How do I get ex to agree with me moving kids abroad

[Floatingaway2017]

Hello

I have been applying for jobs abroad as it has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience. I am looking for a change for myself and children who are in primary school at the moment. I am doing okay as a single mum in the UK but life is stressful and busy. We are always running around from school to work and living in a big city life is expensive.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life. I really feel this is the best thing for kids and I at the moment. This move is not permanent and I plan for us to move back within a few years (3-5 years maximum) unless we absolutely love it there and don't want to move back.

How do I approach my ex about giving me permission to do this. He has parental responsibility like me. He sees kids one day a week (no overnights) and pays maintenance. He doesn't involve himself in their schooling or childcare. Doesn't take them to any extracurricular clubs. He has very young children with his current partner as well as stepchildren. He is not really that interested or invested in my children's upbringing or welfare so I don't think it would be a massive disruption to him if we moved. However he has narcissistic tendencies and may just try to thwart my plans because he can. He has seemed to become more indifferent towards me though which I am hoping may work in my favour in convincing him to agree to this.

Similarly I feel like he doesn't add anything significant to my children's life that they would miss if we went abroad and actually the wonderful new experiences they would have would compensate for this. During the week they never ask to speak to him and no longer get disappointed if they can't see him on the weekends for any reason. Basically he is ambivalent and so are they.

I'm happy to bring them during holidays to visit their dad and support their relationship with his family in other ways. I am 60-70% convinced he will agree but I am not sure how to broach the matter in a way that will tip it more in my favour. Please can you advise especially if you have dealt with a narcisstic coparent or been in this situation.

[category12]

I really wouldn't put so much hope into this vision of moving abroad, OP. You sound really excited and certain about it, but it's so very likely he'll object and stop you going (even if he says initially he's OK with it) that you're going to end up devastatingly disappointed and resentful. I mean, the kind of man you describe is not going to see it your way and might enjoy giving you hope and then smashing it.

[trixiebelden77]

What a shame you had kids with such a terrible person. I assume his narcissistic tendencies were latent for a long period.

Having done so, however, you need to allow some relationship between them. Even if it’s inadequate. Turning the relationship to virtually nothing isn’t an option.

Let the kids decide what their relationship with their dad is when they’re older, don’t rip it from them now. You’ve acknowledged yourself that they’ll miss him. However useless or narcissistic, they love him and deserve to have whatever contact they can get.

FYI when you’re describing ‘blood, sweat and tears’ you’re describing normal parenting.

I’m also curious what job is easier and more lucrative outside the UK.

[Mommabear20]

It's not about him or you but your kids! They deserve to have access to both parents and dragging them to another continent just seems mean

[Floatingaway2017]

Bill I wouldn't allow him to because I don't trust him that he would look after them properly. On the other hand he either trusts me implicitly or doesn't care because I make all major decisions about their life on my own. Not by choice but because he doesn't actually give a damn. Even when we initially separated he had very little interest in what would happen to the children and to date has left all difficult explanations to me. But yeah I should piss off and leave them with him or let them move abroad with a dad who doesn't even have a drawer in his home for them let alone a bed or room.

[Stillfunny]

Maybe put it in such a way that he doesn't feel totally uninvolved. Perhaps say that you are considering this option and what would he think about it ? Let him ask you any questions he wants and have a palateable answer for him. Leave forgoing maintenance as a bargaining chip. If you can place a positive spin on it , he might not feel strongly enough to disagree. What do your kids think ? Do they know your idea ? Maybe they could also tell him that they would like to go.

Why are women always being told to do the right thing when these dads never do. He sounds so unemotionally invested anyway, why should he get to enforce his way ? It is not as though he always puts their needs first as the OP does. The reality is that some parents are a bit shit and dont deserve to calln the shots.
Rant away at me .

[june2007]

He trusts you to look after the children here when he can see them every wk. It,s quite different to being abroad isn,t it.

[MessAllOver]

OP, I think the worry is that the reality of life abroad doesn't match your vision. So make sure you do your research.

