Rages/smashing things but not physically hurting you

[Friedbanana]

Hello, just wanting some advice/ pointers to where i can read about this as i’m not sure where to search to find info. Basically DP gets very frustrated/angry very easily, at basically the slightest disagreement, and i try to give him space and leave to go to another room and then he cools off, but if for some reason he follows me or i follow him, or i just continue the discussion calmly because i dont realise he’s bubbling, then he will suddenly, without warning, throw something really violently- in the past he’s smashed a kettle into the wall (right next to me) and broken a kitchen tile (and the kettle), he’s thrown chairs at bins amd broken both, he’ll kick things (breaking his sandles) and slam doors very forcefully. It used to sometimes send me into a panic attack as sometimes it would be really close to me and really scare me. The worst rage was when i was sat at the top of the stairs and he ran along the corridor as if he was going to push me doenstairs but he didnt, but i genuinely thought he was going to. He said later he would absolutely never hurt me, and if i thought he had the capability of hurting me i should leave. i don’t think he would either, but it really does hurt me mentally. Anyway today i confronted him and said he needs to sort it out as it makes me v anxious, and he needs to sort it out before we try for children, as I can’t bring them up with that around them, particuarly as the triggers will be a million times worse when there’s a baby. He says he tried his best to control it, and for the first time in 8 years or our relationship he told me thats how his father was around him- terrible rages and smashing things when he or his sister did anything the tiniest bit wrong. he never physically abused them. He doesnt feel loved by either of his parents even though we do see them each fortnight id say (before lockdown) and it’s very sad. So anyway just wanting some advice really on how to support him. I love him very very much and wouldnt leave him, i think he’d make a fantastic dad apart from this issue. He also suffers with depression and social anxiety but sadly refuses any professional help. Thanks so much for reading!!

Hi OP. First of all, it's good you're taking about this situation. Keep talking, don't hide it.

The major thing that jumps out at me is the phrase 'losing control' because it's an excuse. You have a list of close misses to show us how he doesn't hurt you. But all those acts of violence were him CHOOSING to almost hurt you. He weighed up the moment, he made a decision, and he thought to himself "Now, I give myself permission to throw the kettle in this spot so that she is very frightened but will not be physically hurt."

Every time. He made a decision. He gave himself permission to act that way. Now, that isn't losing control, is it? But when he gives himself permission to "lose control" with a child, the child won't be able to make all the excuses for him that you do. It will scar your child very deeply. And since children are unpredictable it may physically scar them too. One step in the wrong direction at the wrong time when a kettle is flying...

And since he has identified for you the source of why he thinks he acts like that (his childhood), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to spend time working to overcome this behaviour.

Remember, every time he does it he chooses to do it. He knows how you feel, and he does it anyway.

Since you have grown up in an abusive household it makes sense that you have accepted another abusive relationship as an adult. From what you have said it doesn't sound as if you are ready to accept that is what's happening, but please do read up on the subject and avoid falling pregnant, even if he pressures you to do so.

OP, read Lundy Bancroft. He will tell you this:

Throwing things and smashing things is violence. It is designed to intimidate and it works.

It will not stop if you stop raising your voice, because the next time it happens it will be something else you did that set him off.

Violent outbursts are a method of control, because if you’re too shit scared to challenge him or voice your opinion then that means a nice easy life for him. He can do as he pleases with no consequences. It has massive benefits to him, and that’s why he does it.

He can control his outbursts, he just chooses not to. He has already admitted to you that he does it to make the argument stop. he has already admitted he does it to control you.

You cannot control what he does. You can be as quiet as a mouse and do everyting he says, but as he is in control of when he kicks off and why, he is in control.

This is so worrying OP, but like you already know, you arent’ ready to see it yet. 100 of us will never convince you until you realise it for yourself. Read the books, they are really good, I’ve read them several times. OP this man is no different to the men in those books. You might not see it, or you might not want to see it, but it’s all exactly the same, he’s admitted it to you already. Many of us have been where you are, myself included, that’s why we’re saying the things we’re saying. You will see it for yourself in time, I just hope it’s sooner rather than later, and that you don’t get hurt first.

