DH says “you’re making me force you” to DD

[Callardandbowser]

DH has lately started to say to DD (age 3) “Don’t make me force this” to DD when she’s resisting something like for example having her teeth brushed. I have found DD has really started to push boundaries lately (as they all do) but I never use my physical strength to ‘win’ in the battle of wills because I’m stronger so it’s (in my opinion) an abuse of power.

If DD won’t cooperate with having her teeth brushed, DH holds her really strongly so she can’t move and brushes her teeth.

Yesterday was bad. DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off.

I was really disturbed by this interaction because again he blamed her for him essentially losing his temper.

I have sent him a long email (because I don’t have the energy for an argument) explaining that I don’t want him to blame DD for him being physically dominating.

When I confronted him about the fact that he is a 50 year old man and has an inherent advantage over her. He really stuck to his guns and said that he will do the same to the cat if she’s breaking something (ie pick her up and take her away). I said that the cat is an animal, you can’t communicate to a cat in words he then shouted “It’s about time DD learns to do as she’s told” (for context DD is the best behaved kid I’ve ever come across, I’m a primary school teacher and have nannied for many children for 20 years so) I’m not just being biased.
I said that using force when dealing with behaviour is unacceptable and he just stood his ground and said that he will continue to do this if they are breaking possessions.

I said that the only time parents should intervene physically is when the child is endangering themselves or others. He just said that I am judgemental and that that’s just my view.

This is the worst bit. I then pushed him. I have never done this before and it really has disturbed me. I have apologised to him, I wanted to show him the behaviour that he was justifying. But in doing so I became a hypocrite and of course my point is lost.

I grew up in a shouty, unsafe home and I’m worried that I’m just being over-sensitive and I’ve made a mountain out of a molehill.

DH has never hit/ smacked/ hurt DD and never would but still I don’t like the vibe of his forcefulness or his behaviour management skills.

Please be gentle. I know mn can be a bit of a tricky place to ask for advice must I feel all over the place today and could do without people being mean.

Thanks for reading.

Try and have the conversation about what age he would consider it inappropriate to intervene physically. Presumably he says 4, 5 or 6, not 11 or 12.

Lots of people pretending to be angels here who can coax 3 year olds to behave perfectly without ever intervening physically.

The worst part is not you shoving him it’s this:-

“If DD won’t cooperate with having her teeth brushed, DH holds her really strongly so she can’t move and brushes her teeth.

Yesterday was bad. DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off”

Would he do that in public OP? I’m sorry but he sounds abusive and I wouldn’t want him anywhere near my child. He’s completely OTT, what’s going to happen to her when he’s really angry because she’s done something naughty.

why do these things to your child when with a bit of thought, you can create a relationship based on trust and respect with your child where they know your boundaries and ultimately don’t enjoy the disconnection that comes from crossing them? You don't know other people's children, you know yours and you only have one. I had quite an easy well behaved first child and then I had the second one and realised I wasn't an amazing parent I was just lucky with the first. I think you are very smug but if your star child won't co-operate with having her teeth brushed and destroys toys when she is bored she aint that much of a star is she, in fact she is a fairly normal child.

Yes she’s a normal child for sure.

@Callardandbowser

I try to tune out of the “it never did me any harm” brigade because they’re usually quite traumatised adults who can be seen re-enacting the abuse and disappointment on their own children that was acted out on them as children.

Coming from the woman who pushed her husband? If it was the other way round, people would be saying LTB at the very least. You’ve lost any moral high ground, you’re saying you can wait for your child to come to the right decision yet have pushed your husband.

I don't think the comparisons with what happens in school are particularly helpful or relevant. School is a regimented environment. Home is supposed to be a safe haven where children can be themselves and feel absolutely secure in doing so.

OP, I think the bottom line is that you and your DH have very different parenting styles, unfortunately. You are on the 'gentle parenting' end of the spectrum, and he is more authoritarian. I do not tell others how to parent, but I am of course allowed a preference and I personally favour the gentle approach. It's not what I grew up with, but when I was in therapy a number of years ago, I realised that if I ever became parent myself, I truly had to break that pattern if I wanted to be the kind of parent that I think I should be. My DP is like your DH and rules with an iron rod (or tries to- it might work on some children but ours unfortunately don't react well to it). We have a lot of issues with the clash of our parenting styles, and the only thing that remotely helps is talking LOADS about this- about our respective wishes and expectations. To be honest, I think this whole process and his resultant behaviour has made me wonder if our relationship is in serious trouble. However what stops me from separating is my fear of how he would parent when I'm not around to intervene and put the brakes on shouting and authoritarian behaviour. (sorry this has gone off on a tangent about me- my intention is to show you that I very much feel for you and where you are coming from.)