On the present issue, as you'd find out if he took it to court, contact with a non-resident parent is only one factor which the courts take into account to judge what is in a child's best interests. It doesn't trump everything else. If living abroad really would offer all the opportunities you've outlined, there's a good chance the court would allow it subject to conditions such as bringing the kids back for visits. It would be different if your ex was a committed father doing 50/50 care - it would be much less likely to be allowed in that case.

[Floatingaway2017]

I agree trixie it is normal parenting and I haven't changed what I do for them since the divorce. However I feel my ability to be the mother I want to be is negatively impacted by the type of lifestyle we live now. I'm stressed out working long hours and they are in childcare for a long time which also makes them stressed out. Their weekends are not their own to do what they want but restricted due to this contact with their dad. They have complained to me that they never get a break. I feel a lot of guilt about that. Either I need to change careers, move out of this city, work part time or move abroad. I have options but the most lucrative one in the short term is moving abroad to work not because the pay is significantly higher or hours less but because of the lifestyle change and additional benefits with the job will make a positive difference. I don't want to be naive so thank you to those giving me more information about what it is actually like to live and work abroad.

[AbiBrown]

OP you're right especially on these forums with people who don't know you that you're damned if you do damned if you don't. I think the two most important things are : your children aren't currently happy or particularly bothered about their dad and you'd be happier with the move. That means you'll be in the best position to be the best parent you can be. Also, I moved around as a kid, moved to another country for 3 years when I was ten then back to the previous one. I am FINE. I am able to make friends easily, it gave me lots of opportunities for training and work later on, it was absolutely fine and the right choice.
I would absolutely hate being in your children's shoes right now, going to a parent who's clearly not bothered and being overlooked in a messy, noisy house, filled with other kids they might be resentful of. Sound awful and sounds like they would thrive away from this. In the end, you matter, and your happiness matters and is crucial to your kids' wellbeing. I imagine he'll be OK with it as it'll be less hassle for him, I guess.

[june2007]

"other kids" you mean their brothers and sisters?
I had a colleague who mooved to Oz. One time after a visit home her daughter refused to get on the plane to the point she missed her flight. (Just because abroad may suit you it may not your children.)

[ladygracie]

What do your children think about the prospect of moving abroad? Do they know?

[slipperywhensparticus]

Speak to his girlfriend about it? She might be happy to have more cash for awhile

[Alys20]

Hi OP, I have the narc ex and international situation... Your only hope is, as pp have said, to focus 100% on the unique opportunities for the kids.
Not one word about you or your work. If he has narc tendencies he can then be seen as the generous understanding father who's promoting their best interests.

Second thing is nailing the detail. Be incredibly specific about everything they'll be doing and when you intend to return.

[category12]

I have options but the most lucrative one in the short term is moving abroad to work

It might be the most lucrative etc, but I'd stop getting your hopes up about it. You've got to be realistic about your chances of persuading him to go along with it, which I'd put at near-zero. Make sure you're looking at the other options of moving out of the city and career changes, because it's far more likely you'll actually be able to do those.

[june2007]

Do not speak to girl friend before speaking to him. He has a right to hear about it first.

[tribpot]

I don't think you're going into this negotiation in the right frame of mind. You want to move abroad and you believe it's the best thing for your children. These are two things which it is clear your ex has no interest in.

He has already withheld access in order to punish you, it seems extremely likely he will be willing to do the opposite, and insist on access, in order to punish you.

I think some good strategies have been suggested whereby you can present this as something you're just considering, or that will do him a favour, but I do think he will sense weakness (the fact that you really want it) and exploit that. Especially since you apparently need to get his agreement in writing even before you can be considered for work. I wouldn't open with this offer, but I would expect to reach a point where you have to give up claims to child support to get him to agree.

I would follow up on MessAllOver 's advice and consult a lawyer, so you know what a court would likely rule if it comes to that. I think he will relish the drama of a 'custody battle' with him as the injured party.

Good luck, I hope you're able to negotiate something which is fair to you and the dc.

[InFiveMins]

I don't think you should go. They are his children too. I would wait until the children are older and can decide themselves if they want to go.

