DH says “you’re making me force you” to DD

[Callardandbowser]

DH has lately started to say to DD (age 3) “Don’t make me force this” to DD when she’s resisting something like for example having her teeth brushed. I have found DD has really started to push boundaries lately (as they all do) but I never use my physical strength to ‘win’ in the battle of wills because I’m stronger so it’s (in my opinion) an abuse of power.

If DD won’t cooperate with having her teeth brushed, DH holds her really strongly so she can’t move and brushes her teeth.

Yesterday was bad. DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off.

I was really disturbed by this interaction because again he blamed her for him essentially losing his temper.

I have sent him a long email (because I don’t have the energy for an argument) explaining that I don’t want him to blame DD for him being physically dominating.

When I confronted him about the fact that he is a 50 year old man and has an inherent advantage over her. He really stuck to his guns and said that he will do the same to the cat if she’s breaking something (ie pick her up and take her away). I said that the cat is an animal, you can’t communicate to a cat in words he then shouted “It’s about time DD learns to do as she’s told” (for context DD is the best behaved kid I’ve ever come across, I’m a primary school teacher and have nannied for many children for 20 years so) I’m not just being biased.
I said that using force when dealing with behaviour is unacceptable and he just stood his ground and said that he will continue to do this if they are breaking possessions.

I said that the only time parents should intervene physically is when the child is endangering themselves or others. He just said that I am judgemental and that that’s just my view.

This is the worst bit. I then pushed him. I have never done this before and it really has disturbed me. I have apologised to him, I wanted to show him the behaviour that he was justifying. But in doing so I became a hypocrite and of course my point is lost.

I grew up in a shouty, unsafe home and I’m worried that I’m just being over-sensitive and I’ve made a mountain out of a molehill.

DH has never hit/ smacked/ hurt DD and never would but still I don’t like the vibe of his forcefulness or his behaviour management skills.

Please be gentle. I know mn can be a bit of a tricky place to ask for advice must I feel all over the place today and could do without people being mean.

Thanks for reading.

I try to tune out of the “it never did me any harm” brigade because they’re usually quite traumatised adults who can be seen re-enacting the abuse and disappointment on their own children that was acted out on them as children.

Swings and roundabouts. Nobody here is saying "my parents beat me with a belt and I'm ok" are they? they're saying that their parents explained consequences ("if you want to go to the party you'd better not get in trouble at school").

I think writing your DH a mail might have been a mistake. Usually it's better to discuss this type of thing at a time when you're both relaxed and not right after he's been shouty or whatever.

This doesnt mean its the best way to parent a child or that it is appropriate.

No, you just sit there and wait for them to do the right thing, with a class full of 30 kids. Of course not one will ever need something a bit more than a "nicely nicely, gentle gentle" approach

You’re right, @Ketrina, you really don’t get the point.

The thing that we found works is that I brush my teeth, he does his and then we 'swap' and do each others' - he likes this, but it also taught me that it is horrible having someone else stick a toothbrush in your mouth, and made me all the more determined to find any other way than holding him down to do it!

THIS will bells on.
I really think that people who think its ok to pin a child down to brush their teeth ahve never had someone doing to it. It can be horrible and painful. I dont think any adult would be happy to be put through that twice a day.
Actually I would dasy its likely to have the opposite effect and pout a child off brushing their teeth altogether as they will automatically associate teeth brushing with pain.

@Ketrina

I wouldn’t get defensive at the dentist. I didn’t suggest I would. My comments were in response to your post trying to put OP back in her place by smugly suggesting she would have explain herself to the dentist.

Eh? So if the dentist said "Ah could do with more brushing, having any issues?" or something, you'd just... Get defensive? Not say anything? Say "I don't have to explain anything to you?"

If not, I don't get your point. Of course you have to answer to the dentist in some way, or if it gets referred higher, explain to someone else.

There's a difference being answering someone and being answerable to them.

Most parents who have a tricky time with something child related would say 'we're finding it hard, we are trying xyz - do you have any other ideas' then decide if they want to try them and when.

Surely it's clear people aren't saying they wouldn't answer a dentist's question, they're saying they aren't answerable to them.

OP and others have clearly said what they would do, it's clearly different to what you would do. There's a time when agreeing to disagree is fine, rather than continuing to labour the point and sounding very wound up about it.

Well, sometimes you do have to coerce children. I held my small child down every 3 days for the best part of a couple of years to change a cannula that was keeping him alive. And believe me we tried every alternative strategy that both we and the psychiatrist could come up with! He’s now a lovely happy 12yo who did his own cannula change for the first time yesterday and I’m very proud of him.

