DH says “you’re making me force you” to DD

[Callardandbowser]

DH has lately started to say to DD (age 3) “Don’t make me force this” to DD when she’s resisting something like for example having her teeth brushed. I have found DD has really started to push boundaries lately (as they all do) but I never use my physical strength to ‘win’ in the battle of wills because I’m stronger so it’s (in my opinion) an abuse of power.

If DD won’t cooperate with having her teeth brushed, DH holds her really strongly so she can’t move and brushes her teeth.

Yesterday was bad. DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off.

I was really disturbed by this interaction because again he blamed her for him essentially losing his temper.

I have sent him a long email (because I don’t have the energy for an argument) explaining that I don’t want him to blame DD for him being physically dominating.

When I confronted him about the fact that he is a 50 year old man and has an inherent advantage over her. He really stuck to his guns and said that he will do the same to the cat if she’s breaking something (ie pick her up and take her away). I said that the cat is an animal, you can’t communicate to a cat in words he then shouted “It’s about time DD learns to do as she’s told” (for context DD is the best behaved kid I’ve ever come across, I’m a primary school teacher and have nannied for many children for 20 years so) I’m not just being biased.
I said that using force when dealing with behaviour is unacceptable and he just stood his ground and said that he will continue to do this if they are breaking possessions.

I said that the only time parents should intervene physically is when the child is endangering themselves or others. He just said that I am judgemental and that that’s just my view.

This is the worst bit. I then pushed him. I have never done this before and it really has disturbed me. I have apologised to him, I wanted to show him the behaviour that he was justifying. But in doing so I became a hypocrite and of course my point is lost.

I grew up in a shouty, unsafe home and I’m worried that I’m just being over-sensitive and I’ve made a mountain out of a molehill.

DH has never hit/ smacked/ hurt DD and never would but still I don’t like the vibe of his forcefulness or his behaviour management skills.

Please be gentle. I know mn can be a bit of a tricky place to ask for advice must I feel all over the place today and could do without people being mean.

Thanks for reading.

@Meuniere

Why the sarcasm *@SimonJT*??

You might not have managed to find the right way to make your child take ABs, despite the fact it was essential (unlike the teeth brushing). This doesnt mean everyone hasnt manged to do that nor that it was the only way to tackle the issue.
This is what worked for me. Why do you think it's OK to diminish something that has worked??

My point is I have always found another way. Sometimes it will look obvious. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you have to go side ways. But I beleive there is ALWAYS another way.

The right way for him is sometimes forcing him, would you like him to be hospitalised with sepsis again? Try seeing his reaction in hospital, in February he had to be restrained by two nurses while nurse three did a blood test.

I wish I could always persuade DD (2) to let me brush her teeth. But, sometimes I’ve failed and have had to hold her still to get it done.

DD knows why her teeth need brushing twice a day. She has a book about going to the dentist and we’ve talked about it. I let DD start off by brushing her own teeth and I’ve let her brush mine (which made her laugh). And we have a song about tooth-brushing.

But sometimes, when DD is tired, she becomes completely irrational and beyond reason. Waiting for her to calm down doesn’t always work, as she’s just getting more and more tired.

A few weeks ago, DD had a strop when we were crossing a (very quiet) road and refused to move. I didn’t want to stand in the road discussing it. I hauled her kicking and screaming to the pavement and we talked about it then. Some things are negotiable and some things aren’t.

Have you really got to the point where it is necessary to send your DH an email to talk about this situation?

The email jumped out too. I mean, it is possible that OP manages to get her point across more articulately over text? You can build an argument quite nicely over a long text or an email, some people do better that way than verbally discussing as you can get sidetracked by the other person's responses. Could be because he's controlling the convo/blocking it out too of course.

@Dddaddy

I had to hold one of my DDs to brush her teeth.

Well there's a surprise.

@Sparklfairy

Some men (not all) have learned that their physical size and strength can be used to get what they want. Often it's used subconsciously as a last resort, but in the back of their mind it's always there; that they know they can 'win' by simply being stronger/bigger/intimidating.

It shows a lack of emotional maturity in my view. Women don't have this last resort of what is essentially brute force and intimidation, so tend to have developed different negotiating skills to get what they want.

When he's at work or with friends, I can guarantee he doesn't physically force anyone to do anything he wants. So it boils down to dominating and bullying. If you can get him to get his head around that he's only physically forcing your DD because she is smaller and weaker and he's asserting himself as 'the boss', then you might get somewhere. It's lazy parenting imo to skip straight to the 'I'll just force you to do it because I can' approach.