[AngelDelightUK]

How about looking at a different part of the UK instead? I feel this could potentially lead to more stress and resentment. Do your DC act like they don’t care about going because they don’t want you to know they had a good time? I have two ex-step daughters and that’s exactly what they did with their mum

[Bbub]

It doesn't matter if he's a crap dad, you made the choice to have children and you owe it to your kids (I don't care about him) to keep the possibility of a relationship with their father open. To do what you're suggesting makes you a crap parent too in my opinion and you will realise that later down the line yourself.

Plenty of other dads do fuck off but he hasn't so that's quite irrelevant here

[HollowTalk]

If he doesn't have them overnight now, and if there are five children living with him, I wouldn't put any expectation on him having your children for all of the summer holidays!

[Floatingaway2017]

I know I need to manage my expectations and hopes. I just feel like its within reach now because he is busy in his new life and I just need to work out the right way to present it.

You know initially I thought they were having a great time and didn't want to tell me. So I stopped asking them about it. Then my older son started to complain he wasn't being treated fairly. I took this with a pinch of salt and tried to explain why things might be as they are. Then my younger son also started complaining. Coupled with that my kids started to complain to ex mil (kids grandma) and she told me that the environment/atmosphere wasn't great for them there and they shouldn't stay overnight. Also when I spoke to ex about children feeling they were treated unfairly with examples he basically attacked my kids criticising them and defending himself to the point I realised that maintaining his status quo is more important to him then making sure kids are emotionally and mentally well.

Anyway I will wait and see how the application process goes for now. I don't want to risk speaking to him when the option isn't even there to begin with. If it progresses then I will move forward and use the strategies put forward. If it works it works if it doesn't then I will either think of something else or take it to court. Either way nothing is gained if I don't try it at least.

Thanks for the advice especially from those who have been in the same situation. It has helped me to realise its not as simple as I thought and I need to plan it more carefully especially how to maintain their relationship so it isn't lost completely. Hopefully it will go well and will be positive for me and kids.

[Findwen]

I was moved in year 2 to another infant school. At the very end of year 4 we moved again and I ended up at the junior school of my original school. In just that time all my former friends from year 2 had formed new groups that I found it essentially impossible to get in, I was always an outsider, often alone.

Year 7 came around and almost none of the people I had become close were with me in my new senior school.

I can't tell you how much this impacted my life forevermore. My confidence and ability to socialise was badly impacted and never recovered to how I was in Year 2. This was all within the same town, nothing like a vastly different country with another language or culture which make you stand out even more. Maybe your kids will be fine and my experience is an unlikely scenario. I hope so for their sake.

[m0therofdragons]

@Findwen this is why schools get pupil premium money for children from forces families, to help support them due to the uprooting and changing of schools. It can be very damaging. Children feeling rejected by a parent also does damage. Even if the parent is a bit of a rubbish one, being there is better than not. Kids don’t really care about money and house sizes at that age so the move is for the OP. It’s okay to be a bit selfish sometimes but this is a huge change that is being dressed up as “best for dc”.

[bobbyshafto]

Could you reverse it and say you have been offered an opportunity to work abroad for a year or so, and how would he feel about having them permanently whilst you are away, as you don't want to take them away from him? If he really isn't bothered, he may say no and ask/beg you to take them with you. If he is bothered, he may say yes to keeping them with him, then at least you'll know he does care and would be unlikely to allow you to take them if you did ask. If the latter is the case, you'll have to stay and say the job fell through.

[AbiBrown]

I went to an international school. Most of my peers had moved around loads and the vast majority were and still are well adjusted and happy. I certainly am. Ultimately what impacts the most is a happy home life. My parents were happy and provided a comfortable, loving environment. There is no reason why those poor kids should be made to put up with a frankly soul destroying situation just so they can see their dad once a week. The pay off is a low quality of life, stressed mum and feeling second best. Also to the person who asked, most jobs in many other countries are better paid and better hours than the UK, which has some of the worst employment rights in the Europe. And sadly, increasingly the highest rate of childhood depression and unhappiness. So if you have a chance to take them out of this, go for it!