DD and boyfriend -- has anyone ever successfully got past this?

[thepeopleversuswork]

Please be gentle with me on this: I know its a contentious subject and lots of you will say I shouldn't be dating at all, but its causing me a lot of heartache at the moment.

Have been with my boyfriend for two years. We don't live together. I have a 9 year old DD. When I first met him I was very clear that we had to take things very slowly -- she didn't meet him for six months etc and moving in was not on the horizon any time in the short to medium term. For about the next six months he stayed at mine once a week. After about a year I slowly started to increase this so he was staying two nights a week. Then lockdown happened and we didn't see each other for nearly four months. We slowly started seeing one another in the summer.

DD's dad is under an injunction due to previous DV so she can't stay at his: the only time I get time away from her is with sleepovers etc, which obviously isn't allowed at the moment. And this, combined with lockdown, means the only way I can see him at the moment is if he comes to my house.

DD has become marginally more tolerant of my bf over time but basically she would rather he wasn't around. She is adamant that she doesn't want my bf staying at mine. After lockdown ended and when I first started seeing him again I anticipated this and told him he couldn't stay more than one night a week and would need to leave early in the mornings. He's been very accepting of this. He has generally been incredibly patient about everything.

DD is still very unhappy about him being in my life at all. She's had outbursts at him within minutes of his arriving and asked him to leave the house and he's always gone along with this. I've talked to her about it and she basically says she wants him to go away and doesn't want to share me with him. I asked her if she could ever imagine a scenario where he lived with us and she said no.

I've done some soul searching to think if there is anything he has done which could have upset or frightened her and there genuinely has been nothing. I've been incredibly careful about making sure she and I have plenty of quality time together on our own, he's rarely here for long during daylight hours and so forth. She obviously would prefer if I was back with her dad, but we have been separated since she was just four, so it isn't a new scenario.

I'm really agonising over how to deal with this now. When we first got together I anticipated that if I took things slowly and if he was patient with her she would eventually start to come around to him and she is still, two years in, pretty hostile to him. It's so difficult because he's incredibly patient and respectful and she is frankly horrible to him. He's still very kind and accepting of it but I can't help thinking eventually he will run out of patience.

The bottom line is that she comes first and if push comes to shove I would and will drop him for her, absolutely no question. But I feel like if she can't accept someone who is so obviously supportive of her and loves me, she may never accept anyone else. Maybe the reality is I have to make peace with the fact that I won't be able to have a relationship with someone until she has moved out.

I'm just curious to know if anyone else has been through something similar and got past it, how long it took and generally if anyone has any advice?

If you want to teach her that you and she don't need a man why are letting one stay in her life who is abusive and controlling just because he is her dad?

*Independence is a very important thing to teach, but you seem to be so hell bent on teaching her that women can stand up on their own, that you may be neglecting the need for you to model a healthy relationship and partnership for her.

Yes, teach her that women can and should be independent, but dont be afraid of showing her how a real adult partnership can be a great thing, and how a loving relationship is an addition to life and not a thing which steals her independence*

My mum is like this. She told my dad to fuck off before I was born (it was the right decision to be fair) I’ve never met him and don’t even know what he looks like. She was then in a relationship that was DV and I witnessed a lot. She then kicked him out. She’s never had another boyfriend.

She’s a very independent person and has always instilled in me the fact that women don’t need men, we can do everything ourselves and that I should never cry over any man etc etc. All fair enough BUT I’m now 36 and in only my second serious relationship that seems to be long term and at times I really struggle with how to act. I’ve spent my teenage and adult years telling men to fuck off, I don’t need them, at the first sign of any less than stellar behaviour. Her attitude, although good in principle, has actually been slightly detrimental in practice. It took me until I was 30 and had got to know myself a bit better to realise that it’s perfectly fine to have a cry when someone hurts your feelings or you break up with someone you liked. I’ve brought this up with her and she realises now that she maybe conveyed her thoughts in a very black and white way and it wasn’t completely correct.

