To be fed up of DP attitude to sex

[FrostyTheNoMan]

NC

Looking for the Mumsnet view!

DP and I usually have a very happy, healthy relationship. There is just one thing that seriously bothers me and that is how he reacts when I say "no" to sex.

Usually he initiates sex (but I do too) and we have it at least every two weeks which I am fine with.

However he initiates a lot more than that and sometimes I say no. He doesn't get arsey as such but he will make a snide comment or two which just pisses me off. Tonight it has happened again and we've ended up having a huge row.

We went on a date night and DP's Mum took care of kids (DD 4 and DS 7mo). First date night in a year and had a lovely time. Over dinner it got very lovey dovey and he said at one point "I can't wait to get you home and take that dress off you". I just said "aw" or something- I wasn't against idea at the time at all but I didn't say YES DO IT either.

We come home and have a nice kiss at front door before we go in. DP mum promptly tells us that DS has cried nearly the whole time we were out and has only just got back to sleep. Within 5 mins of arriving, DS has woken up again and I need to comfort and feed him. This clearly stresses me out a bit, not great to hear.
When DS was settled, I was in bedroom getting changed out of my dress and in my pyjamas. DP comes in and says "what are you doing?" All outraged. I told him I was getting changed, I was uncomfortable in the dress. He then goes on to say "we had a lovely night, first date night in a while and I wanted to end it perfectly. But no, clearly we can't"

I said that he can't guilt trip me into sex. I was uncomfortable in outfit and wanted to get changed. He started going on and on about how he thought I wanted to have sex and that after putting baby down I would be ready.... he then said "i must have misread signals"

This made me explode. I said what fucking signals? I kissed you at the door. That doesn't mean we are definitely having sex and even if it did I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE MY MIND AT ANY FUCKING POINT.

I said to him - so are you the type of guy that if a girl was wearing a mini skirt then that's an invitation?

He was really insulted at this. All he said though was "you're my fucking fiancé" as if that changes anything.

He stormed off and has gone to sleep without saying a word. I'm fuming with his toxic behaviour which he can't even see and he seems to be fuming with me for calling him out on it.

As a bit of back story...I was seriously sexually assaulted as a teen. He knows this. I have a strong stance on boundaries and a woman's right to say no and a man's obligation to listen. As should fucking every one. he has been so supportive historically of how I deal with this trauma. Is it making me oversensitive though?

I feel at a loss of how to communicate to him on this topic because he clearly doesn't think he's in the wrong about being upset when I "reject" him. He's perfect in every other way, loving, kind, thoughtful. I love him and want him to understand where I'm coming from.

What do I do? AIBU? Is he being a huge dick?

Just dug this out for a FB thread but it's probably useful to put it here again too - even if the OP had been wildly up for it before getting through the door, she's entitled to change her mind/feelings without her DF going off at her, even in a minor snarky way.

Incels feel they are entitled to womens bodies too and that it's womens fault, that we have made them hate us.

[quote differentnameforthis]@user1481840227 It's not a very mature way to handle it and is kind of passive aggressive so i'm not surprised when sometimes men huff and puff and give off a bad vibe then.

It's not passive aggressive. It wouldn't have to happen if men took no for an answer.

What's immature is men reacting badly when they don't get free access to women's bodies.

men "huffing, puffing and giving off bad vibes" is WHY we resort to non verbal communication. But well done on being part of the problem.[/quote]
I said in my post that I wasn't referring to the OP but others who do that in general.
Another poster commented that the dress of pyjamas on was her way of saying not tonight mate.....so I was referring to the way that some people do things like that to let their partner know they're not interested or other signals instead of saying it.

There are people out there who never want to have sex with their partner again (men and women) but they refuse to be completely honest with their partners about it. That's not fair either.

It's not just men who react badly, women also react badly sometimes when they want sex and their partner doesn't want it. The responses here are generally completely different depending on whether the poster was male or female. If a woman is struggling due to lack of sex then the response is to leave. If a man is then he nearly always gets attacked over it!

I'm not part of any problem so get down off your high horse!

The non verbal communication doesn't actually do the people in that situation any good either! Generally it leads to a lot of tension and massive arguments down the line....so of course I don't think it's a healthy thing to do in a relationship!

@Kalula

Jesus Holy Christ there are some thick people. Nowhere did the Op even remotely compare him to a rapist, or insinuate he was one. Suggesting that a mini skirt would be an invitation for sex does not in any way remotely suggest he would assume he could rape her. Invitation, is the key word here. Head, wall, bang.

