How do I get ex to agree with me moving kids abroad

[Floatingaway2017]

Hello

I have been applying for jobs abroad as it has always been a goal of mine to get some international experience. I am looking for a change for myself and children who are in primary school at the moment. I am doing okay as a single mum in the UK but life is stressful and busy. We are always running around from school to work and living in a big city life is expensive.

This job not only offers fantastic educational and financial opportunities but also a more relaxed lifestyle as well as well as a better quality of life. I really feel this is the best thing for kids and I at the moment. This move is not permanent and I plan for us to move back within a few years (3-5 years maximum) unless we absolutely love it there and don't want to move back.

How do I approach my ex about giving me permission to do this. He has parental responsibility like me. He sees kids one day a week (no overnights) and pays maintenance. He doesn't involve himself in their schooling or childcare. Doesn't take them to any extracurricular clubs. He has very young children with his current partner as well as stepchildren. He is not really that interested or invested in my children's upbringing or welfare so I don't think it would be a massive disruption to him if we moved. However he has narcissistic tendencies and may just try to thwart my plans because he can. He has seemed to become more indifferent towards me though which I am hoping may work in my favour in convincing him to agree to this.

Similarly I feel like he doesn't add anything significant to my children's life that they would miss if we went abroad and actually the wonderful new experiences they would have would compensate for this. During the week they never ask to speak to him and no longer get disappointed if they can't see him on the weekends for any reason. Basically he is ambivalent and so are they.

I'm happy to bring them during holidays to visit their dad and support their relationship with his family in other ways. I am 60-70% convinced he will agree but I am not sure how to broach the matter in a way that will tip it more in my favour. Please can you advise especially if you have dealt with a narcisstic coparent or been in this situation.

[steppemum]

sorry I haven't read the whole thread.

We lived overseas when my kids were young, so instead of visiting grandparents every few weeks, they saw them once in 18 months, but then we stayed with them for 1-2 months.

At one point my mum said she knew my kids better than the pther granchildren due to those longer more intense times together.

So, while it is not ideal to lose that weekly contact, if he did have longer contact in the holidays, it might mean that he gets to knwo them better in those times.

A spell overseas can be an amazing opportunity for kids, really giving them another side of life.

[KarmaNoMore]

I think you should try, people overestimate or underestimate how much kids can be getting from a relatively under involved parent. (I have seen very involved dads being perceived as rubbish and proper disinterested ones judged as “amazing” dads)

Just bear in mind that the process of moving them without their dad’s agreement will be very costly in terms of time, finances and above all emotional repercussions (your children will also suffer from this battle, nobody can be a good parent when massively stressed by the process), which you and the kids will need to bear for a very slim chance to get courts to agree with you.

[AbiBrown]

Everyone speaks from personal experience, mine echoes @VivaMiltonKeynes and @steppemum, so you know that there are cases where a move abroad is hugely beneficial. It also proves that whatever you do, there will be people thinking it's the wrong choice to make, so make yourself happy and give your children what you think is a great opportunity. I wish you all the best!

[mumduty]

I think you should concentrate on how this would be beneficial for the kids I.e education, better quality of life rather than the job itself or it benefitting you at all and highlighting the length of stay saying it's temporary as pp has mentioned. Try to highlight all the cons here and the pros of what sort of life they will be having and how it will help with their future. For example, they could learn a new language which means they could earn more in the future or they will be getting a better education which would mean they would be more advance than their peers in the uk when they get back etc. Good luck, I hope it goes well x

[Crankley]

You keep talking about giving them a better life - better how?

Well it's all irrelevant if he says no, even if you spend tens of thousands going to court, the most likely outcome will still be no.

[VivaMiltonKeynes]

@Floatingaway2017

Thank you to those who have given me great advice and insight. Not everyone is going to approve and support or even understand the reasons for doing something like this and that's okay as well. I know what I want to get out of this for myself and children and even if it doesn't go to plan I know that the decision was made for the right reasons.

It's funny how selective and judgemental people can be. I know if I had posted the exact same details as I have but yet the decision I was making was leaving the children with a disinterested dad so I can go abroad on my own to work the same people calling me a bad mum for taking the kids away from their dad would be calling me a terrible mother for leaving the children with a dad who is emotionally unavailable and detached. Unfortunately as a mother you can never win unlike dads who just need to pay maintenance and see their kids one day a week to win nr dad of the year. At the end of the day I will have to be accountable for the actions and decisions I make so its better I do things I actually believe in rather than what other people find acceptable.

Any major life change will always involve some risk. I don't want to live afraid to make a wrong move. Getting divorced has shown me you can always start over.

My children won't be little forever so I have to enjoy them while I can. Those saying I can do this when they are older etc well can you guarantee me that I will live that long to be able to do this later. Also they may have no desire to move abroad with me when they are older. Right now schooling wise they are flexible. It would be disastrous to move them in secondary when they are doing gcse or when they are doing a levels. So actually your just telling me to give up on this completely.

