DH says “you’re making me force you” to DD

[Callardandbowser]

DH has lately started to say to DD (age 3) “Don’t make me force this” to DD when she’s resisting something like for example having her teeth brushed. I have found DD has really started to push boundaries lately (as they all do) but I never use my physical strength to ‘win’ in the battle of wills because I’m stronger so it’s (in my opinion) an abuse of power.

If DD won’t cooperate with having her teeth brushed, DH holds her really strongly so she can’t move and brushes her teeth.

Yesterday was bad. DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off.

I was really disturbed by this interaction because again he blamed her for him essentially losing his temper.

I have sent him a long email (because I don’t have the energy for an argument) explaining that I don’t want him to blame DD for him being physically dominating.

When I confronted him about the fact that he is a 50 year old man and has an inherent advantage over her. He really stuck to his guns and said that he will do the same to the cat if she’s breaking something (ie pick her up and take her away). I said that the cat is an animal, you can’t communicate to a cat in words he then shouted “It’s about time DD learns to do as she’s told” (for context DD is the best behaved kid I’ve ever come across, I’m a primary school teacher and have nannied for many children for 20 years so) I’m not just being biased.
I said that using force when dealing with behaviour is unacceptable and he just stood his ground and said that he will continue to do this if they are breaking possessions.

I said that the only time parents should intervene physically is when the child is endangering themselves or others. He just said that I am judgemental and that that’s just my view.

This is the worst bit. I then pushed him. I have never done this before and it really has disturbed me. I have apologised to him, I wanted to show him the behaviour that he was justifying. But in doing so I became a hypocrite and of course my point is lost.

I grew up in a shouty, unsafe home and I’m worried that I’m just being over-sensitive and I’ve made a mountain out of a molehill.

DH has never hit/ smacked/ hurt DD and never would but still I don’t like the vibe of his forcefulness or his behaviour management skills.

Please be gentle. I know mn can be a bit of a tricky place to ask for advice must I feel all over the place today and could do without people being mean.

Thanks for reading.

@RedskyAtnight I do have a very amenable one. I also have a lot of patience with her and plenty of non physical strategies up my sleeve.
Her language comprehension and reasoning skills are amazing so there is literally zero need to resort to physical pushing around.

I think you are still dealing with the fallout from your own home and upbringing (and his too). That is why you haven't learnt to talk and need to email each other and then you resorted to pushing him. I think this is a bigger issue and will be there over every parenting disagreement you face...and you have 20 years to go!

Can you do a relationship course online to improve how you disagree in a healthy way?

With regards to his parenting I think he needs to be shown what to do. How about Webster Stratton Incredible Years?

I wouldn't be sitting there for ages with a toothbrush either though so it sounds like you need a balance between your way and his.

Does he have any other DC?
He sounds like a mean idiot.

He needs a parenting class.

So if I can get her to do things she doesn’t want to do, why can’t DH?

You did mention that you are a primary school teacher and were a nanny for 20 years. Presumably this was an area you had an aptitude for and then have spent many years refining.

I agree his was is lazy and rough, but also think a big part of this is him coming to parenting for the first time at 47, and being still fairly new at dealing with a toddler. Forcing tooth brushing is not ideal but also very common. Your approach is the one I took with my eldest, but not always my less docile middle child or my youngest as I simply didn't have the time. Not everyone has your skills, patience or time.

Would he read a book on some strategies? 'Playful Parenting' is a good book that my DH found helpful, it was also written by a man so short circuits any discussion about male/female ways of doing things. Similarly the Dr Sears discipline book - it comes from an attachment parenting perspective, so is focussed on helping with appropriate behaviours without forcing or punishment.

And you mustn't push him again. You are going to cause the environment you are trying to avoid.

This is strange because I've searched on here before about tooth brushing (have a nightmare with toddler dd) and was horrified to see unanimous advice you need to hold them down and force it if needs be. There are also youtube videos about 'safe' restraints and holds, one of which was shared to me by a dentist friend. We spend a long, long time negotiating, cajoling, coming up with stories. The holding down has happened a few times, but only when we've felt it necessary and all other means have been exhausted. However I don't think its innately a problem, the issue is everything around it and how it is done.