I do think the way you’re reacting to PP’s re independence, you’ll probably actually do her more harm than good with this attitude. I agree with everyone else that’s saying she needs boundaries and you’re entitled to have a life aswell.

firewalkeruk

No one else "hands her over" to him -- he's not allowed unsupervised access to her under the terms of his probation, that's the whole problem. There isn't anyone else who can supervise because none of my friends have the time/bandwidth (and most of them couldn't tolerate being in his presence for that long anyway). The only way I could do it would be to pay to do it via a contact centre. It's exorbitantly expensive and just more trouble than it is worth so the way I've chosen to do it is via telephone and Zoom calls. When his probation ends (expected at the end of this year) he may be allowed unsupervised access and I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

I've had some very good advice on this forum and I'm very grateful, its opened my eyes. And I'm fully aware of what a toxic influence he is.

But please I don't want anyone else coming on to me I need to cut my ex out of her life. It's emotionally and logistically impossible to do that at the moment. I really have thought this through extensively and it just doesn't work. I just have to manage it as best I can and people telling me I need to do something about it when I've considered the options at nauseam isn't helpful.

That aside, this genuinely has been a very very helpful set of responses and I'm touched that you've all taken the time to respond.

SunshineCake

"If you want to teach her that you and she don't need a man why are letting one stay in her life who is abusive and controlling just because he is her dad?"

Because I've been legally ordered to maintain phone contact with him by a judge if I can't maintain supervised access (which I can't). And I don't have the money to contest this judgement.

To be honest if I was your partner if be reconsidering the relationship.

You have a nightmare ex, a child that is rude to him and you seem to be treating him a totally disposable. What's in it for him really? Relationships are supposed to be reciprocal and it seems to me like you are just letting him give and give with nothing in return.

From your DDs perspective I wonder if she is seeing that your boyfriend or any male friend is inferior to any female friend you have? As has been mentioned you would not accept or tolerate that level of behavior towards any of your female friends! Also if it were one you trusted enough to stay over at your house regularly and be close to etc. why on earth would it be ok for DD to be so rude and basically override your wishes to have a good and trusted friend stay!

Meanwhile the main male role model in her life emotionally abuses her yet the power dynamic is that she has to have a relationship with him and you (due to the law) actively support it and he is present in your home (via VC) despite how he treats you.

Blimey that's a lot on a 9 year old without clear boundaries and direction from you.

If the bar is set so a high to have a man in your life does that just demote their role in a family to be a sperm donor and then be apart from the family yet to carry on abusing them??

I'm not jumping on the bandwagon about you stopping contact because as you so it's court ordered.

What I am trying to say is that ALL relationships consist of compromise - even ones with parents/extended families/good friends. If you have healthy friendships or relationships then DD needs to compromise about what she thinks she wants (because actually she probably does want a loving and kind and secure male role model that makes her Mum happy brings added extra to her life) and accept that she is expected to be polite and accommodating of any friends you welcome into her home and that if she issues with them then yes she tells you but in an appropriate way such as seeking you out alone to talk to you whilst they are guests in your home.

There shouldn't be such differing rules between a good friend and your boyfriend on the basis that he is male?

Say at some point in the future the relationship needed to end anyway then that doesn't discount that whilst it was good and healthy it was a good model for her and hopefully if it did need to end you also show her that if a relationship changes to far from that then you do terminate it.

I am with @derigueurmortis on this one.

And with this pp saying
*To be honest if I was your partner if be reconsidering the relationship.

You have a nightmare ex, a child that is rude to him and you seem to be treating him a totally disposable. What's in it for him really? Relationships are supposed to be reciprocal and it seems to me like you are just letting him give and give with nothing in return.*

Dontknownow86

Seriously, what's the point of telling me this? I'm fully aware of this, which is why I've posted about it. Its an incredibly complex and sensitive situation to manage but hitting me over the head with something I'm already massively anxious about and have noted here several times is not very constructive.

I've totally accepted what you have all said about the need to shift the balance and committed to doing this. I understand that the balance has been wrong and that I need to take steps to correct this.

But having people come on to say "you know he's going to dump you don't you?" when they know I'm doing everything I can to mitigate this and still protect my child just seems verging on spiteful. I don't mind straight talk but that's just nasty.

@thepeopleversuswork

SunshineCake

"If you want to teach her that you and she don't need a man why are letting one stay in her life who is abusive and controlling just because he is her dad?"