I don't believe women should give up their ambitions and goals when they become mothers because it creates either a lot of resentment towards your children or a huge sense of entitlement. I know friends whose mothers sacrificed everything for their children and when they became adults developed a lot of bitterness for all the opportunities they gave up for their children who now they are older have their own lives to live. I don't want to be that kind of mother who feels like my kids owe me something or that I couldn't achieve what I wanted because of them.

Similarly I don't believe I will destroy their relationship with their dad or siblings. Most people don't live with their extended family that doesn't mean their children don't enjoy spending time with family or feel loved by them. My children see their cousins about every 6 months and whenever they meet up again its as if they had never been apart. They once went to visit relatives abroad and within half a day they were best of friends with all the children there. I think a lot of you who are against this decision are underestimating how resilient and adaptable children are. It will be an adventure for them and give them a chance to make friends from all over the world. They don't have a strong attachment right now to either their school or friends at school. They will miss family as will I but at the chance to give them a better life I think we can tolerate that for a short time. What I can't do as a previous poster said is just accept that life will be shit and they will just have to live with it. Yes the situation may not be great in terms of their dad but I can make a bad situation better by helping them to develop a positive frame of mind so they are not reliant on their dad for validation or emotional support which he will struggle to give them.

I honestly believe this is the best opportunity to convince their dad. I think this will offer him a way to reduce contact while saving face. He may make more of an effort with them if he sees them less. Distance makes the heart grow fonder and all that. Someone said I resented him starting a new family. Its not that it's the power imbalance. He could literally at any moment cut contact and there is nothing I could do. Whilst I am having to base my decisions around this one day a week. Those saying I am only thinking of myself are being unfair. I show up everyday and every time for them whilst he picks them up when he is bothered and the rest of the week ignores them completely. Sorry but I have higher expectations of a responsible parent then that.

I may not be able to act on this as I do need his consent or a court order anyway but nothing is gained if you don't even try.

Well said OP. I don't know why some people hang onto relationships with useless people. Good luck!

[Nc135]

Well said OP. I don't know why some people hang onto relationships with useless people. Good luck!

Maybe because this ‘useless person’ (and remember we are only getting one side of the story here!) happens to also be the father of her children. That’s why you ‘hang on’ to that relationship. You do it for the kids.

I have to say I am quite shocked with some of the comments on here. Narcissism has indeed been bandied around a lot on here. Interesting if the father says no - he wants to keep the relationship with them. Then who’s the one with narcissistic tendencies?

[AbiBrown]

It doesn't actually matter that he's the children's father if he treats them as second class citizens in his home and putting their welfare last by taking on children that he barely has the capacity to care for. Again, the adults that have had such childhoods tend not to thank their parents for "doing it for the kids". They're resentful, bitter and go on to have miserable relationships themselves. Good on women for wanting more!

[upsidedownwavylegs]

DM exactly what I was thinking. One of the big benefits is getting them away from a situation that is causing them emotional harm. Their dad has thrown a lot at them to adjust to and it has taken its toll on one of them in particular. He is the one who is the most excited about going away and I feel he would get a lot from the experience.

OP, does this mean you’ve discussed this with young children before their father who they see weekly? That’s really not on. And certainly not a good strategy for getting his agreement.

[Onjnmoeiejducwoapy]

Your update doesn’t change my mind at all on this, the opposite if anything. I can’t believe you think it’s a matter of either taking the children from their father or abandoning them yourself? Nobody is telling you to do that, yes you would rightly be judged for that!

Sorry but when you have kids that does put limits on your life. There are two people in the world who need you to make decisions in their benefit.

[MessAllOver]

There are two people in the world who need you to make decisions in their benefit.

Why is everyone so sure that it is to the children's benefit not to go?

[Palavah]

@FortunesFave

I think it's a bit of a selfish thing to do to uproot kids for up to 5 years and then uproot them again to bring them home tbh.

It's not selfish at all. It will give them opportunities to grow in a far more advanced fashion than most children get. My children have lived on two continents. They're fine.

Totally agree. My life is richer for having lived overseas as a child. It gave me a different outlook from friends who lived their entire lives in the same town/city apart from university.

[Onjnmoeiejducwoapy]

@MessAllOver

There are two people in the world who need you to make decisions in their benefit.

Why is everyone so sure that it is to the children's benefit not to go?

Because the children have strong, regular family relationships with their father, their siblings and their grandparents. OP has said she would want to move to an entirely different continent, there are no family links there that might go some way to compensating for this loss. Their mother would also be working and relying on care (to be clear nothing wrong with this).

But overall this represents a clear and overwhelming loss of family relationships, in particular impacting the (other than their mother) most important relationship in their life, with their father.

This is an overwhelmingly large issue. Unless there is a massive, MASSIVE benefit to moving I don’t see how it could even be considered.

[Shinyletsbebadguys]

The absolute truth is people will look at this from their own bias OP. I grew up in several countries as a child , away from family relationships and it did me the world of good. I count it among the rare positive experiences my DP gave me.

