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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Husband attacked teenage son

440 replies

Throwawaynameforthis · 27/10/2020 13:58

On Saturday night my husband pinned DS to the floor.

We were playing a family game and DS (14) was being annoying, escalating to rudeness. He accused me of “smacking him” which I absolutely did not do.

I took myself out of the room for a minute and the next thing I hear is H yelling, DD15 shouting at H to stop and DD9 sobbing.

As I walk into room DS is legging it out the house looking terrified, quickly followed by DD. From what I can work out H picked DS up by then lapels and got him on floor and was telling him he’d “show him what a smack is”.

I found DS quickly and then DD and went home. H apologised to the DC but I’m so angry. I don’t know what to do. This has been escalating for months.

Is this it? Is there any recovering from this? For me or the DC?

OP posts:
Meuniere · 27/10/2020 19:00

[quote Throwawaynameforthis]@Lougle

Also, your example of him saying "I've already done it twice today" is not hyperbole or being 'absurd', it is lying. I get that teens can use hyperbole and can exaggerate, but lying shouldn't be excused as 'just not telling the truth

I didn’t make myself clear - My comments re hyperbole were relating to his saying things like “I’m the only one who does anything in this house”. Hi then bites and argues about who dies what.

My approach is to tell him he’s being ridiculous, and get him to do whatever he’s been asked to do.[/quote]
Except it doesn’t work because
1- you still have to ask him
2- he is still arguing to not do it
3- he still thinks using hyperbole and lies is ok.

Sorry but I woiuldnt accept any of that from my teens (15 and 17yo).

riotlady · 27/10/2020 19:05

Something very similar happened with me and my stepdad (although I wasn’t being such a windup as your son lol). We have pretty much recovered from it- he never did anything like it again, we still spend time together and he’s an excellent grandad.

But I will never feel 100% safe with him again, the way I did as a child. It makes me really sad to think about that incident and it added to a broader mistrust of men that I’ve developed over the years. It’s just always in the back of my mind that even kind men who love you can snap and hurt you.

I think I would push the counselling. Honestly I think most teenagers would benefit from a bit of counselling because being a teenager is really hard in pretty much any circumstances.

LeopardPrintKnickers · 27/10/2020 19:08

OP, how are things now?

DandyMandy · 27/10/2020 19:09

Therapy seems like the best option. Your son sounds like a nightmare and he and your husband both need to learn to control their tempers. I feel for you and your girls. I'm sure this whole thing is very confusing and one of those things where you absolutely don't know what to do. The boy needs boundaries, but you already know that. I'm sorry you're being blamed for everything. Best of luck.

Venicelover · 27/10/2020 19:15

@Whatabambam

OP, I think you handled the situation really well. It sounds like it was an exceptional loss of control from your DH and it made your DS retreat and reflect. The fact that there is open communication between them again shows that they still have a good relationship. You showed support and love for your son so he knows that this is unconditional.

I have been in the exact same situation with you. It was awful to witness and had to be handled sensitively afterwards. My son was being an absolute bellend throwing chocolate cookies around in a strop.

Sometimes they need to know who is in charge and that their behaviour is unacceptable. Your son would likely get a lot worse treatment for the same behaviour if he tried to behave like this outside of the family. He now knows it is unacceptable inside the family too.

I would imagine that your DH may benefit from some help in understanding your son's teenage grottiness and how he can de-escalate things from developing again to this flashpoint.

This exactly. It was a struggle between them to be the Alpha Male and DS needs to appreciate that being a disrespectful idiot is unacceptable. It is typical male teen behaviour and it can be very trying. Your husband is not an 'abuser' he simply lost his temper after provocation, which he shouldn't have done.

If an apology has been given and accepted by (both sides) and lessons have been learned then move past it.

unlikelytobe · 27/10/2020 19:15

There is no point in screaming LTB and blasting a family apart before help has been sought and conversations have been had. Life is just more nuanced than that.

One of the more sensible comments on this thread! Of course, the other important context is your relationship with your DH and if this is the last straw or just something you're really angry about at the moment. He's seeking help and has apologised. How do your DC seem about it all now?

