DD and boyfriend -- has anyone ever successfully got past this?

[thepeopleversuswork]

Please be gentle with me on this: I know its a contentious subject and lots of you will say I shouldn't be dating at all, but its causing me a lot of heartache at the moment.

Have been with my boyfriend for two years. We don't live together. I have a 9 year old DD. When I first met him I was very clear that we had to take things very slowly -- she didn't meet him for six months etc and moving in was not on the horizon any time in the short to medium term. For about the next six months he stayed at mine once a week. After about a year I slowly started to increase this so he was staying two nights a week. Then lockdown happened and we didn't see each other for nearly four months. We slowly started seeing one another in the summer.

DD's dad is under an injunction due to previous DV so she can't stay at his: the only time I get time away from her is with sleepovers etc, which obviously isn't allowed at the moment. And this, combined with lockdown, means the only way I can see him at the moment is if he comes to my house.

DD has become marginally more tolerant of my bf over time but basically she would rather he wasn't around. She is adamant that she doesn't want my bf staying at mine. After lockdown ended and when I first started seeing him again I anticipated this and told him he couldn't stay more than one night a week and would need to leave early in the mornings. He's been very accepting of this. He has generally been incredibly patient about everything.

DD is still very unhappy about him being in my life at all. She's had outbursts at him within minutes of his arriving and asked him to leave the house and he's always gone along with this. I've talked to her about it and she basically says she wants him to go away and doesn't want to share me with him. I asked her if she could ever imagine a scenario where he lived with us and she said no.

I've done some soul searching to think if there is anything he has done which could have upset or frightened her and there genuinely has been nothing. I've been incredibly careful about making sure she and I have plenty of quality time together on our own, he's rarely here for long during daylight hours and so forth. She obviously would prefer if I was back with her dad, but we have been separated since she was just four, so it isn't a new scenario.

I'm really agonising over how to deal with this now. When we first got together I anticipated that if I took things slowly and if he was patient with her she would eventually start to come around to him and she is still, two years in, pretty hostile to him. It's so difficult because he's incredibly patient and respectful and she is frankly horrible to him. He's still very kind and accepting of it but I can't help thinking eventually he will run out of patience.

The bottom line is that she comes first and if push comes to shove I would and will drop him for her, absolutely no question. But I feel like if she can't accept someone who is so obviously supportive of her and loves me, she may never accept anyone else. Maybe the reality is I have to make peace with the fact that I won't be able to have a relationship with someone until she has moved out.

I'm just curious to know if anyone else has been through something similar and got past it, how long it took and generally if anyone has any advice?

I know it's tricky, but this caught my eye
She's had outbursts at him within minutes of his arriving and asked him to leave the house and he's always gone along with this.

I am sorry, but as much as I love my kid, a 9 year old will never tell anyone I invite to leave. (unless they give them reason to eg come in, slap them, so something outrageous)

You got lucky with DeRigeurMortis's early and excellent response, OP.

A couple of things - I don't think anybody is suggesting that you cut your daughter's father out of her life completely. And if you did, I think there's a good chance that she'd start to idolize him. And resent you for stopping her from seeing this amazing man. But she can see and hear his rudeness towards you and your boyfriend. Don't teach her that friends behave like that. That's really not a lesson she needs to learn.

You are a person in your own right. She probably will not have realised this yet. Your relationship with your boyfriend affects your daughter, but is separate to her. Her bedroom is her sanctuary. The house, she shares with you (for the duration of her childhood) and it needs to serve both your needs.

Is there any other family who could give her an opportunity to discuss what's going on with her dad? He is probably telling her all sorts of nonsense and making her promise not to discuss it with you. She must be so confused.

She's had outbursts at him within minutes of his arriving and asked him to leave the house and he's always gone along with this.

Can I ask what you're doing while this is going on?

If I was him, I'd be questioning (in my mind) who's in charge here and ruling the roost.

Children at 9 years old know wrong from right...make no mistake about it. Of course her dad's manipulation is relevant, but you can't live your life being dictated by him via your DD.

Tell her that next time he comes over, she is not allowed to scream and shout telling him to leave and she'll be sent to her bedroom if she does.