If you’ve got a 3yo who agrees to toothbrushing after 2 minutes you don’t have much of a problem though. Has your dh got worse (angrier, less patient) this year? Lots of people are falling apart in their own individual ways at the moment.

@Callardandbowser

I’m not sat there for a long time and neither of us ends up stressed or upset. This has only happened once or twice and now she just does it straight away because I’ve never allowed it to become a battle. She’s very cooperative for a three year old and I feel very lucky for that.

Exactly - you're lucky with your child. Try having a child with behavioural issues such as autism! You wouldn't be 'perfect parent who never needs to use any discipline' then, believe me!!!!!!! Your approach would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot with my autistic child.

Oh and confiscating items and grounding are well known, time tested methods of disciplining children. They are NOT abusive ffs! I genuinely don't get how/why you think it possible to raise children with no discipline whatsoever. It's staggers me.

@Ketrina

This doesnt mean its the best way to parent a child or that it is appropriate.

No, you just sit there and wait for them to do the right thing, with a class full of 30 kids. Of course not one will ever need something a bit more than a "nicely nicely, gentle gentle" approach

We are not talking about a class of 30 here but a parent at home with ONE child.

Abd it still doesn't mean its OK.
Just like using the slipper at school isn't OK (but was very common not so long ago). And didnt actually made the children ebave much better than they are now anyway.

@Meuniere

And btw *@SimonJT*, before pinning child down, you can also disguise, put into food etc...

I've done a lot of that for my own dcs when they had some health issues. Even though the medication they were taking was foul (I mean really foul, ABs are like sweet compare to those), they learn to take them. Granted they won't tuch the stuff now that they are teens and probably won't unless they have no other choice. But they did and I never had to use force.

Really?! OMG I didn’t think of that

@DC3Dakota, I have a chid with autism.
I've never pinned him down. Actually if anything he is the last child I would have used those techniques with .....

We are not talking about a class of 30 here but a parent at home with ONE child.

Keep up, I was mentioning school because she said Time-Outs were abusive, so I said they were used at my DDs school, thar comment was in relation to that, not her singular child.

@JellyBabiesSaveLives

Well, sometimes you do have to coerce children. I held my small child down every 3 days for the best part of a couple of years to change a cannula that was keeping him alive. And believe me we tried every alternative strategy that both we and the psychiatrist could come up with! He’s now a lovely happy 12yo who did his own cannula change for the first time yesterday and I’m very proud of him.

If you’ve got a 3yo who agrees to toothbrushing after 2 minutes you don’t have much of a problem though. Has your dh got worse (angrier, less patient) this year? Lots of people are falling apart in their own individual ways at the moment.

Well done mini JellyBaby!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻 What a grown up lad! 👦🏻 💙

[quote Meuniere]@DC3Dakota, I have a chid with autism.
I've never pinned him down. Actually if anything he is the last child I would have used those techniques with .....[/quote]
I never suggested pinning any child down????

He is a bully and his behaviour is unacceptable. I think you know this but are hoping it's not true. This is not good for you and is terrible for your daughter. He is using his physical strength to dominate her to do what he wants, when he wants. Little kids test boundaries all the time and that is healthy and normal. Activities that take minutes as an adult can take ages with a kid. Parenting requires calm, kind, firm behaviour. He is not modelling that. He is using physical force and it is wrong. Please do act. Confide in a friend or relative and potentially look at ways of getting out. I do not think this is a healthy relationship. x

Could you righteous toothbrush-wielding lot perhaps stop derailing?

This is Relationships, not AIBU.

The kid's teeth are fine. It's the husband who is being physically domineering and unpleasant that is the issue here.

Surely it's clear people aren't saying they wouldn't answer a dentist's question, they're saying they aren't answerable to them.

Of course you're not answerable to them, but then who are you waiting to be answerable to? Social services? I don't get the mindset of "I don't answer to the dentist" because they have no power or something. And if you would answer their questions... I just don't get the point of the comment. You're still at the dentist with a child with rotten teeth (in the theoretical siruation) and you'd still answer their questions... You may not be answerable to them but they can refer you to someone you are answerable to.

I don't why people keep telling OP that she's lucky or being unfair because her child is unusually compliant. That may well be the case but her DH is parenting the exact same child so the fact that some children may need to be physically forced is irrelevant because this one doesn't

Hmm. I don't believe in force or instilling fear but I do believe in setting boundaries and teaching right from wrong. I am talking about neuro typical children here.