Ashard20 · 27/10/2020 19:15

@Throwawaynameforthis
You're welcome - I hope you agree that it's useful!

AV78 · 27/10/2020 19:20

This was pretty bog standard behaviour when I was growing up 40 years ago. My dad wouldn’t put up with any shit from my brother and my brother knew he score so didn’t push it. If he did he would have known about it. Happened a lot back then to other lads too. They were all scared of their dads but I lived in a rough area not middle class England. Maybe both will learn a valuable lesson. Your parenting of your son doesn’t sound the greatest either. Letting teens get away with endless shit is not a good idea.

Yohoheaveho · 27/10/2020 19:33

he simply lost his temper after provocation, which he shouldn't have done
I think that is minimizing, I often lose my temper but I have never assaulted anyone, he lost his temper and then he attacked. He only attacked b/c he was confident the boy couldnt physically overpower him, I bet that if he loses his temper with adult men he doesnt then go on to assault them.
I agree that he needs to stand up to the lad, but he should show him that strong man can control himself and doesnt lash out.
He is a weak man who cant control himself and that lad will be fantasizing about beating the shit outta his dad when he's big enough.

emmylousings · 27/10/2020 19:35

IMO all those saying immediatley are over simplifying and maybe over reacting a bit. Teenage boys will push boundries with their dads, that is a normal part of development. My dad and brother came to blows a few times, with a bit of pushing, a couple of slaps, was unpsetting at the time but blew over and they aplologised to each other, me and my mum. They have a decene relationship now. I think we should accept that occasional conflict is a normal part of family life. Violence IS NOT OK, that is not what i am saying. Maybe some counselling would help here.

Ilovecheese53 · 27/10/2020 19:40

@AV78

This was pretty bog standard behaviour when I was growing up 40 years ago. My dad wouldn’t put up with any shit from my brother and my brother knew he score so didn’t push it. If he did he would have known about it. Happened a lot back then to other lads too. They were all scared of their dads but I lived in a rough area not middle class England. Maybe both will learn a valuable lesson. Your parenting of your son doesn’t sound the greatest either. Letting teens get away with endless shit is not a good idea.
True but the dad made his point! And then he STILL continued so it’s a bit bad and OP knows her H so there must be more too it than H loosing his rag.

It’s like smacking your child... but you wouldn’t beat them down to the floor big difference!

DC3Dakota · 27/10/2020 19:43

This is like parenting trial in court, if ever there was one.....

AlexaShutUp · 27/10/2020 19:57

I think we should accept that occasional conflict is a normal part of family life.

I totally accept that occasional conflict is a normal part of family life, but I do not think physical violence is normal at all.

I'm starting to wonder whether there are just loads of people on this thread who either live in, or grew up in, abusive environments that have caused them to normalise this kind of aggression. It's very worrying tbh that so many people think the kid had it coming to him.

Out of interest, I have a question to those of you who think the dh wasn't abusive. Would you feel the same if he had done it to a daughter who had "pushed him to the limit"? How about if he did it to you? Genuinely trying to understand where people are coming from.

Greektome · 27/10/2020 20:16

I think that being physical in that way towards someone much weaker than you is somewhat different, and the man being strong v girl/young woman being weak is a different dynamic from man v fully grown teenage son.
I don't agree with what DH did in any event, but I don't think it is as drastic as OP makes out.

CulturallyAppropriatedName · 27/10/2020 20:20

Your husband was defending you. Doesn't make it right, but nothing winds my DH up like one of our teenaged boys being outright disrespectful of me.

If your ds had gone about saying you had pulled his pants down and/or slapped him, you could have had social services in and proving that it was a lie would have been very hard indeed.

Don't get me wrong, your DH was absolutely wrong in how he handled it, but he was backing you up.

My DH did something not hugely dissimilar to one of mine at a similar age. I think he called me a fat idiot or something. He pulled him across the room by the back of his collar. I made him leave overnight, and he wrote a letter apologising to my DS for the way he handled the situation. I made it clear that if altercations ever got physical again, there would be no coming back from it.

He has never repeated those actions and I think it was 5 or so years ago.