I also grew up in a shouty house and have married someone who never raises his voice and is totally chilled. He has restrained dd when needed, including tooth brushing, but it is always done in a calm in-control way. I think you might be focusing on the wrong thing - if it is possible to negotiate teeth brushing and he doesn't bother, thats wrong. However it sounds like the main thing is he makes these interactions like a punishment, and they're about him exerting control rather than achieving the aim of removing her from danger/getting her teeth brushed.

I'd focus on that, and possibly consider some kind of parenting classes you could take together. If you're a teacher does he feel like you are pushing your way of doing things? Have you ever talked about your attitude to her and discipline? We have a really shared approach we've discussed, we don't want our daughter exposed to anger or shouting, but we have slipped up. I've raised my voice, and DH has said it to me afterwards, but its more about holding each other to account rather than recrimination. It sounds like he just doesn't agree with your approach, and I think thats something you need to urgently address.

@CastleOfDoom I just simply don’t agree that physically pushing children around to get them to do what you want is in any way ‘parenting’.

I pushed him because I wanted to show him that what he is doing is dominating her physically and it is not right. I shouldn’t have done this and I’ve apologised.
If your husband forced you to get dressed by pinning you down you could press charges against him. Your children don’t have the power to do this even though it’s much worse because of the inherent power imbalance.

He sounds like a bully and the language of "forcing" is quite creepy.

I don’t know about you but I don’t answer to the dentist. They aren’t my tooth boss confused

Really? If the dentist said I wasn't cleaning her teeth enough, I'd probably explain why, e.g. she hates having them done... Quite simple, no need for "begging forgiveness and looking remorseful". I wouldn't get an attitude about it either though, because of course it would be my fault, it would be neglect.

I can relate to the poor childhood making you doubt yourself but I agree with your position.

Yes it’s frustrating and time consuming to wait and use language rather then actions but I think it’s the way to go.

He probably sees it as you undermining him but if you don’t challenge this behaviour where will it stop? Keep asserting your boundaries and challenging him when he uses force.

She’s only 3. Remind him of that.

We Do brush her teeth! That is not the point of this thread. Her teeth are perfectly clean and healthy and attended to twice daily!

am able to get her to have teeth brushed everyday without drama!

Sure, by sitting down until she gets bored, which is OK if you don't have to be out the door any time soon to get to school or an appointment, when you don't have time to sit waiting for her to "make the right decision".

Thank you all so much for your considered replies.
I hope he and I can meet later to discuss everything.

Waiting for her to make the right decision takes 2 minutes!

I agree with you @Callardandbowser and have regularly been horrified at posters on MN whio say that its ok to pin down your child to brush their teeth. No concept of usng bryte force on a 3yo nor on the fact that doing so will be painful for the child (try and see how it feels when someone else brushes your teeth, let alone if you are resisting).

So yes I fuly agree and also agree that men have that idea that using force like this is OK even if only as a 'last resort'.
Your dh might need to learn other techniques but it doesnt excuse that sort of attitude.

Using force as a default parenting strategy is piss poor.

When you add in the dynamic that he's a man teaching his daughter that she should 'submit' to bigger/stronger makes it becomes more toxic. His behaviour to her will influence her behaviour to men later in life. He should be empowering her not teaching her to do what the 'big man' says

If your husband forced you to get dressed by pinning you down you could press charges against him.

If my partner shut me in my bedroom or made me sit on the "naughty step" for a time-out, or confiscated my iPad, or told me I couldn't have dessert because I didn't eat all my dinner... That would also be abuse. Lots of things parents do to children would be abusive/controlling if done to another adult.

@Ketrina

The aim isn't to get the three year old to brush her teeth. The aim should be to teach the three year old, every day and in every little way, how we relate to, live with, love other people.

Tell that to the dentist when they ask why you haven't been brushing your kid's teeth.

Oh FFS.

Yes OF COURSE they have to brush their teeth!