This is a really good point

Im on the fence here really.In an ideal world young children would happily brush their teeth ,take their medicine and so on.However they are all wilful at times! I dont agree with forcing her really ,as she may then associate TB with a scary time.At 50 DH is an older father of young DC .Can he cope do you think? I know many Rockstars are older DF but they all have Nannies to do the TB and boring bits!

@1starwars2

She needs to brush her teeth. Some things are non negotiable. Letting her teeth go unbrushed at 3 would be neglectful. I think you are projecting from your childhood and she is a lovely child with 2 caring parents.

"*DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off "

Yeah, he sounds really loving doesn't he....

My childhood also makes me realise how normalised scary men are and that I mustn’t see it as normal when men are dominating my daughter lest the cycle continue.
I have the same feeling OP, partly from my upbringing and the fact that I lost respect for my mother when she lost control and started yelling and slapping with her face bright red. And partly as someone who was attacked by a would-be rapist taking advantage of his physique. It all feels like part of the same thing to me. I have a bf with a 10yo and he stopped his daughter doing something by picking her up and carrying her away - she was yelling blue murder at that point. Afterwards I told him exactly this - that it all felt like part of the same depressing fact of life, that women and girls are weaker than men, and some men take advantage of it. Not that he was in the same category as those men, but that he shouldn't be making it feel normal. And that it is just so fucking depressing! He was a bit pissed off at that moment, as I don't normally say anything about his parenting - not my child - but for some reason it came up weeks later and he mentioned that he was trying to avoid doing that any more.
Maybe you can let it drop for now but then have another, calmer chat of an evening?

It sounds like you want everyone to agree that you’re the superior parent compared to DH, but I think you’re being far too dramatic.

Very few people live in a perfect world where everyone has endless time and patience.

I agree that your DH should have chosen his words more carefully but he was not abusive in any real sense.

To resort to sending an email to correct his behaviour suggests that you are unable to accept that you have different but valid parenting styles.

Personally I think you’re wrong to believe that only your way is acceptable and realistically, if you can’t learn to compromise and accept his slightly clumsy method of parenting, then you’re heading for separation and divorce.

I don't really agree with the holding down to brush teeth, but I also don't believe that distraction should be used as a method of getting children to do as they are told. They need to learn that what they are doing is wrong not have the subject changed and distracted or they will never learn. They weren't put on this earth with a rule book.

I think the language he is using and you sending him an email are the major issues. Most people have had to coerce there DC into doing something be it brushing teeth (my DD in your example would have walked away for a few hours but we did the brushing each others teeth but sometimes that didn't work either) or medication, and as long as its not all the time its fine. I do think the comments on here are two sides that are too far either way. IMO DC do need to know that they do what their DPs ask and the word 'no' but DPs should try various techniques to get DC to understand why they need to do things.

Also you seem pretty certain you are right, so what advice are you looking for? You said your upbringing made you question if you were bring sensitive, but anyone that has suggested you are, you have made it clear that you disagree. I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to get to the bottom of what you are looking for? Do you feel your DH is abusive towards you? Are you looking for support to identify that more clearly and move forward?

This sounds like difficult behaviour from your DH. He is resorting to bullying to get your daughter to comply AND he is just not prepared to listen to you, because you felt obliged to email him about it. You know a great deal about kids, as you say you are a teacher. He should listen to you because of this and the fact that you are her primary career. He is using this behaviour to trigger you too, so he is intimidating both of you. If he knows about your past and cares deeply for you, he should be listening and prepared to try new ways of doing things. The fact that you pushed him is another indicator to me that you have no faith in him listening to what you say. I also think you are angry with him on behalf of your daughter. Rightly so.

My DP is sometimes astounded at how I've managed to do something like move a chest freezer from one house to another, or fix something, because he only thinks to use his strength to do a thing, because he is tall and strong, and I don't have that strength or height, so have to use cunning instead. I think this is kinda like what's going on here.

I've seen DP with the kids sometimes just butt heads, rather than take a moment to explain or understand, because it just doesn't occur to him to do so rather than bulldoze through what he wants.

Having said that, I've sat on my youngest to cut his toenails, and pinned him down to give him antibiotics, and wrapped him in a coat like a straight jacket when a toddler to stop him escaping before he had his jabs - because he had no capacity for reason around these things (unlike his brother who could be explained to).

What I don't know is what you can do about it OP. I think it might get better as she gets older, and learns how to deal with him, then again it might get worse if she decides to deal with him by fighting back. As the adult, he needs to be the one to think and modify his behaviour here, but it doesn't sound like he's willing to.