20mum · 27/10/2020 20:44

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

This is very hard OP.

Is your H like this with all the kids or does he particularly get on the case of Ds?

Growing males often clash with older males in the family. It sounds as if your Ds has been pushing boundaries, and was escalating to being rude to you. He needs to learn decent boundaries.
And your H needs to observe decent boundaries.

But I know two nice happy successful families where at a certain point a Dad and Teen son came to blows. It didn't happen again.

I wouldn't kick him out atm but I would demand that he talk seriously to DS, apologise, and your DS, whilst knowing that his Dad should not have grabbed him, should know that he should not have been rude to you.

This. You need to give both 'men' a way out, accepting they are who they are. It's all very well for you to say you just ignore obnoxious S, but that has trained him not to care if he is rude to you, and not to care if the household is disrupted by him and his dad having shouting matches.

What is alpha male supposed to do when his mate is being attacked? He has confined himself to the shouting matches previously, but he knows what goes on in juvenile male brains. You have taken the luxury ignoring, walking away, in other words of letting "obnoxious " S learn he can get away with insufferable bad behaviour. But family dynamic says dad can't let it escalate, and he is right. Grabbing the boy's collar and threatening was not what he would have hoped to do, but where is he meant to draw the line? After the child attacks you (or a sibling) physically, or before?

You say the boy accused you of hitting him. And that it wasn't true. Stuff is going on in his head. That's such a classic. Look at women's refuge list of the most common statements. "I never touched her she must have fallen, she did it herself, she hit me first, I was defending myself" are top of the charts. "She hit me" was the police murderer today. He choked the woman to death, breaking three bones in her neck, then cut his own arm ready to say she attacked him. Then said he accidentally fell on her while piggy backing, then his hands accidentally somehow must have been squeezing her throat till the bones broke and eventually she died (she was still sitting in her car all this time) Then he left her without notifying anyone. And he got away with it.

Let's hope this grabbing by the lapels incident will have pulled things round, but I would suggest you stop abdicating discipline and leaving the two males yelling. That's a form of assault the family is being habituated to. If H wasn't there, you would simply be forced to face up to insufferable behaviour on your own, (and you have a trainee mother batterer and wife batterer in the making, because much as you love him, that boy very much needs strong boundaries. If ever the phrase 'tough love' was appropriate, it's for re-training an aggressive teenage boy to moderate his worst behaviour)

Therefore, maybe start right now, form a united unbreakable front with H, after privately agreeing new tactics with H. He won't yell or threaten or grab, as long as you pull your weight and never walk away or ignore anything. Both of you, together, must firmly tell awkward S every time he steps out of line.

You want H to say "Don't dare speak to your mother like that" ("your sister, your brother like that") You must stand up in the same way for H. "Don't dare speak to your father like that" and "Don't dare raise your voice in this house".

(As concession for his personality, let him get away with flouncing off and slamming the door, rather than backing down or apologising. And never mention it afterwards, because as you say, he will never be wrong, in his own eyes. It's enough that he becomes re-trained to stop the unacceptable behaviour as soon as it is challenged )

Adsy1988 · 27/10/2020 20:51

Whilst it is obviously completely unacceptable, there was a time my father smacked me quite forcefully in the face and body, when I was 12 years old. I was a horrible little shit, I was pushing and pushing the boundaries, and looking back at it, as a 32 year old man with 2 DS of my own (who I would never strike), I’m not really surprised that he went for me. Doesn’t excuse it, I would never condone it, but he was incredibly apologetic afterwards, and we did have some family counselling, and I would say we had a pretty strong relationship growing up, and even now.

Will probably get shot down for this, but I wouldn’t say it’s a LTB.

Welshgal85 · 27/10/2020 20:55

I think maybe revisit the idea of family counselling. I understand that DS isn’t keen but some men and teenage boys aren’t always keen on talking about their feelings in my experience. But things go unsaid and just bubble under the surface and come out in other ways.

I think perhaps if you just arrange it and say it is happening and you are all going along, that you’re not asking that may be the best way forward. It would give a good opportunity for DH and DS to air out their ongoing issues in a better way with a professional there to help them communicate and they can also explore with you all the dynamics at play and also why DS feels the need to be so argumentative all the time. They may want to do this in separate sessions with him so he can talk freely to them.