Because I've been legally ordered to maintain phone contact with him by a judge if I can't maintain supervised access (which I can't). And I don't have the money to contest this judgement.

Apologies. I missed that. Do the minimum so you don't get into legal trouble but the maximum to protect your child, which I'm sure you are.

OP, have you taken your daughter to counselling? Recognise that most of these replies are from an adult perspective. For a child, the world is infinitely smaller and very different and as a child you're entirely powerless. Remember that unlike you, your daughter's main life experience of men has been your abusive ex. She would have suffered emotionally from the DV (even if you may think you've protected her from it) and the poor kid is very likely afraid that another man is going to enter her life again and make it a misery. On top of that, she would be feeling adult relationships are not secure, seeing as you and her dad split up, so there's nothing positive for her to expect from this relationship with this new man (i.e. a stranger intruding into her life) except yet more turmoil down the road.

She's not intentionally sabotaging your relationship, she's simply doing what is in her power to try to protect herself, which is perfectly understandable.

LilyWater

Yes she's having counselling through school. It's only just started.

I don't think your child is ready for you to have a relationship yet.

You are right not to ride roughshod over her feelings as so many parents do in your position.

Hope it works out, OP.

I understand you want to raise her to he strong and stand on her own two feet. And you are right, women don't NEED a man (or other woman). We can do perfectly well and be very fulfilled with a life by ourselves. But if she ever WANTS a relationship, she may struggle to make the dynamic work if she's never been around it.
My kids have never lived in a home with a happy, respectful relationship. We split when they were very young; all they know is me living alone with them. I do everything I can to make sure they are happy and fulfilled, but that is something they are missing. I cant do anything about it because I'm not going to settle for just any man. But if I found someone worth it, I wouldn't allow my children to behave the way your daughter is under the guise of independence because they also need to learn about being respectful of the needs of others, and being understanding. As long as the decision isnt rushed, and forced on them without taking a good long time to do it right.

You've done it right. You have no reason to think that living amongst 2 happy, respectful adults will prevent her from growing up independent. She has a strong mum, so she will learn that. She could also have a very happy and content mum.

Just do it slowly, introduce some firmness but stay positive and listen to her. Address her worries without telling him to leave. Let her see that he isnt something to he scared of.

OP, I'm going to go against the grain of some the other posts and advise that you should put your own daughter first, before any relationship with a man.

It's clear from your posts that your daughter is really suffering emotionally and bringing this (to her) strange man into her life is not going to help her heal from the wounds of a DV home plus the current drama with her own dad. She needs your full attention (which will naturally be divided if a boyfriend is on the scene) and to know that there is a parent who will put her first above everything else. If this was some discipline issue then I would say of course, don't let a child rule the roost but this isnt the case at all. If she does not get this support you increase the risk of having a very disturbed daughter during teenage years (I've seen this with my own eyes). As a child of divorce myself who was not too far from your daughter's age when my parents first split, it's literally your world breaking apart which adults simply cannot understand as it's such a different experience for a child. I was a quiet, well behaved child but I still remember the pain and behaviour change it caused me back then.

Many women, even without DV experience, choose not date seriously following a family split while their DC are growing up. I can see you have your daughter's interests close at heart and I would encourage you to continue to do so. You comparatively have all the time in the world to date but your daughter is at a critical stage where she needs your undivided attention, and before you know it, she will be grown up.

Hi OP I've read this thread and replies with interest. How long was there between you and her dad splitting up and the new man coming onto the scene?

I agree with previous posters that her rudeness needs to be tackled. But I'm confused myself as to how much we should put our children first and where we can strike a balance.

I've a broken marriage. The children don't see those dad at all. I went into a relationship a quickly and had 5 years with someone who was amazing with the kids but treated me awfully.

I waited for years to start dating but as I was approaching 50 and the kids were teenagers the time felt right. Only now my youngest hates my BF. This isn't based on anything my bf has said or done to him. I am trying to balance my DS feeling secure and important and comfortable in his home. And my right to a personal life. Not easy!

Alternatively, allowing her to grow up still afraid of men doeant sound like a great plan.

