DH says “you’re making me force you” to DD

[Callardandbowser]

DH has lately started to say to DD (age 3) “Don’t make me force this” to DD when she’s resisting something like for example having her teeth brushed. I have found DD has really started to push boundaries lately (as they all do) but I never use my physical strength to ‘win’ in the battle of wills because I’m stronger so it’s (in my opinion) an abuse of power.

If DD won’t cooperate with having her teeth brushed, DH holds her really strongly so she can’t move and brushes her teeth.

Yesterday was bad. DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off.

I was really disturbed by this interaction because again he blamed her for him essentially losing his temper.

I have sent him a long email (because I don’t have the energy for an argument) explaining that I don’t want him to blame DD for him being physically dominating.

When I confronted him about the fact that he is a 50 year old man and has an inherent advantage over her. He really stuck to his guns and said that he will do the same to the cat if she’s breaking something (ie pick her up and take her away). I said that the cat is an animal, you can’t communicate to a cat in words he then shouted “It’s about time DD learns to do as she’s told” (for context DD is the best behaved kid I’ve ever come across, I’m a primary school teacher and have nannied for many children for 20 years so) I’m not just being biased.
I said that using force when dealing with behaviour is unacceptable and he just stood his ground and said that he will continue to do this if they are breaking possessions.

I said that the only time parents should intervene physically is when the child is endangering themselves or others. He just said that I am judgemental and that that’s just my view.

This is the worst bit. I then pushed him. I have never done this before and it really has disturbed me. I have apologised to him, I wanted to show him the behaviour that he was justifying. But in doing so I became a hypocrite and of course my point is lost.

I grew up in a shouty, unsafe home and I’m worried that I’m just being over-sensitive and I’ve made a mountain out of a molehill.

DH has never hit/ smacked/ hurt DD and never would but still I don’t like the vibe of his forcefulness or his behaviour management skills.

Please be gentle. I know mn can be a bit of a tricky place to ask for advice must I feel all over the place today and could do without people being mean.

Thanks for reading.

I'm also perplexed about why you had a child with him if you could see he wasn't the dad you would have liked with his first child. Not helpful now but it doesn't make any sense.

@4ds02719 tbh it wasn’t that obvious at first or even after a year or two.

If he doesn't change you will have to leave him. Sorry.

Hi OP

Using your own words:

*My childhood also makes me realise how normalised scary men are and that I mustn’t see it as normal when men are dominating my daughter lest the cycle continue.

I can’t not say something to him about it because it’s my job to protect her. Especially protect her from the difficult experiences I had as the child of a traumatised adult.*

You are right. Please do talk to him and yes, if he won't listen, put it in an email saying that you are starting to realise that you need to protect your DD "from him". As another poster put it:

How pathetic he lets a three year old make him do anything....

This. He needs to be told that his behaviour is bullying and that a 3 year old is too young to understand/reason/behave the way he wants. Bullying is learned behaviour so he needs to learn not to repeat it.

You are also doing well with the teeth brushing. I'd give mine the toothbrush to have a go with for a bit whilst "doing their own teeth" and then say it was my turn just to go over them a bit. Didn't always work and yes, sometimes you do have to be a bit firmer, but they're not forcing you - his choice of words is worrying.

Good luck.

Women are always blamed for ‘getting involved in the first place’ there’s so little concentration on men’s poor behaviour.
This is the exact reason I don’t want DD to internalise blame for the behaviour others because she’s already going to step out into a world for whom it’s the default.

No little girl should ever be taught that it is OK for a man to force her to do something she doesn't want to do.

@Branleuse

Ok so your partner made her brush her teeth. Big deal. What do you need advice on?

What a deliberately knobby post

I have to 'force' my son into brushing his teeth. after 20 seconds or so he doesn't mind. I don't want him coming to me when he's older with terrible teeth blaming me for not forcing him to brush them. I usually lie him on the floor and sing a song, but he clearly doesn't enjoy it.
If he's being naughty, I will shout at him. He used to rip his books up, now after being firm he doesn't and he has actually started to read them. Parenting is different for everyone. My cousin is very laid back and probably disagrees with a lot of my parenting, as I do her parenting.

Sounds as though you husband is quite exasperated to me ( haven't read whole thread)

So when he gets her up and dressed and she dances off because she doesnt want to clean her teeth, Mummy lets her do just that. She's playing daddy because Mummy is so passive. Mummy lets her do it in her own time....Is that a good thing?
Does daddy have that time?

Jess RTT.

Christ alive! This thread is NOT about teeth!

Comprehension skills please!

As a couple you are not on the same page at all. It doesn’t matter if MN agrees with you or not - you need to agree as a couple. You are a long way apart - you don’t agree with his parenting for this child or from first relationship. You might be a professional (teaching/ nannying) but he has presumably more experience of being a parent than you. You can’t shame him into doing what you want - and pushing him, gosh that’s not great. Both of you need to work on your comms with each other. When you send an email isn’t because you feel scared to say your piece or because you want to list ALL the things he’s doing “wrong”?

@ConquestEmpireHungerPlague

The fact that you had to email him to discuss this says a huge amount tbh. You knew you wouldn’t allowed to get your point across face to face. Is not just DD he throws his weight around with. You’re already adjusting your behaviour to avoid his reaction. Also known as walking on eggshells.

I don't know anything about OP's relationship, but this isn't necessarily a fair appraisal. I've been known to email my DP when there's something serious under discussion. It's not at all that we can't discuss things face to face and he would absolutely never hurt a fly, or even want to upset one. But I express myself better in writing, and what I want to say can then act as a productive starting point for a conversation, rather than a garbled ranty one.

