To be fed up of DP attitude to sex

[FrostyTheNoMan]

NC

Looking for the Mumsnet view!

DP and I usually have a very happy, healthy relationship. There is just one thing that seriously bothers me and that is how he reacts when I say "no" to sex.

Usually he initiates sex (but I do too) and we have it at least every two weeks which I am fine with.

However he initiates a lot more than that and sometimes I say no. He doesn't get arsey as such but he will make a snide comment or two which just pisses me off. Tonight it has happened again and we've ended up having a huge row.

We went on a date night and DP's Mum took care of kids (DD 4 and DS 7mo). First date night in a year and had a lovely time. Over dinner it got very lovey dovey and he said at one point "I can't wait to get you home and take that dress off you". I just said "aw" or something- I wasn't against idea at the time at all but I didn't say YES DO IT either.

We come home and have a nice kiss at front door before we go in. DP mum promptly tells us that DS has cried nearly the whole time we were out and has only just got back to sleep. Within 5 mins of arriving, DS has woken up again and I need to comfort and feed him. This clearly stresses me out a bit, not great to hear.
When DS was settled, I was in bedroom getting changed out of my dress and in my pyjamas. DP comes in and says "what are you doing?" All outraged. I told him I was getting changed, I was uncomfortable in the dress. He then goes on to say "we had a lovely night, first date night in a while and I wanted to end it perfectly. But no, clearly we can't"

I said that he can't guilt trip me into sex. I was uncomfortable in outfit and wanted to get changed. He started going on and on about how he thought I wanted to have sex and that after putting baby down I would be ready.... he then said "i must have misread signals"

This made me explode. I said what fucking signals? I kissed you at the door. That doesn't mean we are definitely having sex and even if it did I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE MY MIND AT ANY FUCKING POINT.

I said to him - so are you the type of guy that if a girl was wearing a mini skirt then that's an invitation?

He was really insulted at this. All he said though was "you're my fucking fiancé" as if that changes anything.

He stormed off and has gone to sleep without saying a word. I'm fuming with his toxic behaviour which he can't even see and he seems to be fuming with me for calling him out on it.

As a bit of back story...I was seriously sexually assaulted as a teen. He knows this. I have a strong stance on boundaries and a woman's right to say no and a man's obligation to listen. As should fucking every one. he has been so supportive historically of how I deal with this trauma. Is it making me oversensitive though?

I feel at a loss of how to communicate to him on this topic because he clearly doesn't think he's in the wrong about being upset when I "reject" him. He's perfect in every other way, loving, kind, thoughtful. I love him and want him to understand where I'm coming from.

What do I do? AIBU? Is he being a huge dick?

If you have any questions about tea, or straw men to argue about, or alternative analogies to suggest, you can get in touch with the Thames Valley Police.

@Beefcurtains79, aren't they just...

Not sure why the term 'rapey' has annoyed you so much, @larrygrylls.

Always making snide remarks when turned down for sex equals coercion, and coercion in matters of sex is rapey.

You blew past all the salient points made by the OP, and also the very big admission made by her husband in pursuit of your own rather strange agenda here.

Things I made clear -
His behaviour seemed coercive
I did not mislead him with any signals
He shouldn't behave that way if he thinks sex isn't happening
I cannot switch from mum mode to sex goddess easily.
Getting changed meant nothing.
That I was very sorry for the skirt comment and I explained how I meant it

Things he made very clear -
He behaved poorly out of disappointment, nothing else.
He does NOT think he's entitled to sex with me
He is appalled at the thought I would think he was being coercive. I said it's just a fact, that is what his behaviour exhibited.
When he has made comments in the past before he had no idea how they were being perceived.
He thought I looked sexy and wanted to undress me and that's why he was disappointed I was getting changed but it all came out wrong.
The "you're my fiancée" statement meant "you're not a random woman I have just met that I want to have sex with, this is an emotional connection thing for me" he did NOT mean that it entitled him to sex with me.

In other words, she expressed the tea analogy in her own words.
And since he has in essence stated that he finally understands it - because he did not understand it before - hopefully he won't be a coercive dick ever again.

Math,

I don’t need any dictionary definitions from you.

How much disappointment can be expressed? As long as there is no feeling of force or fear, any amount.

That is a legitimate boundary where bad manners stray into the area of ‘rapey’. It does need inverted commas as rape is a crime with a precise definition. When you think ‘assaulty’ and ‘thievy’ are good words, I will remove the inverted commas.

Anyone is free to leave a relationship at any time.

I do find it fascinating the way adult women are infantilised by people who purport to be feminists. And the way the OP’s opinion is given no weight by you, as you believe you know an adult woman and her relationship better than she does, herself.

@larrygrylls

As long as there is no feeling of force or fear?
Well the OP clearly states that she felt coerced. Does that fall short of your very strange and quite frankly alarming 'legitimate boundary'?

You missed that. And you infantilised her by your minimising. You gave no weight whatsoever to her distress or her anger.