Does he do this in public? Does he do this to his work colleagues or friends?

No, of course he doesn't, because he knows it's completely unacceptable. But he chooses to do it to you, when there's nobody else around.

"Losing control" is not the applicable concept here. If he can manage not to do it in public or to the other people in his life, then he can manage not to do it to you. He is 100% CHOOSING to behave like this to you... because he thinks he can and it will intimidate you into behaving the way he wants.

When was the last time he threw stuff around violently in front of someone he respected, someone he didn't think was weaker than him? That would be never, wouldn't it?

I wonder if he has PTSD. I briefly had a relationship with a man who was completely unable to cope with women expressing anger (or annoyance). Hearing a raised female voice triggered him right back to his trauma. I felt sorry for him but essentially he was really fucked up and I would not recommend a relationship with someone with those issues
I agree.
I hope what I say doesn’t come across wrong, I am no way minimising domestic abuse or suggesting women stay in abusive relationships.

But imo, domestic violence is often the result of trauma, the abused becomes the abuser.
If he can truly acknowledge and understand just how abnormal his upbringing was and if he is willing and able to put the work in to heal and change maybe he will change but I think it’s really important to be mindful that the majority of abusive men do not change.

You cannot save him.

He can only save himself.

I think a lot of people think that with enough love and understand they can fix troubled individuals, but they can’t and you need to be mindful that this kind of behaviour often does escalate, sometimes with fatal consequences.

I would think extremely carefully before having children with this man

I'm glad you've talked to him op.

Whilst I stand by my previous two posts (about him being no good) , I do wish you the best.

Please come back to this thread , or make another , if things don't improve.

Well done for standing up to him a little OP.

We had a really good discussion earlier where he agreed his behaviour is totally not acceptable and he wasn’t actually dismissive of professional help. He said he’s going to research more about his problems and then possibly seek out help.

This isn't enough. The power shouldn't be in his hands 'oh I'll think about it'- but yours, 'you either stop doing this or it's the end.' Have you put it in so many words?

Most therapeutic interventions don't help with abusive and controlling men, because their behaviour is rooted in beliefs of ownership and entitlement that they have to change. 'Normal' therapy can just help them justify themselves. They need to stop thinking about themselves and think about the impact of their behaviour on other people.

The Freedom Programme have a programme for men. He could do their online course. www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/index.php

He might find this video about the aspect of abusive men known as The Bully helpful

My father was like that. Huge rages, shouting, getting in your face. Certain things triggered him and he could not contain his rage. Then when it was all over he kind of expected everyone to have forgotten. I was often crushed with embarrassment as a child. We got struck off from the GP’s, police would get called out ( on one memorable occasion at a horse riding centre), etc etc. All his siblings had issues, to put it mildly. Something must have been very dysfunctional in their upbringing, but they’d all close ranks and not criticise their parents. I really believe that me, my brother and our cousins have suffered from our parents’ behaviours. I can’t really say I wish my mum had left him as I wouldn’t be here. But for her sake, yes I wish she’d left him or even never got together with him. Don’t stay with this guy unless he really goes to work changing this behaviour, and I don’t believe that can happen without a real commitment to therapy.

Well I hope he does seek help. I am worried at him telling you not to raise your voice...almost suggesting you not being able to control yourself is the cause of his explosions. So if your passive when he is losing it he wont escalate thus leaving you responsible for his ourbursts. It isnt abnormal to raise ones voice in frustration however it is abnormal to react by smashing things . It does not bode well for the future....you will continue to normalise this and when DC are brought into the mix you will all be huddling as daddy is having a turn...

My father was similar and I've been left disabled and unable to work with lifelong problems with anxiety etc. This is the future your potential child faces. That or becoming an abuser themselves.