People aren't thick just because they interpret things differently to you. Head, wall, bang.

The tea analogy works up to a point.

A nice meal out for two analogy, however, might works better here (in that it is normally enjoyable for both parties).

If your partner implied that they were looking forward to a nice meal out and you had been looking forward to it all day and then changed their mind close to the time, they are entirely within their rights to do so but, equally, you are entitled to say that you are disappointed.

If I wanted sex and my DH turned me down I would be disappointed and it would knock my confidence. Why do women not see that this happens for me also and is just as valid as when we feel it.

I was wondering when the "what about the men?/women do it too!" lot would show up.

So many women want equality yet they themselves can't use equality. They want to be treated differently because they are a women. It's ridiculous.

I couldn't give less of a fuck if me turning down anyone for a shag hurts their feelings.

@DandyMandy

They always do. Always!

@Livelifejoyful

So many women want equality yet they themselves can't use equality. They want to be treated differently because they are a women. It's ridiculous.

What does this even mean? The OP turned her partner down for sex and he went off in a strop because he thought he was entitled to her body. Also, what you said implies that we don't have equality which is actually something that I can agree on.

[quote WellThisWentWell]@DandyMandy

They always do. Always![/quote]
Of course they do. The issue is one that affects relationships....it's not specific to one gender.

I’d be flattered that my OH found me so attractive that he wanted to make love. I see no coercion here, and feel a bit sorry for him

but what if you didnt want to make love to him. Would you have sex you didnt want just to keep him happy?

Sulking when he doeant get sex is coercion. Especially when he does it repeatedly

@NoMoreReluctantCustodians

I’d be flattered that my OH found me so attractive that he wanted to make love. I see no coercion here, and feel a bit sorry for him

but what if you didnt want to make love to him. Would you have sex you didnt want just to keep him happy?

Sulking when he doeant get sex is coercion. Especially when he does it repeatedly

Yes I would, but I’m quite highly sexed. I’d be upset if the tables were turned too.

@Livelifejoyful

If I wanted sex and my DH turned me down I would be disappointed and it would knock my confidence. Why do women not see that this happens for me also and is just as valid as when we feel it.

That's not what happened, tho.

The date night vibe was completely changed by the baby needing attention from OP, but her partner could think of nothing but his wants.

OP didn't turn him down, she just reacted to his self-entitled strop.

I don't think that I have ever had good sex.

The majority of the men I have been with have physically hurt me during sex. I didn't want it. The last guy that I had sex with squeezed my breast so hard , I know tha the was trying to cause me pain.

As women, we are a lot more vulnerable during sex than men are. They are bigger than us, that is why they should realise that when they insist on having sex, it can feel physically threatening

Sarahpaula

SarahPaula

Thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry you've been put in these awful situations x

If your partner implied that they were looking forward to a nice meal out and you had been looking forward to it all day and then changed their mind close to the time, they are entirely within their rights to do so but, equally, you are entitled to say that you are disappointed.

There is a difference between your own body and a meal for two.

I am horrified that you would think you came up with an analogy there, larrygrylls.

The minimising is pretty horrifying too.

..."what are you doing?" All outraged. I told him I was getting changed, I was uncomfortable in the dress. He then goes on to say "we had a lovely night, first date night in a while and I wanted to end it perfectly. But no, clearly we can't"

...isn't 'disappointment'.

It's someone who thinks their partner doesn't have the right to take off her own dress, let alone turn him down for sex. He wanted her costumed and set to perform.

user1481840227 It's not just men who react badly, women also react badly sometimes when they want sex and their partner doesn't want it.

but we are not talking about women, are we? we are talking about a man.

And anyone who find justification in a man (or woman) sulking and "giving off bad vibes" when they are denied access to another person's body is VERY MUCH PART OF THE PROBLEM.

So I'll stay up here on my "high horse" if it means calling out people like you who think people like the op's partner are justified.

@Buggedandconfused I’d be flattered that my OH found me so attractive that he wanted to make love

Good for you. Doesn't mean he is entitled to have sex with you when YOU don't want it though, and doesn't mean op has to feel the same.

Also doesn't mean that op isn't entitled to change out of clothing for comfort, either. And this thread isn't about you and what you "like"!