Whilst she doesn't have to like him, being rude isn't an option anymore.

@DeRigueurMortis

Ok I'm going to put my steel pants on for this one.....

Imho you've handled the situation appropriately apart from one aspect and that's putting up with your DD's behaviour for so long.

Her being rude to him within minutes of him being in the house is unacceptable.

You're teaching her that she can use your love for her to manipulate you and bend you to her will. That's not a good life lesson.

You're a mother not a martyr.

You shouldn't be expected to remove someone you presumably have strong feelings for (who by all accounts has been understanding and kind wrt your DD) from your life.

In truth when she's older and more mature I'll bet she looks back on her behaviour with regret.

In you're position I'd be inclined to sit her down and simply say that you're not putting up with her antics any more.

I'm not suggesting he moves in, but I think you need a zero tolerance on her rudeness and her being able to force your boyfriend to leave because she demands it.

I think because you allow her so much control in this regard she's never going to come to terms with you having a boyfriend because of course for her the best in her eyes is to have Mum to herself and all you've taught her is that what she wants goes - so of course she's going to push for all she can get and carry on as she has been doing.

What she doesn't appreciate is that having a happy, well supported, well loved Mum is the thing that's in her best interests.

I agree. Only your entitled to a life and to move on with your boyfriend. Who and why doesn't like it needs to learn a steep learning curve the world doesn't revolve around them. Respectfully so. Accepting your choices is not up to a 9yr old. Decent men are few and far between

RandomMess

Thanks. The counsellor is aware of the background with her dad and my boyfriend, though obviously the discussion is confidential. My DD is feeding some of it back to me and is quite open about what she talks about. She's only had two sessions so far.

One of the things I've struggled with is how much detail to provide about the abuse in my marriage. I increasingly want her to be aware that I didn't leave her dad just for shits and giggles and that I did so in part to improve her life. But I don't want to badmouth him, or to scare her.

@SBTLove

I think you’ve tip toed around her so much that she thinks she’s the boss, her behaviour is ridiculous; demanding he leaves the house and you both go along with it!!! You’ve created a tyrant, you’re a parent not a slave to ever demands. Time for some rules and boundaries, if you let this go on at 9, good luck when’s she’s 12/13!

This with knobs on. Speaking from personal experience.

mytimeonline

I have been very clear when these outbursts happen that they are not acceptable and have talked to her about it when he isn't here.

Respectfully though, on your point about decent men being few and far between... that may be true but this can't be a driver of what I do and I can't get myself in a position where I'm doing the "hang onto a man at all costs" thing. I think that's a bad place to be in.

Independence is a very important thing to teach, but you seem to be so hell bent on teaching her that women can stand up on their own, that you may be neglecting the need for you to model a healthy relationship and partnership for her.

Yes, teach her that women can and should be independent, but dont be afraid of showing her how a real adult partnership can be a great thing, and how a loving relationship is an addition to life and not a thing which steals her independence.

You shouldn't be talking to her about it after he has left; she's already got her way by then. You need to be telling her firmly that no, he will not be leaving and she can either be polite to him or she gets sent to her room.

You come across as a little bit "woo". We all raise our kids to be independent and to speak up for themselves, but that's not all. We also want them to understand how partnerships and family work, teach them how to work as a team with someone, as a unit.
You're allowing her to rule everything and applauding her independence and showing her that you dont need a man... but you're going about it in a way which is building her up into a spoilt, stubborn, rude child and she will be a nightmare if that continues.

You can teach her independence and strength whilst also being firm with boundaries and her position in the house; which is the child, not the ruler.

Age appropriate truth is not bad mouthing.

Have you asked her why she thinks you left him/what she thinks happened and why she thinks that... hopefully if you ask in a light way she will spill her guts and I suspect your ex has fed her more lies.

The truth is Daddy hurt you and he isn't allowed to that, if he's lied to her about it asks her why you think he's lied?

Whilst seeing a counsellor is probably the best time to tackle this as there is someone else to help her think about who is the better behaved/kindest - who is most trustworthy and so on.

At the end of the day your ex isn't a good Dad and she needs her eyes opened enough that she works it out for herself.

