them and the kids unhappy at school and unable to do extracurricular activities due to the cost, a move might be in their best interests. Why should they have to live a miserable life just so they can be made available for contact with their dad?[/quote]
It isn’t just the assessment the OP needs to make, because there’s another adult here who has equal legal responsibility for these children and rightly has the power to stop them being moved to another continent. If she wants to have any hope of convincing either him or a court to let her do so then her argument re a better quality of life would have to be a hell of a lot more compelling than it is in this thread.

[upsidedownwavylegs]

@AbiBrown

Well said *@MessAllOver* (especially not when the other parent clearly isn't making any effort and has recreated himself another family).

I don’t call seeing them every weekend making no effort. I’m not about to nominate him for parent of the year or anything for it, but I do think that it’s an objective measure of his level of interest in them - unlike OP’s comments about him being ambivalent which is entirely subjective. It’s not like OP is being held hostage to her current area by someone who hasn’t seen their child for years which is sometimes the case with posters on MN - these children are seeing their father and three siblings/two stepsiblings very frequently.

[MessAllOver]

@upsidedownwavylegs. But that's the assessment the OP needs to make. I agree it's not clearcut but I object to the assumption that maintaining an unsatisfactory relationship with a fairly uninterested father trumps all other considerations. If the family are living in financially difficult circumstances with the OP working all hours to support them and the kids unhappy at school and unable to do extracurricular activities due to the cost, a move might be in their best interests. Why should they have to live a miserable life just so they can be made available for contact with their dad?

[upsidedownwavylegs]

@MessAllOver

parents should make sacrifices to facilitate their children’s relationship with their other parent.

But it's not necessarily only the parent, the OP, who is making the sacrifices here. The children could sacrifice the chance for a better quality of life with less stress and more opportunities. So the children are making sacrifices too.

It doesn’t sound like there necessarily will be less stress if the OP is going to work the same hours. Any opportunities presented by living overseas to children will be pretty limited if it’s only for three years. And by moving abroad they definitely will be sacrificing a meaningful relationship with their dad and siblings that they currently see weekly.

[SixesAndEights]

It has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life.

our lifestyle causes them significant stress. Basically I'm out early to go to work and back late. They are in childcare for most of the day and weekends are split with dad so don't get much time to spend at home. I really feel we need a big change for them as well as me.

The hours may be similar but the perks are better. Cost of living is cheaper, better lifestyle opportunities, better pay etc. I do have a concern about the lack of support with kids but lock down has put me in that position now to be honest so I can see that I can cope with being self reliant. I would need to find excellent childcare there which I can use when needed but those are small inconveniences for the potential benefits.

This is from page 1 and seems like you want to fulfil a lifelong dream at the expense of your children seeing their dad.

Yes, I've read further where you say sometimes he can go for longish periods without seeing them.

But this read like a justification of why it could be good for your children, when really it's more about you. You even say that the work hours will be similar despite telling us that your children have suffered because you're at work for long hours during the week!

I would look more to sorting out your long work hours, perhaps a change in the country you're in before taking them abroad. I think your children might find that, apart from weekends, everything is pretty much the same. With the added stress of being in a completely new country.

[AnathemaPulsifer]

If you’ve discussed it with the DC you need to raise it with their dad ASAP. Much better that he hear it from you.

[CorvusPurpureus]

Hi OP. Haven't RTWFT but I did this - best decision ever! I'm teaching overseas at an international school.

We have a brilliant life.

It did go to court, & I won, basically, because the kids were very keen to move & old enough (7-11) for their wishes to be considered. I also had an impressive dossier of all the advantages & a SHL.

Ex still not happy about it, but the dc definitely are. Feel free to pm me.

[AbiBrown]

Well said @MessAllOver (especially not when the other parent clearly isn't making any effort and has recreated himself another family).

[MessAllOver]

parents should make sacrifices to facilitate their children’s relationship with their other parent.

But it's not necessarily only the parent, the OP, who is making the sacrifices here. The children could sacrifice the chance for a better quality of life with less stress and more opportunities. So the children are making sacrifices too.

[Bibidy]

A prime example of parenting in the best interest of children. Tell their father he can’t have a relationship with them or else you’ll abandon them.

It’s this kind of shit that scars children and destroys their self esteem. Imagine if they ever found out she said this?! Jesus.

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy I actually don't agree at all with the OP moving abroad and taking the kids away from their father in this way.

Personally I think that you can't judge someone's relationship with their kids when you are not there to see it, so to say that their dad isn't 'engaged' and doesn't really care about them when he sees them weekly isn't really fair and potentially not even accurate. Kids are also notorious for saying things they think their parent wants to hear, so it may be they downplay their enjoyment of being with their dad to their mum, and vice versa.

My point re presenting the choice was more that if OP is genuinely right about her ex not caring about his children then she will get what she wants. But if she's in fact NOT right and he doesn't want to so easily give up contact with his children so easily then maybe she can consider making that difficult choice herself rather than inflicting it on him.

[Onjnmoeiejducwoapy]

@Bibidy

Tell him that you're considering a job opportunity abroad and the choice is either you take the kids and bring them back for school holidays to see him or they move in with him until you return.

If he's as not bothered as you say, I'm sure he'll sign the forms no problem.

A prime example of parenting in the best interest of children. Tell their father he can’t have a relationship with them or else you’ll abandon them.

It’s this kind of shit that scars children and destroys their self esteem. Imagine if they ever found out she said this?! Jesus.

[Bibidy]

Tell him that you're considering a job opportunity abroad and the choice is either you take the kids and bring them back for school holidays to see him or they move in with him until you return.

If he's as not bothered as you say, I'm sure he'll sign the forms no problem.

[upsidedownwavylegs]

I think you misunderstand me - I agree with you completely. What I meant was that she isn’t forsaking ‘everything else’ in her/the DCs lives to stay put, as three years abroad that’s by no means guaranteed anyway is not ‘everything’.

[pickledplumjam]

3 years is hardly temporary. And what about the sibling relationship that will be broken? Does that not matter?

[upsidedownwavylegs]

@MessAllOver

I think any parent owes it to their kids to allow that contact unless there's actual abuse.

At the expense of everything else?

A very temporary move abroad for a job OP hasn’t been offered is not ‘everything else’. But yes, of course parents should make sacrifices to facilitate their children’s relationship with their other parent.

[MessAllOver]

Its not like the OP is trying to escape a war zone or something

No but she is trying to deal with the fact that, in her opinion, her children are having a stressful and sub-optimal childhood.

[Bbub]

"everything else"??? That's not what's happening here. Its not like the OP is trying to escape a war zone or something

[MessAllOver]

I think any parent owes it to their kids to allow that contact unless there's actual abuse.

At the expense of everything else?

[Bbub]

OP is presenting it as a 2-3yr plan if I remember correctly. I can't see how that's even worth it.. 2-3yrs might give the OPs career a quick boost but is that really going to have that much of an impact on the kids' future careers? If it's so great for the kids then stay there?

If the dad is crap and the kids don't want contact when they get older that's their choice to make not the OPs. I think any parent owes it to their kids to allow that contact unless there's actual abuse.

[Nc135]

@Shinyletsbebadguys as you say. The massive difference here is that both your parents were with you. This is not a comparable situation. If OP were asking if she should go with their father I am sure the resounding answer would be ‘hell yes’

[MessAllOver]

Court won't stop the dad moving away from his children though.

Yes, that's true. If contact is so important, why aren't dads required to have contact with their children? Why is it only children who are required to have contact?

[deerdeerrt]

Court won't stop the dad moving away from his children though.