No, @larrygrylls, let's not compare women & sex to a fucking meal out with your crap analogy of If your partner implied that they were looking forward to a nice meal out and you had been looking forward to it all day and then changed their mind close to the time, they are entirely within their rights to do so but, equally, you are entitled to say that you are disappointed

We are human beings with feelings and comparing us and sex to a meal just shows what little idea you have!

@Livelifejoyful And if you then sulk, and coerce him into sexual activity, or imply that the evening was ruined, you'd be as bad as the op's partner.

@Buggedandconfused, so you would have sex you didn't want, because your husband wanted it? So therefore, because you didn't want it, you relented, and relenting isn't consenting, you know that right??

And urgh, that your dh would actually have sex with you when you didn't want it.... what kind of man does that??

@Sarahpaula As women, we are a lot more vulnerable during sex than men are. They are bigger than us, that is why they should realise that when they insist on having sex, it can feel physically threatening

Spot on. Plus we are the side that it is mostly "done to" and being on the receiving end of penetration can be a very vulnerable feeling anyway...

I am sorry you have had those experiences Sarahpaula

@mathanxiety ...isn't 'disappointment' ... It's someone who thinks their partner doesn't have the right to take off her own dress, let alone turn him down for sex. He wanted her costumed and set to perform

Yup, he wanted his fantasy and for her to perform for him. He didn't think that her need to be comfortable was important, otherwise he would have continued with the foreplay even after she was changed and for as long as she was receptive. Foreplay begins long before we actually make it to bed.

What bothers me the most though, is that all those who dismissed op have convinced her it's ok for him to behave like this. She has taken the lines that she too was in the wrong, and that this isn't as bad as all that...

That he is sorry... but I bet he would have said that if op mentioned it all those other times too. Still...

Math,

'There is a difference between your own body and a meal for two.

I am horrified that you would think you came up with an analogy there, larrygrylls.'

So, is the 'cup of tea' analogy much used in sex education concerning rape also horrific?

I did not know we had gone back in a time machine back to the 1950s where sex was the giving of a woman's body to a man. There was I thinking that women and men were equal and sex, within a long term loving relationship, was a mutually enjoyable act (yes, a bit like a nice meal out in many ways..).

I think some people have gone from the perspective of bodily autonomy (non negotiable) to the position where any negative reaction to being rejected is 'rapey' (to coin a rather dodgy phrase). The latter is a non sequitur. I think many do this to make a point, rather than because they actually believe it.

In an ideal world, of course, no one would ever have negative reactions. But, maybe fortunately for all of us, people are human and sometimes react according to how they feel, rather than ideally.

In this case, the OP had a conversation with her partner, like two adults, cleared the air (maybe you should read the thread?) and in no sense considers him 'rapey' as a person. Of course, many now feel that her opinion is not valid as she has, in some way, been gaslighted. Well, sorry, again, I do believe that most adult people, regardless of sex, are capable of formulating a view and do not need to be told how to think about their relationship by others. (Of course there are exceptions of highly abusive relationships).

Methinks the lady doth protest too much...(that is you, Math, not the OP).

Horrified at this thread, the walking wanksocks are certainly out in force recently .

So, is the 'cup of tea' analogy much used in sex education concerning rape also horrific?
@larrygrylls
No, because it is a very accurate analogy. It very clearly illustrates pressure, manipulation, and coercion. Also reluctance, aversion, and the meaning of the word No.

I am actually dumbfounded that you seem not to understand it. It's a very simple proposition. A great many people can understand that the concept of consent is key thanks to the cup of tea analogy.

It wasn't 'any negative reaction'. That is a straw man of yours.

It was yet another negative reaction on his part, the latest in a string of negative reactions, in which the OP's husband expressed his attitude that the OP doesn't have the right to disappoint him when it comes to sex. This is rapey.

And there is nothing "in inverted commas" about that term btw.

Rape is sex without enthusiastic consent. A negative reaction every time she turns him down is coercive control on his part, a reaction performed with the intent of manipulating her into changing her mind when he makes his remarks or remembering the nasty atmosphere he created next time she doesn't feel like sex. Coercive control exercised with the aim of making someone agree to sex is rape.

How much 'disappointment' can a man reasonably express, in your opinion, when turned down for sex?
Is there any point at which expressing disappointment turns into something else?
If no, please explain.
If yes, what is that point?
If yes, what is that 'something else'?
And whose opinion of what constitutes too much disappointment counts when judging what sort of reaction is acceptable, the disappointed party's or that of the party who wants sex?