A lot of it is just asking her questions about what she thinks/how she feels about what ex has said and done. Absolutely tell her straight when she has been fed a lie but lots of "hmm" and "oh" to confirm you are listening as she works through her confusion.

That book I recommended is superb and practical and based on LOTS of research!

WhereverIGoddamnLike

"Independence is a very important thing to teach, but you seem to be so hell bent on teaching her that women can stand up on their own, that you may be neglecting the need for you to model a healthy relationship and partnership for her."

I know what you mean. But I would slightly take issue with that: I do believe fundamentally that the need for a woman to be financially and emotionally independent trumps the need to model a healthy relationship and partnership. Some men are wonderful and are a massively positive addition to a family but frankly many are not, and I think women and children often do better alone than they do with men.

I think there is potential for men to be additive to their lives but its by no means a given and the relationship needs to demonstrate significant value add to be worth disrupting the lives of the woman and child. Putting the needs of the "partnership" ahead of the needs of the woman and child as a default unless you're absolutely certain its the right partnership can be a slippery slope.

WhereverIGoddamnLike

I'm really not woo. I'm about as un-woo as you can imagine. But I am a feminist and I think men need to earn their right to be in a family.

But he seems like he has earned his right. From what you say, he has been understand and respectful and hasnt pushed for anything or pitted you against her or made you do anything you're uncomfortable with.
You want him there overnight. He seems to have "earned" his place beside you. But you're still not willing to show her that that is valuable. That a good man, who has been respectful and kind and worked hard to be with you, isnt worth trying to make it work because her rudeness is more important and he needs to leave when she behaves in a very poor way.

Do you see what's wrong with that?

Do you listen in to her conversations with her Dad? I'm wondering if he's still commenting on you and your BF more than you realise during the conversations. Could you get some family therapy to explore the relationship between the two of you and her reaction to your BF?

I'd also keep talking to her about her fears, it may be that she thinks if she is OK with him being around/staying over that he'll move in and she's anxious about that. Or that her Dad will be cross with her or she is being disloyal in some way. I have a similar issue with DS and his Dad with my DP (although not as bad).

For us, lots of talking has helped and I try and emphasise the positives that DP brings to both our lives (without going over the top about it) and have compared it to DS having his friends. In your situation it also sounds like it's worth a slightly more honest conversation about her Dad - I know it's tricky to tread the fine line between honesty and bad mouthing. It's so hard, I massively feel for you but you are allowed to have a relationship and your BF sounds like he's being very patient and kind.

You've allowed her to turn into a very rude child, who thinks she can make unreasonable demands and get away with it. Whether her behaviour was over your man, your friend, getting a new pet... whatever. Her behaviour shouldn't be allowed to stand, but you're putting it under a banner of "being independent" rather then admitting she is being a bit of a brat.

This man hasnt done anything to earn this treatment, and he seems to be handling it well and allowing her all the space she needs. But the time has come for you to push back against her, of course reassure that if anything ever happens to make her uncomfortable then she will be heard but that she cannot treat people the way she has been.

Teach her to he a strong woman, but also remind her that she is the child and you get to make these choices as long as you have first made sure they are not a danger to her and you've given her time to get used to it. It's ok to be firm.

I do believe fundamentally that the need for a woman to be financially and emotionally independent trumps the need to model a healthy relationship and partnership

I don't agree with that, the best thing you can do is model healthy relationships and partnerships. She isn't going to refuse to have relationships because you had a bad one first time out, once the hormones hit she'll do what you did (hopefully with a different type of person) and be besotted and fall in love and do all kinds of things she didn't think she would before. That's why it is incredibly important to model healthy relationships if you want your children to have them- where love, everyone's views important, good values, and yes, financial inter-dependence are fair and equitable.

I have always been financially independent (as in had my own career) and that's really important to give you choices about relationships, but it doesn't (IMO) outweigh modelling healthy relationships. You can also have both so I'm not sure what the choice is there- healthy relationships do often involve entwined finances even if you both earn, through joint mortgages, deciding what to spend money on, support through maternity, joint goals and so on. I don't see it as weak to acknowledge this.