As you very astutely suggested upthread, I do believe that parenting in his style can be a result of ingrained reflexive impulses borne out of his own childhood experience. I found this book very helpful (and I wish my DP would read it but he refuses.) (sorry for the monster link):
www.pdfread.net/ebook/the-book-you-wish-your-parents-had-read-philippa-perry/#:~:text=The%20Book%20You%20Wish%20Your%20Parents%20Had%20Read,encouraging%27%20Alain%20de%20Botton%27So%20clear%20and%20true%20

How pathetic he lets a three year old make him do anything....

you can create a relationship based on trust and respect with your child where they know your boundaries and ultimately don’t enjoy the disconnection that comes from crossing them?

OP - can you explain more about the 'disconnection' you mentioned? I am always looking for new ways to keep my kids on the straight and narrow without feeling like I'm on their cases all the time, but with two, it's simply unfair to expect one to wait/miss out on things while we hope that the other will decide that they want to do what's needed. It was a lot easier to be patient when I only had one, but when there's another non-parent being affected by the gentle approach, it makes it a lot harder to stick with it!

I think you come across as overly sensitive and emotional (writing long e-mails?!)

With toddlers you just have to intervene physically sometimes! My youngest was on a kamikaze mission, trying to threw himself off stuff, lying flat in the middle of the road, wanting to stroke random dogs, trying to clim out of his bedroom window. Many a time have I had to physically restrain him and physically pick him up and carry him away.

Forcing teeth brushing is another one

Times have changed, and I am probably old fashioned (am the same age as your DH) but I would not know how to cope as a parent of a toddler if all I was allowed to do was have gentle conversations to dissuade them from harming themselves instead of occasionally physically intervening

Parenting is really hard, we all make mistakes, every single one of us.

Probably best to start discussing your different parenting styles and try to understand where each of you is coming from and move forward together.

Unless of course you were really looking for validation that your husband is abusive. In that case you will find it here, in spades.

The fact that you had to email him to discuss this says a huge amount tbh. You knew you wouldn’t allowed to get your point across face to face. Is not just DD he throws his weight around with. You’re already adjusting your behaviour to avoid his reaction. Also known as walking on eggshells.

I don't know anything about OP's relationship, but this isn't necessarily a fair appraisal. I've been known to email my DP when there's something serious under discussion. It's not at all that we can't discuss things face to face and he would absolutely never hurt a fly, or even want to upset one. But I express myself better in writing, and what I want to say can then act as a productive starting point for a conversation, rather than a garbled ranty one.

@CardinalCat thanks, I’ve read that Phillippa Perry book and agree with everything she says.
DH let’s too much go in my opinion and then just goes mad out of the blue.
DD has even asked him that he counts to three first before getting angry and he said he would.
I do think it’s reflexive and him going into auto pilot when tired (as we all do)
I’m not smug/ perfect but I also have got skills in behaviour management that I’ve acquired over the course of my career but no matter how humbly I model/ put these strategies forward I’m always torn down by him accusing me of being a know it all or smug.
He has a DD from a previous relationship and I’m not a fan of how he and his ex parent her but now it’s my own DD I can’t not say something to him about it because it’s my job to protect her. Especially protect her from the difficult experiences I had as the child of a traumatised adult.

Hi OP.

I'm a long time lurker on Mumsnet but reading your post really prompted me to make an account.

There is a reason he is acting like this now. Your daughter is now at an age where she is developing her own personality, testing boundaries and growing and learning from this, entirely normal for children. Your husband however is realising that she is now her own little person and he is not going to get the blind and loving obedience he is used to - and he doesn't like it. And instead of using words and kindness and being a teacher to his daughter in the way that a loving Father should, he is using threats of force and fear to get her to comply.

He is using the fact that he is bigger and stronger than her to get her to do what he wants. "Don't make me force you". What kind of lesson is this for your poor daughter? To fear her father. Threats from her father.

I can guarantee you OP, she will be frightened of her father. If not now, then she certainly will be in the future. If he cannot stop now and realise what he is doing, he will not change. The fact that he is acting like this in the first place makes me think he won't change.

My father was like this. Doting Dad until I got to an age where I had my own mine - same as your daughter, around age three. The reason I wanted to post and make an account so much was because I distinctly remember him telling me the exact phrase of "don't make me force you". I also remember him roughly holding my head back and brushing my teeth.

It didn't get better for me and I no longer speak to my Father. I cut off contact with him when I was 21.

Please OP, if he doesn't accept that he is in the wrong now, he never will and your poor daughter will grow up hearing the phrase "don't make me force you" from her own Father.

A grown man putting responsibility onto a 3 year old for his bad temper and rough handling of said 3 year old is not pleasant and quite worrying.
As pp have said, it reminds me of the type of man who blames his victim for his violence. "You made me hit you" was the first thing that came to mind.
A little child is not responsible for, and should not be blamed for, the behaviour of an adult.