No one is saying move a random man in. But a man you have vetted, and who will be patient and careful, isnt a bad person to have around. With very strict boundaries, which can be decided with your daughter included in the conversation. Maybe 1 night a week. He comes round 30 minutes before her bed time, so just enough for a hello. See how she does. Take it very slowly, include her but dont allow the rudeness. Talk over how she felt the next day and if necessary give it a week in between before he stays again.

Anyone recall the edict in China one child only, my brother lives out there said it has raised 2 generations now of Emperors and princesses. So much invested in one child. He said this is detrimental to Chinas expansion plans because these babies now adults are so entitled. Their parents sacrificed so much to send them to school, universities in the UK, their grandchildren are now pretty much useless, overeducated fools.

What I am trying to say @thepeopleversuswork is if you had four kids her petulant voice would be lost in the hubbub of the others. You are over invested in your princess.

OP I think you've been amazingly patient as has your DP. I agree that treading carefully is important, as you are doing. I think now is the time to open up a dialogue with your DD about why she doesn't like your DP and why she doesn't want him to have the occasional 'sleepover'? It could be past trauma but it could also be envy/fear that he is 'stealing' her mother. A bit like jealousy of a sibling. Helping her talk is useful and saying that she'll be allowed sleepovers one day also. Another thing might be to incentivise her being polite with whatever she likes until it becomes the norm. Also can your DP get a a puppy and bring it round (half joking).

Op you have done everything with great care and consideration of your DDs feelings.
I agree with others, rudeness and bad behavior cannot be tolerated.

Time to stop the bad behaviour, and educate her on the need for you to have friends as well as her, teach her the importance of empathy for YOU, that it is a two way street.

Firm up the behaviour boundaries and stick to them. It is not unreasonable for your BF to come once a week, and she has to learn that your feelings matter too.

I remember I didn't like my Mum going out in the evenings to her keep fit and other hobby classes so I used to create merry hell.

I was merely being manipulative and trying to "win" aka be in control...

Thankfully my Mum didn't completely give in to it although I suspect she did to an extent tbh.

Your DD could actually just be very conflicted. Her Dad says you having a boyfriend is BAD and she wants to please her Dad very much. She can probably see he makes Mum happy, she probably does feel a bit excluded (two is company, three is a crowd) and tbh behaving outrageously has worked... but what it does do is not address how she really feels about it all underneath which is most likely confused and conflicted!

Having 4 children what I have observed is that there is far far less competition for parental attention than with 2 because there is no direct competition or comparison.

There is a very different dynamic when it is just you and her against the world and then suddenly (in her eyes) you are trying to change that.

@justasking111 but how can the OP magic up the hubbub of 4 kids?

It's actually quite insensitive to say that sort of thing to parents of one child families who are just being sensitive to the needs of their child. And yes that might require a different approach in a one versus multiple child family.

@DeRigueurMortis

Ok I'm going to put my steel pants on for this one.....

Imho you've handled the situation appropriately apart from one aspect and that's putting up with your DD's behaviour for so long.

Her being rude to him within minutes of him being in the house is unacceptable.

You're teaching her that she can use your love for her to manipulate you and bend you to her will. That's not a good life lesson.

You're a mother not a martyr.

You shouldn't be expected to remove someone you presumably have strong feelings for (who by all accounts has been understanding and kind wrt your DD) from your life.

In truth when she's older and more mature I'll bet she looks back on her behaviour with regret.

In you're position I'd be inclined to sit her down and simply say that you're not putting up with her antics any more.

I'm not suggesting he moves in, but I think you need a zero tolerance on her rudeness and her being able to force your boyfriend to leave because she demands it.

I think because you allow her so much control in this regard she's never going to come to terms with you having a boyfriend because of course for her the best in her eyes is to have Mum to herself and all you've taught her is that what she wants goes - so of course she's going to push for all she can get and carry on as she has been doing.

What she doesn't appreciate is that having a happy, well supported, well loved Mum is the thing that's in her best interests.

Couldn’t have put it better myself

Notcoolmum Four years between my ex moving out and me meeting my bf. Then another six months before they were introduced. No boyfriends in the interim (or at least no-one she was introduced to).