EmpressoftheMundane · 27/10/2020 21:18

I also wouldn’t say LTB.

I come from a different culture. Where and when I grew up these kind of altercations weren’t uncommon. Your husband wasn’t sadistic, drinking or the escalator, so where I’m from, he was just asserting his dominance as man of the house over a wayward son who had insulted his mother. I remember the boys I grew up with down right bragging about being disciplined by their fathers for disrespecting their mothers. Almost a right of passage. They knew and could feel whether their fathers loved them, and were motivated by wanting them to grow up to be men they could be proud of.

I appreciate that your husband and son need to live in the norms of Britain 20/20. I just want to point out that this behaviour isn’t completely unheard of or even unnatural. We try to do better now.

I think your family can come back from this. I wouldn’t undermine my dear husband. I would support him to enforce boundaries on DS with out being physical.

Bluntness100 · 27/10/2020 21:22

I just don’t understand the people who say don’t leave, if her husband had done this to the op there would be screams of leave and report him.

But for some attacking a child is acceptable, yet it’s all domestic abuse. It’s not ok to assault a child but not ok to assault your partner.

It’s the same thing, in fact for me it’s worse if it’s your child, because they are always impotent in that situation

PandemicAtTheDisco · 27/10/2020 21:24

When my brother and father started arguing we left them to it. They seemed to play up to an audience and it was about being seen to be the big man.

I'm not sure how they eventually sorted things out between them but removing younger children and yourself so they don't have an audience may help.

GrumpyHoonMain · 27/10/2020 21:25

You seem to have (as a family) fallen into a trap of letting your DS say whatever the hell he wants without comeback. He needs to learn the consequences of lying and is old enough for you to be upfront about it - he’s lucky it was his dad who presumably loves him. If he’d mouthed off at the wrong person on the street, in many places he’d end up stabbed. He needs to learn that he can’t just say the first thing thing that comes up in his head when angry.

Bluntness100 · 27/10/2020 21:34

He needs to learn that he can’t just say the first thing thing that comes up in his head when angry

So if the op said something to wind him up because she was angry would she also need to be taught a lesson? Or is it just kids who should get it?

skodadoda · 27/10/2020 21:38

[quote shouldhavecalleditoatabix]@Throwawaynameforthis you say you've been in mn long enough to know what kind of response to expect. From the 'it's abuse' call the police! To 'it's to be expected'. The actual fact is none of us know your family dynamics. Is DH normally of good character? Have you actually tried talking to him? Family counselling or even family meetings seem like a very good approach. You punishing your husband whilst absolving your son of all responsibility doesn't seem very balanced to me.

Yes, it's an inappropriate reaction and yes in an ideal world it wouldn't have happened. I assure you right. Ow that your husband would not be prosecuted for this incident. It would involve your son making a statement in court against him and rip your family apart. SS leave kids in disgusting situations so they sure wouldn't be doing much in your family.

Having kids is the most stressful thing to survive but you've come this far. It doesn't have to be 'over' and you absolutely can come back from this. DH has already shown he is willing to do something about it. Now what about the rest of you? Get your DS and DH in counselling together. Formulate a plan to work on together for moving forwards. Plan consequences to behaviour which is appropriate and talk about the warning signs. I absolutely wish people didn't throw 'LTB' and 'abuse' into every bloody conversation. It really waters down the message and should wholly be saved for those when it is so important. [/quote]
My thoughts exactly; couldn’t have put it better.

GrumpyHoonMain · 27/10/2020 21:39

@Bluntness100

He needs to learn that he can’t just say the first thing thing that comes up in his head when angry

So if the op said something to wind him up because she was angry would she also need to be taught a lesson? Or is it just kids who should get it?

You realise right that one of the biggest reasons for stabbings amongst young boys/men is seemingly innocent comments just like this? Regardless of how the dad dealt with this incident this single time - a 14 year old boy needs to learn that saying shit to the wrong person can put him in the firing line.
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