Blimey people way to miss the point!

OP has a method of ensuring teeth get cleaned/other required action which is not aggressive or confrontational. Her dh's method is essentially bullying.

OP ask him which method he thinks is the better one, and if he agrees the non-confrontational version then he needs to be open to learning this method. If he refuses to, or thinks the aggressive shouty version is better then you have some thinking to do.

My kids dentist said never to be negative about teeth brushing. Always focus on the positives and give lots of praise.

I think your DH sounds like a lazy and inpatient father. He can't be bothered making the effort, so just resorts to force. It isn't good, but it sounds like he has no interest in changing.

Ok so your partner made her brush her teeth. Big deal. What do you need advice on?

I think i agree with the pp's saying that your experience working with young children means you'll have more natural aptitude and learnt skills to get the best out of your Dd. Your husband doesn't have this.

We have a similar issue in our house, dh is constantly butting heads with 6yo because in my view he doesn't day things the right way to elicit cooperation. I started a thread asking for recommendations of parenting books. I'm hoping he will do some reading, because frankly it's very hard going in this house at the mo and I think he's eroding dd's confidence and worth.

Also I have also been known to email my husband and once my mum, so that I can set out my case clearly.

@Branleuse

Ok so your partner made her brush her teeth. Big deal. What do you need advice on?

DD was bored because she’d been in all morning and started to pull a part off one of her soft toys. Instead of distracting her, DH raised his voice repeatedly at her and ended up snatching the toy off her which made her fall over. He then continued to tell her off

Things like this I'd imagine.

Ultimately, OP, you're a teacher. I presume your DH isn't? So you've had a fair amount of explicit training in behaviour management. If he hasn't, he will find it tougher than you to manage behaviour, so he will fall back on what he knows from his own childhood and what makes sense to him. I don't think holding a kid still to brush their teeth is abusive and if the option is that or no tooth brushing (remember, no matter how good she is for you, she may not behave as well for him) I'd go for the restraint.

Show or tell him how to achieve the results you want, rather than just berating his current parenting tools without giving him any new ones.

Your partner sounds domineering and insensitive, doubling down on his methods when 'criticised' and becoming even more entrenched. He sounds like he has no parenting skills, a short temper, uses his physicality against a small girl and has demonstrated a complete unwillingness to listen to any other ideas.

He needs parenting courses.
You are not overreacting.

I wouldn't be sticking around with a bully boy prick, but if you want to salvage things I would start with family counselling.

To those posters banging on about teeth... I think you're missing the point somewhat. Not sure why, but some mumsnetters just never miss a chance to express their own superiority. I love looking out for it. They are mainly unleashed by: lunch box threads, how much sex in a marriage and children doing 'chores' without complaint.

You both have different styles of parenting based on different upbringings and you BOTH need to find common ground, and that doesn’t mean doing everything your way either. I doubt you’re the perfect parent so stop shaming your DH- perfect parents don’t exist. It’s not okay that you’re pushing him either, can you imagine the uproar if it was the other way round and he had pushed you? Everyone would be telling you how much of a bastard he is and to leave him.

just berating his current parenting tools without giving him any new ones
Berating is indeed not the best approach, but even if OP is more experienced, I'd suggest that it might be good for her DH to learn his own methods. When I first had kids I was pretty clueless as I hadn't had any examples of parenting without threats and slapping. At one point I even tried smacking - but felt so bad that I realised I simply couldn't do it any more. But then, once it had been ruled out, I was forced to be more creative, and eventually had some techniques of my own plus the confidence that comes with it. I'm not sure I'd have achieved that by following someone else's instructions -- especially instructions I didn't even want to hear.

Brushing teeth and washing hair often involved force with mine at that age. I wasn't prepared to let them have rotten teeth and dirty hair and some things are just non negotiable. Sometimes I think it is less painful for everyone concerned to just get on and do it rather than have a running battle with negotiations and bribery for half the night.

I also don't like children deliberately breaking toys. I'd also physically stop them hurting each other or running in the road or hurting an animal (to be fair they never did that but I would stop them if they did.)

@ravenmum Maybe, but I think it depends on the individual. I'm not a creative type, so everything I do parenting-wise (and, indeed, in pretty much anything) is an idea I've seen or read or been told of elsewhere. I pick the ones I like best and discard the rest. I agree you've got to find methods that work for you, but in my experience lots of parents never come up with their own strategies (or come up with poor strategies).

Those saying you can't force teeth cleaning on a child are basically endorsing neglect. A parent needs to clean the child's teeth if the child wont do it themselves using force if need be.