Thank you for taking time to make an account. I too had a forceful dad. And to be honest my sister is more traumatised by that than I am but now I’m beginning to understand how narcissists operate (favouring one golden child and scapegoating a black sheep child) I am looking honestly at how these wounded men operate.
I’m sorry if recounting your memory has been triggering for you but thank you for sharing. It makes me more sure that I will tackle him about this.
DH was parcelled off to boarding school as a little boy so he hasn’t really got many memories of family life and essentially his parents outsourced his care to his schools.
That though isn’t DD or my fault.

I don't think either of you are entirely right.

She's picking apart a toy, I don't think you need to scream and snatch or sit there discussing with her what life choice you'd like her to make regarding the fate of her toy. The toy is clearly damaged in some way so needs removing. The 3 year old isn't responsible for giving it mending it so I'd have told her no and removed it, explaining why.

She might discuss with you why she doesn't want her teeth brushed now and then make the correct life choice before bedtime, but that isn't terribly typical of children younger than this, so if they say no and refuse, you can't wait until they're old enough to gain understanding of the importance of teeth brushing.

I can't leave the 10 month old without a nappy on to wee all over the floor and then risk him or his twin slipping in it and o can't take them old undressed / leave them home alone so they have to be dressed.

So yes sometimes words aren't enough, no he shouldn't be pushing her over and scaring her.

And yes the "making me force you" is putting all responsibility for his actions on an infant

@Callardandbowser

Thank you for taking time to make an account. I too had a forceful dad. And to be honest my sister is more traumatised by that than I am but now I’m beginning to understand how narcissists operate (favouring one golden child and scapegoating a black sheep child) I am looking honestly at how these wounded men operate. I’m sorry if recounting your memory has been triggering for you but thank you for sharing. It makes me more sure that I will tackle him about this. DH was parcelled off to boarding school as a little boy so he hasn’t really got many memories of family life and essentially his parents outsourced his care to his schools. That though isn’t DD or my fault.

I think you're right there OP. "How these wounded men operate".

Yes, your husband had a difficult childhood. My father did too. But so did you and I because of men like this.

But our sympathy for their difficult upbringings can only go so far.

You and I did not turn out as adults using threats of force against our children. So why do we excuse it for them?

If these wounded men cannot work to be better fathers then why should be constantly excusing them.

@LST

I've been known to pin both my dc down to brush their teeth. Also for medication and when my ds2 needed a wound change.

Only you can know if he is going to far but I am someone that raises my voice

I agree. It took DH and I both to safely restrain my 10 mo so he could take his medications or vaccinations. Because the alternative would he an IV drip and possible ICU admission in a hospital. Same with tooth brushing - when all else fails we will hold him down to do it because otherwise he’ll have a mouth full of rotten teeth.

Sometimes you need to be tough as a parent for their own good. A softly, softly parenting approach that leads to more harm later isn’t good.

The 3 year old isn't responsible for mending it
That's funny, as I was just thinking what I'd do in this scenario and that you could say "Oh no, had Teddy got a hole in him? Oh dear, poor Teddy! We'd better fix him!" and then maybe get her to put a plaster on his arm :)

I have to use physical force to brush my DS's teeth. He is 15 with SLD & SEN.

Coming from the woman who pushed her husband? If it was the other way round, people would be saying LTB at the very least. You’ve lost any moral high ground, you’re saying you can wait for your child to come to the right decision yet have pushed your husband. Exactly.

OP your post gave me chills, he is a dominating bully.

He may have never hit your daughter but he is bullying, if you can speak to her and get her to behave well there is no excuse for him....BTW l am shocked at all the people who think its ok to forcibly brush their childrens teeth...I am no pushover but have never needed to force, and mine are not angels.

Unless he redically changes his behaviour ....which sounds very unlikely.....you do need to think carefully about the future, clearly he doesn't respect you or your views and that is very concerning as this attitude will end with her hating him, and /or being in fear of him. Neither of which are acceptable.

Personally l wouldn't tolerate my DH behaving that way towards our children, and l am a fairly strict parent myself.

OP please, please do not doubt yourself you sound like a great parent with all the right skills, do not let him bully you into submission, fight for what you know is the right thing for your DD.

I think you're at one end of the spectrum and he's at the other. You're clearly saintly and he needs parenting classes. But he may never be just like you because most of us aren't. Can you lower the goal for him to something more achievable? Like an explanation/warning that makes sense and isn't threatening on the teeth thing, rather than the forcing comment.

@ravenmum

The 3 year old isn't responsible for mending it That's funny, as I was just thinking what I'd do in this scenario and that you could say "Oh no, had Teddy got a hole in him? Oh dear, poor Teddy! We'd better fix him!" and then maybe get her to put a plaster on his arm :)

But then YOU need to get the needle and thread and fix him, which is not her job Plaster and bed is a good idea, but if she's refusing to hand gun over and is slowly showing his guts across the floor, he's being taken away to hospital