If your best friend visited you and your daughter had an outburst, was rude to your friend and got them to leave, what would you do?
You would not be scratching your head and tip toeing round your daughter. You would be telling her it's unacceptable. Full stop.

The more control you allow your daughter to have over you, then the more out of control and unsafe she may actually feel. Children need to know the adults are in control to make them feel safe.

when I say control I don't mean strict or stern. Just that you've got it. Mums got the situation in hand. Mums in control so daughter can relax and be a 9 year old.

If she never sees what a happy, healthy relationship is then she will struggle to have one compared with people who have grown up around it.
I'm a single mum, so I have this worry everyday but it is true. She will be a more rounded person if she can see that a loving relationship is not a weakness, and does not mean you have given up your independence and strength. It's quite a... challenging view that you seem to hold and may hold you back from what you want, which is ironic when we're talking about women knowing their own mind, making their own choices and being strong.
You can do all that by having the relationship you have chosen, and supporting her and listening to her but also telling her that this is how it is (in a more child friendly way).

@HaggisBurger

I think inadvertently and understandably to make your DD your priority you ve given her way too much power in this situation. Which is actually quite scary for a child. (No matter how much they seem to suggest otherwise). The most anxious 17 year old I know was an only child who ran every single decision in her home, from where she slept, to when and if her parents went out etc etc.

Firmly stating some boundaries around her behaviour and how guests to your home are treated will serve her much much better in life. You’re a kind and caring mother but also you deserve some happiness too.

I broadly agree with this.

I was the daughter in this situation (eldest of 3) and I was not happy about my mum being in a new relationship. Mum dealt with it similarly to you, very understanding, he would come over after we were in bed and we didnt spend time as a group really. Later Mum told me she had always made it clear that we had a Dad and his relationship to her was something separate. I was probably fairly sullen with him but he certainly wouldnt have left the house because I was stroppy! Calm but firm is the key. They are still together and very happy.

Having said all that we did at least have eow with Dad so they got some time together. It must be really hard for you not having that.

What was the incident that caused the injunction and how long ago was that?

You say you've searched for reasons about your DD attitude towards your bf but I don't see where you've asked her.

Have you asked her what it is she doesn't like about him?
I would start there.

I have been very clear when these outbursts happen that they are not acceptable and have talked to her about it when he isn't here.

But she still gets to demand he leaves and does it again the next time, so your words clearly have no impact.

You need to step in if she does it and say he's not leaving. Otherwise, she's got her way...or her dad's way.

With regards to talking about her dad, you need to tread carefully. Perhaps individual therapy would help with guidance on how to communicate this to her, in an age appropriate way without causing long lasting damage.

I definitely would not advise you to do it without some professional guidance.

But I am a feminist and I think men need to earn their right to be in a family.

What exactly do you mean by this?
Because as a feminist you should be all for equality....do you also believe a woman needs to earn the right to be in a family as well?

If so, what would earning their right look like to you? Tolerating a rude child?

Your daughter is getting her attitude and behaviour from you. Maybe try to relax and not be so black and white about things.

OP, I am very sorry about your ex-husband and I can certainly understand your wish for him to evaporate. My wife's ex was always in our lives as he was father to our two eldest boys and my wife would never have denied him access to them.
There were many times she wished he would make the break and go away but he was good to his sons even if a destabilising influence on our relationship.
My wife too suffered DV at his hands but tried to hide it from the boys as she didn't want to influence their opinion of him. However his life after their split was such a mess, 4 more marriages and 4 more divorces along with a house fire in which his daughter to wife 2 was badly burnt meant that the boys were exposed to situations and trauma they should never have had to deal with.
At one point I was offered a very good job in New Zealand which we had to refuse but now I wish we had just packed up our family and gone.
While you are trying to do the right thing it may end up that your ex-husband is too much of bad influence on you DD, encouraging her to steal, and that maybe a sharp break from him is what would be best in the long run.
At the very least YOU should stop dealing with him and I would suggest that someone else deals with him handing over your DD perhaps your father or some other male family member.
I wish you luck in the future and that your DD can come to terms with you having a bf, especially one as patient as the man you are seeing atm.