If we were talking about your wouldn’t-hurt-a-fly partner I would agree with you but we aren’t, we’re talking about a man who roughly pulls things off his toddler when he’s angry so she falls, who shouts, and warns her that she’s about to “force” him to get physical with her. So I think it’s a fair assumption that OP is trying to avoid his angry reaction.

It’s really important that children learn about consent and body autonomy. We do also have to protect them which might involve grabbing a child running into the street or insisting on a diaper change. Violating of consent need to be reserved for rare instances and explained to the child why they are happening. Saying you are forcing me to hold you down is not ok. He is sending a very dangerous message to his daughter. I would ask him to think about the potential consequences to a teenager or young woman who has been conditioned to let a man dominate her when she doesn’t perform to his expectations.

If brushing her teeth is a constant battle, change up bedtime so something she enjoys happens after teeth. If she doesn’t cooperate with brushing, you wait and it cuts into the time to do the enjoyable activities. Or set up a reward system. Cooperate with brushing your teeth and earn gold stars.

I write to him to avoid him being able to just say I’m unstable/ nasty etc because trying to reason with him is so exasperating that I’m trying to avoid conflict and arguments from detracting from my main points.
He’s good at turning things around so they become about me and my anger so this avoids that.
Typically he hadn’t even acknowledged my email that was sent at 12 last night. His little game.

So often the wording your H uses is used by men to excuse DV — see now what you’ve made me do! That would worry me re his thought process.
By accustoming your daughter to allow herself to be manhandled by unspoken threats of the use of physical violence your daughter will become one step closer to vulnerability to grooming. “Be a good little girl and do as I say or”
Sure as other posters have said, one sometimes need to physically intervene in the care of a child for various reasons but this needs to be calm and matter of fact . In a few weeks teeth cleaning will not be an issue — there will be another issue. BTW does your H’s brushing of her teeth under duress maybe hurt her gums? The mucus membranes are very sensitive in toddler. At this age diet is more important re dental health than teeth cleaning. Rinsing her moth with water is also beneficial.
Good luck

OP this is way beyond how her how he treats your DD.

When you boil it down I think there is a massive power battle going on between you and your DH. You seem to see yourself as primary decision maker, analytical and sensitive to your DD's needs but lost control with shoving your husband and don't seem to be understanding that this is not right. Your DH seems to be flailing around in his parenting and relationships and is trying to regain some homeostasis by being over powering. I have linked to 'family scripts' from systemic family therapy. It looks at a parents family of origin and how it impacts on current parenting. There are replicative, corrective and improvised family scripts and I think they are impacting on both of you. I don't think you need systemic therapy as you seem bright enough to learn it yourself but you both need to address where yoyr needs to control come from. Less me, more we. You both sound like you are fundamentally good parents but the conflict and battle for power is impacting on your family functioning. You can BOTH sort this out OP. It isn't only your problem to resolve.

icpla.edu › uploads › 2015/04PDF
Introduction Family Scripts; their nature

@Ketrina

The aim isn't to get the three year old to brush her teeth. The aim should be to teach the three year old, every day and in every little way, how we relate to, live with, love other people.

Tell that to the dentist when they ask why you haven't been brushing your kid's teeth.

Umm, if you told a dentist that a child who was their patient had been verbally threatened and forcefully held down by a man 10 times their size, they would have a safeguarding duty to that child to ring social services.

The dentist, however, is probably a great person to talk to for positive ways to get a child to brush their teeth WITHOUT resorting to this!

Oh I don’t like the sounds of his game playing and arguments

That explains why you are worried about how he behaves towards her

Do you feel safe with him if you tell him what you really think and feel, face to face?

@Littleideasbigbook could you send that again please? I can’t seem to click on it.
Systemic family therapy is something I’ve been interested in attending for a while now.
Thank you so much.

The Speakmans are always helping people who have adult phobias traced back to childhood. I can see her being fearful of teeth brushing in later life of this becomes a traumatic experience each time. You need to be in sole charge of it and she is not too young to be given a lecture about her teeth going bad and falling out of she keeps refusing. Tell her it is not different to washing her hair or body.

I write to him to avoid him being able to just say I’m unstable/ nasty etc because trying to reason with him is so exasperating that I’m trying to avoid conflict and arguments from detracting from my main points.

This isn't going to work, you know? Someone who would say this in conversation is someone who will be thinking the same thoughts as they read your email.

The way he thinks of you or, I suppose to be exact given we only have your account, the way you think he thinks of you is untenable.

You won't be able to fix this issue until the pair of you fix or dissolve this marriage because it's become the battleground where you are playing out this uncomfortable dynamic.

OP I know the thread isn't about teeth but I was just using the post above to outline the abuse here. It actually IS verbally and physcially abusive, although on a low level it could traumatise your daughter, especially the threatening language "don't make me force you" is a horrible and scary thing to say to a three year old.

What's it going to be like if she acts out when she's older? She's only little now, but how is he going to deal with her behaviour when she is bigger and stronger? Will he start smacking her or using more force?

It's not OK and it needs addressing NOW. For your daughter's sake, you could ring your local social services helpline just for some advice and strategies for talking to your husband about this. It sounds lke you have some fundamentally different values about parenthood and his need bringing into the 21st Century. You don't have to do that on your own. Get some professional help.

So often the wording your H uses is used by men to excuse DV — see now what you’ve made me do! That would worry me re his thought process. The only one who has been violent is the OP.