SIL one believes is distraction and would not set boundaries or teach right from wrong because it was an opinion.

Guess whose children grew up well socialised, hard working and have done well at school.

Have you really got to the point where it is necessary to send your DH an email to talk about this situation? That's what I find most troubling about this situation. Often parents can find themselves in different spaces on the parenting spectrum but it usually doesn't descend into firing off emails alluding to incompetence.

Is this an email that will actually make a difference to his behaviour or is this an email to tell him all the colours of shit he is without interruption? Because, while the latter is tempting I would bear in mind that, in the absence of neglect, he'll be free to carry on as he is in his own time.

Would you consider going on a parenting course, the pair of you, to find some common ground or understanding within a mutual conversation on parenting that might achieve some tangible difference that is persuasive enough to stick?

Why the sarcasm @SimonJT??

You might not have managed to find the right way to make your child take ABs, despite the fact it was essential (unlike the teeth brushing). This doesnt mean everyone hasnt manged to do that nor that it was the only way to tackle the issue.
This is what worked for me. Why do you think it's OK to diminish something that has worked??

My point is I have always found another way. Sometimes it will look obvious. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you have to go side ways. But I beleive there is ALWAYS another way.

Because, while the latter is tempting I would bear in mind that, in the absence of neglect, he'll be free to carry on as he is in his own time....should your marriage collapse.

You’re right, @Ketrina, you really don’t get the point.

That you're not answerable to the dentist? Fine, if you'd feel no shame in that kind of situation. I never said you were answerable to them, but explaining is just what you do. I never said anyone had to beg forgiveness from the dentist, it was you who completely exaggerated my original comment.

@Ketrina

Surely it's clear people aren't saying they wouldn't answer a dentist's question, they're saying they aren't answerable to them.

Of course you're not answerable to them, but then who are you waiting to be answerable to? Social services? I don't get the mindset of "I don't answer to the dentist" because they have no power or something. And if you would answer their questions... I just don't get the point of the comment. You're still at the dentist with a child with rotten teeth (in the theoretical siruation) and you'd still answer their questions... You may not be answerable to them but they can refer you to someone you are answerable to.

Goodness me you're so angry!

Have you read OP's posts rather than doubling down?

Her child does brush their teeth twice a day. On a couple of occasions she's resisted and when this happens the mum has found a way that works for their family.

The child is apparently well adjusted and happy, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

You are using a straw man argument by bringing in SS etc to the equation.

If a child appears to be neglected, someone could refer them. This child clearly isn't and will not have rotting teeth from the odd occasion they resist brushing. Especially when it's resolved each time. The threshold for a dentist or other mandated reporter to refer to SS is not anywhere near the situation described.

You've clung on to the tooth brushing element of this when it's a minor example within a larger picture then doubled down when people have pointed out your making a big deal of it in this situation.

It's starting to sound very silly now, there's no point you getting so worked up about it!

Have you and your dh read this book?

www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-ebook/dp/B00APJOY3A/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&quartzVehicle=111-1480&keywords=how+to+talk+so+kids+will+listen+book&sprefix=how+to+talk+&replacementKeywords=how+to+talk+so+kids+listen+book&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1604922737&sr=8-2

I was also raised in a shouty household OP, with a physically overbearing father and it can have a lasting impact. It also makes us doubt ourselves, because we were constantly pulled up about things. My husband used to pull our child up (in the sense of 'don't do this or that') too much but I am a firm believer in letting a child get away with a few things - there is a difference between being naughty and being a child - I have rarely found anything a 3 year old does to be naughty. I used to work in a nursery, and one of the first things I stopped when I was promoted was putting children on the 'quiet corner' where they would sob. It disgusted me then and still does, children of that age are inquisitive not naughty. She opened her toy to see what was inside? What a clever, inquisitive girl! She wouldn't brush her teeth? Neither do many other children at 3, a quick bribe of something usually works. It really isn't the end of the world if she misses a brush of her baby teeth. So she gets angry at times and has a tantrum? Good, she should be able to express herself in this perfectly normal way for a 3 year old. Your child is 3 OP - not 10, and if he thinks her behaviour warrants being physically forced to do something, then I am so sorry, but I feel that he is being abusive. As I said before, our upbringing of always being told off makes us doubt ourselves. Don't let the same thing happen to your daughter. Xx