My mum did leave him, but not until I was about 18 and my sister 16. It was too late then though, the damage was done.

You sound like a lovely intelligent woman, but please rethink.
I have had plenty of good relationships(married for years now) and none of them have included any level of violence (other problems obviously!)
No level of abuse/violence is OK. He has repeatedly been violent and scared you and doesn't really care until you threaten to leave. Even now he is only 'thinking' about getting help.
He is not a good one- you will find better.
Even if he's on his best behaviour for a while, years perhaps, it is a well known fact that men like this become violent when the woman is pregnant. He will wait till he feels his position is safer and you are 'trapped'. Seen it so many times on here.
You can definitely find a better man than this.

@Isthisit22

You sound like a lovely intelligent woman, but please rethink. I have had plenty of good relationships(married for years now) and none of them have included any level of violence (other problems obviously!) No level of abuse/violence is OK. He has repeatedly been violent and scared you and doesn't really care until you threaten to leave. Even now he is only 'thinking' about getting help. He is not a good one- you will find better. Even if he's on his best behaviour for a while, years perhaps, it is a well known fact that men like this become violent when the woman is pregnant. He will wait till he feels his position is safer and you are 'trapped'. Seen it so many times on here. You can definitely find a better man than this.

All of this.

Him telling you not to raise your voice is so troubling.

It is not a woman's job to regulate a man's behaviour.

@Friedbanana

definitely not engineered coincidence! i don't want children for about another 5 years (im currently 27) so it’s not like i want to ttc right away, i know he needs to sort himself out before we do so please stop calling me irresponsible etc. i perhaps dont have the best view of relationships as my dad was apparently an abusive alcoholic and so is my stepdad but not so abusive. my partner doesn’t really have strong connections with friends, he has a few friends he’ll do exercise with but he’s quite antisocial really, so there’s no one else he could get enraged with.

How about at work?

And you're right, you don't have the best view of relationships.

You both (separately) need to speak to someone and get this sorted.

Do everthing in your power not to upset him, annoy him, antagonise him.
Do everthing he wants, be a fantastic submissive wife.
Never question him.
Praise him at every opportunity, expext nothing back.

If you do all this he will have no need to be angry, rant, rage and threaten.

You are being controlled.
You may not believe it or understand it but he knows exactly what he is doing.

The tricky bit comes when you understand what hes doing to you.
It becomes worse.
Run and don,t look back your living with a narcissist.

He also said I need to make sure I never escalate it by raising my voice

Oh God that's really bad :( He will absolutely blame you in future for his behaviour. If he's come this far and is still slipping in things like the above statement, I'm confident of it. If I felt I could not be relied upon to act in a sensible way around a partner, a female partner in particular, I would ask for a break and check myself into intensive therapy tomorrow. It should never have escalated this far.

Think about this - he knows he's wrong but he did it anyway. Why do you think this is? Why do you think he doesn't do this to his boss?

You are disconnected from your self-worth, your pride and because of that you're not angry enough about the way he's treating you. You might think you are, but I bet it's a mixture of being upset, confusion, anxiety and frustration. If you were truly angry and therefore appalled, it would galvanize you into action.

Please realise that you have got used to being treated appallingly, and that is very dangerous indeed. You won't see danger when it's coming because you are getting used to more and more over time.

What on earth would you think if you started dating someone and in the first month they charged at you so that you thought you were going to be thrown down the stairs? I'm guessing you would end it and block him on everything, and possibly report him to the police. THAT is a normal reaction, the way that most women would rightly respond before their boundries were ground down. They certainly wouldn't contemplate having children with such a man. You're 27. It's not too late to start over.

Oh, and since it's already this bad, expect it to escalate sexually too. Please don't think you're safe from that.