And, hmm, guess what? This particular three year old does do that. Courtesy of the mother who takes the fucking time and has the tiniest bit of insight into how to parent in order to tackle it this way:

About the teeth/ medicine thing. I can get her to do these things ‘in relationship’ with her. Yes sometimes it takes longer than I would wish but my goal is always to remain ‘in relationship’ with her and say “I would like you to brush your teeth now” if she runs away, I don’t turn it into a fun game by chasing her, I just sit in the bathroom with her toothbrush in my hand until she gets bored and comes to find me and make the right choice. It is the same with all my interactions with her.

The thread isn't about brushing teeth. That's only one example the OP has used to illustrate what this IS about - which is her DH's unpleasant way of parenting as soon as he comes up against normal boundary pushing.

Signed - parent with two teens without a filling between them...

Sometimes some children do need to be held for things like toothbrushing, my son still occasionally does, if I chose not to clean his teeth when he didn’t want me to I would be neglecting his physical health. He also gets fairly regular ear infections, getting that horrible banana flavour medicine down him is an absolute nightmare, to the point that he was once hospitalised due to sepsis.

I know its frustrating when they’re stubborn, but that should lead to anger etc, emailing a partner rather than talking to them face to face is really quite weird. Why aren’t you able to have a reasonable conversation together? Surely you should be able to talk about anything?

@Muchadoaboutlife

She’s 3. He’s a total prick. I suggest you take some legal advice because where is he going to stop? Holding a 3 year old to physically brush their teeth against their will? Nope.

That's exactly what you do, teeth are none negotiable. No wonder so many bairns are getting teeth removed if that's the attitude these days.

@Ketrina

am able to get her to have teeth brushed everyday without drama!

Sure, by sitting down until she gets bored, which is OK if you don't have to be out the door any time soon to get to school or an appointment, when you don't have time to sit waiting for her to "make the right decision".

Oh I see.

You're another one who pushes their kids around if they don't immediately make everything go super smooth for YOU.

ok makes sense now

The teeth brushing is a red herring and not the issue at all.

Constraining a child to get them to do what you want is abusive. My DH used to hold my DC tightly to prevent him having a tantrum when he was a toddler. It nearly split us up - and only made the behaviour 10 times worse anyway.

You are definitely not being over-sensitive. Don't let him tell you that your response is over-reaction, it really is not.

To thodse saying that sometimes you have no choice...

You always do.
You might want to leave that tme if you are really in a rush. The child won't die.
You might decide to start the teeth brushing earlier on or to get the child up 10mins earlier to take the 'fight' into account.
You might decide to lt your child brush their teeth themselves instead, get them a novelty tootbrush they love etc etc
The list is endless.

but the best I have found is to establish clear boudaries and to make it clear that when you say something you mean it. It doesnt have to involve physical force or taking the risk of hurting the child or putting in their mind that of they are getting hurt and forced bysomeone stronger than them (let alone a man), then its their fault :(

@Ketrina true. And I don't do any of the things you’ve listed to my daughter and she is a superstar.

I've also held my kid to get their teeth cleaned, and found it intolerable so looked for another solution (the Duggee Toothbrushing song on a phone).

Even when I did it it was calm and I certainly wasn't shouting or blaming . I think that sounds horrible. Your DH is a grown up, he just can't say "you made me do it". How is he going to teach your DD not to hit others, as she can use the same logic by turning around and saying "they made me do it"??

Is he amenable to thinking through a different parenting strategy together? I'd give him the book "Playful Parenting". He sounds immature to be honest, and defensive.

I actually think your method of waiting calmly is the right one. It has consequences - super boring time for the toddler and no interaction from you, which is why she comes to brush her teeth after a bit. Its also good to have these sort of techniques at your disposal because (as I found when I hurt my back) there might be times when you cant physically wrestle them into doing things so its good to have other techniques in play. Also what do you do if you are restraining the toddler to eg. brush their teeth and they bite you - its easy for these things to escalate.
That said, as is clear from this thread, other people have different views, toothbrushing in particular is one thing that lots of people would argue justifies physically restraining them because it is actually preventing physical harm long term. SO I dont think its the case that he is abusive etc, just has a different parenting style (and is maybe less experienced). SO maybe if you could talk it through again but calmly, maybe both do a course etc that might help.