I didnt see my grandmother until I was nearly 8 and then only sporadically afterwards and I loved her and had a great relationship with her. I am independent and not remotely scared of moving area , new challenges and I honestly put that down to the experiences of my childhood living abroad. I experienced things before I was 15 that many of my adult peers never experienced.

It meant as an older teenager I happily trotted off travelling without fear of leaving home. I have an ex colleague who was the same . Grew up all over the world and counts it as a massive positive for her. So of course I look at this and in general terms think go for it. (I will admit my DP were together and I will come on to this ).

What I have noticed is people who are overly dependant on family relationships that I have met (of course there will be many this is not the case) feel unable to leave that structure and it has really limited them. They prize the physical proximity if these support networks to a point they become restricted by them. I've been a single mum in an unknown area with zero family within 5 hours (and those wouldn't speak to me ) and I was fine. It was hard but bloody hell it made us string as hell. My DC are brilliantly resilient.

However the df is a concern. However much I would love to give my DC the same experience I have had in honesty they would be negatively impacted by not seeing their df. Not by the adventure of being abroad but yes loss of that particular relationship would be challenging.

You haven't got a lot of choice but to lay it out for him. Any form of manipulation will not end well.

[chemicalworld]

shintlyletsbebadguys, did you have both of your parents with you?

[chemicalworld]

ah yes. They were.

[MessAllOver]

But overall this represents a clear and overwhelming loss of family relationships, in particular impacting the (other than their mother) most important relationship in their life, with their father.

But the OP is saying that they don't have a particularly good relationship with their father and he isn't particularly engaged. That they find contact stressful and chaotic. And that the rest of their lives are fairly stressful at the moment as well.

I'm sceptical of the OP's plan because often people see moving abroad through rose-tinted glasses. But, assuming she's done her research, from what she says there are both pros and cons for the children.

Pros -

• Better material standard of living.
• Better standard of education.
• Better access to extracurricular activities.
• More relaxed lifestyle.
• Less stressed mum.
• A fantastic experience which could prepare them for life as "world citizens" and give them a different perspective to life in the UK.
• Chance to spend more intense contact time with dad during the holidays (assuming he steps up and has the kids for a decent chunk of this time).

Cons

• Loss of weekly contact with a not very engaged dad and half-siblings. I agree Skype isn't the same. On the other hand, if the children are finding contact chaotic and stressful, that is something to take into account.
• Loss of easy access to wider family links - the OP doesn't have any family in the new country, presumably all her family are here.
• Risk/expense - moving is expensive. It might not be as easy to come back as the OP thinks.
• New school/home - change is always disruptive for children. They'll have to make new friends and start in a new system, then potentially leave those friends in a few years to come home. Only the OP will know whether her kids are sufficiently adaptable to deal with that.

It's not that I definitely think the OP should go for it. It's just I don't think she should be prevented from going for the sake of promoting a not very satisfactory relationship between the children and their dad and step-siblings. If the children were close to their dad and found contact with him beneficial, it would be different. Only the OP knows whether this is really the case - she needs to judge this one carefully. But contact with dad isn't a trump card that means that all the other potential benefits of moving should be disregarded. It is one consideration in determining what is best for the children. And that is how a court would see it.

[Onjnmoeiejducwoapy]

@chemicalworld

shintlyletsbebadguys, did you have both of your parents with you?

I think this is totally the key thing, and something @Shinyletsbebadguys does recognise to his/her credit.

Living abroad with your parents is great, but I don’t think it’s really comparable to breaking off their regular relationship with their father.

I think family is massively important, although i live abroad from mine—but within a short flight. I have a lot of friends who grew up on different continents and moved around, who still have strong relationships with family. However I don’t know any who voluntarily broke up the relationships between children and their parents.

[deerdeerrt]

Court won't stop the dad moving away from his children though.

[MessAllOver]

Court won't stop the dad moving away from his children though.

Yes, that's true. If contact is so important, why aren't dads required to have contact with their children? Why is it only children who are required to have contact?

[Nc135]

@Shinyletsbebadguys as you say. The massive difference here is that both your parents were with you. This is not a comparable situation. If OP were asking if she should go with their father I am sure the resounding answer would be ‘hell yes’

[Bbub]

OP is presenting it as a 2-3yr plan if I remember correctly. I can't see how that's even worth it.. 2-3yrs might give the OPs career a quick boost but is that really going to have that much of an impact on the kids' future careers? If it's so great for the kids then stay there?

If the dad is crap and the kids don't want contact when they get older that's their choice to make not the OPs. I think any parent owes it to their kids to allow that contact unless there's actual abuse.

[MessAllOver]

I think any parent owes it to their kids to allow that contact unless there's actual abuse.

At the expense of everything else?

[Bbub]

"everything else"??? That's not what's happening here. Its not like the OP is trying to escape a war zone or something

[MessAllOver]

Its not like the OP is trying to escape a war zone or something

No but she is trying to deal with the fact that, in her opinion, her children are having a stressful and sub-optimal childhood.