My friend married one of these. In fact she could have written your post, before she had kids and married him. It all matches up, down to his loveless upbringing and the fact that there had been 2-3 ‘isolated’ violent outbursts, directed at objects. They discussed it and he promised to get help (never got round to it though). She thought he would make an excellent father, well, he didn’t. He’s just passing on the same cold, angry disciplinarian traits his own parents showed him. She knows her children have noticed that friends’ dads are not like this, which is so sad.
I would also say don’t have children with this man but it seems you aren’t open to leaving him. I think it sounds terrifying and will only get worse for you. He must have professional help.

and he wasn’t actually dismissive of professional help. He said he’s going to research more about his problems and then possibly seek out help

This isn't as good as you think it is. He hasn't acknowledged he has a serious problem that he knows he needs help with. How can he not see that? To be honest it sounds like he is fobbing you off, he knows you will accept very little from him to stay, vague statements to possibly seek help in some unspecified future. My Ex said he would seek help but never did. Yours hasn't even said he will do that. If I am honest I think you have reaffirmed to him that you will stay without him needing to work on himself.

I mean, why does he need to research first before 'possibly' seeking help. Does he really think he when he researches he will realise he does not need help?

OP if you do decide to wait for him to seek help, go into it with open eyes and set limits that you keep to. GIve him to Friday to make an appointment with a GP. He needs to know you will leave at the end of the week if you don't. He needs to know you ar e serious.

Be aware that waiting lists are long. I have a friend who has waited 18 months for a appointment with a psychologist.

He will have to be assessed. Be accepted for support (not a given that he will be), for your area to have suitable support, to wait for that support, to have a therapist he builds a relationship with and can work with (MH treatment is tricky like that, a good surgeon can fix anyones' knee, MH support relies on the patient and professional hitting it off and developing a good therapeutic relationship), and then for him to commit to the hard work of the therapy and for that to work for him. And if it does work for him to maintain that under the pressure of kids.
That's a lot of conditionals that all need to come together. You need to clearly decide what will make you quit. Do you want to wait for two years for him to have an appointment to see if the therapy may work? How and when will you decide if it has - how many years do you wait to see if there is another outburst. What are your success and fail criterias for all this? Is it worth the risk of you wasting your time to find and have kids with someone else if it does not work.

Because at the moment you are gambling a lot on a guy who has made no commitments to you to work to make deep and difficult changes in himself.

I will leave him if he cant sort himself out, and I won’t have children with him. He knows that now so I’m positive things can change

I don't think he does know that. Nothing in your update suggests he knows that you will leave. He hasn't said, 'I know my behaviour is unacceptable and I am phoning the GP tomorrow to seek help.'

He has said ' I know my behaviour is unacceptable. I think I'll do a bit of reading and then I may seek help.'

Does that sound like someone who understands the seriousness of his situation and is committed to work hard to change? Or does that sound like someone pushing things into the long grass? He does not need to 'research' before seeking a GP. That is a delaying tactic. He can phone the GP and still do research after he's made the call.

I'm sorry, but this is just like the 'progress' from not charging at you on the top of the stairs to just throwing things around a room instead. Whether consciously or unconsciously, he's finding your tolerance level that he can operate in without needing to actually change. This is him continuing his existing pattern, not him changing it.

Look what you are excited about OP. You are excited and hopeful at a man NOT committing to seek help.

and I assure you I wouldn’t let my child stay in an environment where they could come to any mental or physical harm! That would 100% be my main priority.

You wrongly assume that you would have a choice in the matter. If you were to split up, you would be at the mercy of what the courts decide, with a 50 / 50 split being the starting position. The father being abusive does not necessarily stop a judge awarding contact time to him, you see that on these boards every week. It's not as simple as just getting out at the first sign of abuse (as if that were simple anyway).

Absolutely what GCAcademic says. So many of us regret and have guilt at the man who is our childrens' father.

How will you know he has become the man you wish he was? What criteria are you using to judge this? Having children is likely to 'trigger' him into repeating the patterns he learnt as a child (and very may well have a genetic tendency to as PP said). How can you be sure he won't repeat that? Once you have children - he is in their life forever.

And why do you think a man who, as I say, hasn't even committed to seek help to change, has either the motivation or capability to make these enormous changes?

As pps have said: what a non committal, half assed response from him. He knows you aren't going anywhere.

He has also confirmed to you he chooses to do it 'to end arguments' (or rather, dominate you when you dare to speak up).

I wonder what his next move might be. I suspect you may start to see passive aggressive behaviour from him, for daring to call him out on his behaviour. So for example he may start to criticise you or pick constant, grating arguments. Either that or he will really start pretending to be on his best behaviour for a while - but you may find that he starts bringing up the idea of having kids soon because you have now set having them as the challenge (whereby once achieved, he will know he has convinced you to trust him).

I’m sorry you are in this situation OP.

Your friend may be searching for what she thinks you have in her own relationship, but if she had the full package she may well change her mind. I remember well what it feels like to be with a violent, angry bull in a china shop. Locked in not knowing how bad it would be this time. When he tried to kill me eventually I left. Should have gone the first time.

I think you have to leave before he either deliberately or accidentally lashes out. I know someone who hit someone else one time but the way the person fell they banged their head and died. It was an accident. The perpetrator did 12 years in prison. For one hit. That went horribly wrong.

Do not follow this man if he walks away from you during an argument. Let him go.

He will ‘think’ about seeking help means he will not seek help. He has no intention of changing. He doesn’t care how you feel he only cares how he feels. In control. Powerful. As you are still there you are accepting this. Somehow it’s ok to be like this as his dad was. I never understand that but it’s a common thread apparently.

If you want to still date this man he needs to move out (or you do) and he needs to get help with controlling himself.

Do not have sex with this man as no form of contraception is 100% and you can’t have kids around him as they will grow up the same, as he did with his dad, that is if he doesn’t accidentally push one down the stairs in a fit of rage or something.

Sorry OP. The truth is hard to hear. You’re just used to him and you think you can handle it. It’s become normalised. It’s not. Sorry. Leave him.

There's no fate or coincidences or "meant to be", op - doesn't exist.

And if notions like that cause you to stay in an abusive relationship (and this is abusive, unequivocally it is) they're actually dangerous.

Men like this don't change - he enjoys the feeling of power, he enjoys intimidating .. do you not realise that. He's not going to stop something he enjoys and that gets him power in his household & relationship.

You weren't allowed to raise your voice but he gets to smash things, run at you, throw things? Clearly he likes a nice fair, even dynamic in his relationship. .

He's text book non contact abuser (and even they often become contact). Do yourself a favour and read Lundy Bancroft's book (free)

www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that-pdf

It's a values problem, not an anger management problem.

His values are that he should be in power in his household, he should be pandered to, and that he'll.use whatever means works to achieve that .. in this case intimidation

His values are also that he should get to indulge his temper, anger and aggression in his home/relationship .. and he should be indulged in that.

Even if he goes for extensive counselling, he probably won't change. And he's not even committed firmly to do that.

I'd bet a tidy amount of money he won't stop and he won't change. In fact I'd bet it that he'll get worse

While you're waiting for him to change (which he most likely won't) you're wasting time not meeting someone else you could have kids with. You're frittering away your fertility, you're frittering away chances to meet another partner.

Oh and for the record, men like this always Blame their childhood. Always. They know it gets them sympathy and amateur psychology attempts.

Thing is - if your childhood and youth was affected negatively by an aggressive, shouty father (or parents) and you know how it feels to be around that or on the receiving end of it ... Would you do it to people you're supposed to love?!!

I'm sure he considers himself an intelligent, strkong willed man - but he has no choice in copying his parents' shit behaviour??

It's an excuse.

And it's a common one, they all trot out the same ol shit.

I'd also add, in terms of his likelihood of getting worse, having a baby, toddler etc is a source of intense stress for both parents and tests the most horizontally chilled people. I really dread to think what it would be like with him