To include the words 'rapey' and 'bad manners' in the same sentence makes me understand why you think it's legitimate to express any amount of disappointment at being 'denied' sex. You are rejecting the word women use to describe men who behave the way the OP's partner behaves (habitually) when denied sex. Refusing to accept a term women use to describe that sort of situation and behaviour is not a good look.

I will refrain from expressing how disappointed I am to find a man in 2020 who thinks he is scoring some kind of points by sneering at feminism and who thinks it's ok for a man to coerce a woman into sex by expressing any amount of disappointment. I do this because there are no words adequate to the task.

Rape is indeed a crime with a very clear definition.

So is coercive control. I suspect you have never heard of it.

Anyone - male or female - is entitled to express disappointment at sex not happening when they had expected it to.

The key thing is how often this happens (i.e. does the desire feel excessive in the context of their relationship) and the way that disappointment is expressed. For each of these the degree and context are what matters - there is no one blanket answer.

It is not always to be interpreted as coercive; nor is it always to be interpreted as not. There is a bit of nuance here. Only the OP can decide where she stands on this. The views of random people on the net might not be helpful as we each bring our own agenda.

Mischance,

I totally agree with your post.

Math,

Please see the OP's last post below. I do not think that she will be returning (my highlights).

'FFS I WASN'T COMPARING HIM TO A RAPIST

I KNOW WHAT ONE IS.

IM NOT BEING ABUSED. I'm ok now! We're ok now.

I felt triggered and that he was being coercive. He felt disappointed and rejected.

He wasn't being coercive and I wasn't rejecting him.

We grow and adapt in relationships, when we have both had to reflect on our behaviour before, we do not make the same mistake again.

We talked it out. He listened to me and how I felt. He explained how he felt. I was there and I understood. It's all good now people.

At the time of writing my OP I was triggered with high emotions.

Thank you for all of your thoughts and perspectives'

I don't care what you think of me or my opinions. However, why do you give the OP's words so little validity? Why do you feel that you are so omniscient that you can decide what the OP feels better than her?!

@larrygrylls

Mischance,

I totally agree with your post.

Math,

Please see the OP's last post below. I do not think that she will be returning (my highlights).

'FFS I WASN'T COMPARING HIM TO A RAPIST

I KNOW WHAT ONE IS.

IM NOT BEING ABUSED. I'm ok now! We're ok now.

I felt triggered and that he was being coercive. He felt disappointed and rejected.

He wasn't being coercive and I wasn't rejecting him.

We grow and adapt in relationships, when we have both had to reflect on our behaviour before, we do not make the same mistake again.

We talked it out. He listened to me and how I felt. He explained how he felt. I was there and I understood. It's all good now people.

At the time of writing my OP I was triggered with high emotions.

Thank you for all of your thoughts and perspectives'

I don't care what you think of me or my opinions. However, why do you give the OP's words so little validity? Why do you feel that you are so omniscient that you can decide what the OP feels better than her?!

Abusers apologise. Victims accept the apology and try to rationalise what happened by minimising the abuse and convincing themselves they overreacted. This is just a normal cycle of abuse.

If we are talking about dictionary definitions, rape is not sex without enthusiastic consent, but without consent.

Obviously enthusiastic sex is the preference, but it's not mandatory! From Tired, right time of the month TTC sex, to deciding to go out and have meaningless sex with someone else after a nasty break up, to a bit if a compromise where you have mismatched sex drives, to someone staying in a relationship (and continuing to have sex) with someone they are no longer in love with. If a woman decides that she is ok with having sex, it matters not legally whether she's wildly enthusiastic, or pushing herself to do it.

Rape is such a serious crime that we need to be very careful when making up our own definitions.

Saying that expressing disappointment = coercion = rape is a very worrying prospect. It infantilises women and it minimises where womens consent really is ignored or women forced.

And coercive control also has a very strict meaning in law, with a variety of tests that have to be met. This was so far away from any of those hurdles as to make calling it coercive control absolutely meaningless. It is all on the COS website.

Maybe we should call it a bit ‘coercy’...

I totally agree about the infantilising and also projecting one’s own experiences on to what might be a very different situation.

CPS

However, why do you give the OP's words so little validity? Why do you feel that you are so omniscient that you can decide what the OP feels better than her?!

LOL, from the poster who highlighted certain parts of the OP's post...

Your claim is that coercion is basically all in the mind, all about the feelz. If someone does a performative apology afterwards then it's a case of no harm no foul.

If the victim doesn't mind, for whatever reason, then it isn't coercion, is what you are saying.

You couldn't be more wrong.

@larrygrylls

Any incident or pattern of incidents of controlling, coercive or threatening behaviour, violence or abuse between those aged 16 or over who are or have been intimate partners or family members, regardless of gender or sexuality. This can encompass, but is not limited to, the following types of abuse: psychological, physical, sexual, financial and emotional
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-intimate-or-family-relationship

We have in this case a pattern of coercive behaviour that falls under the headings of sexual, emotional, and psychological abuse, perpetrated with the intention of reducing the victim's likelihood of refusing sex in the future, arising from an attitude that the coercive individual feels entitled to sex if he has provided some quid pro quo.

The clue to how coercive it was is provided by the OP's own words. She has more than a passing familiarity with coercion. It is also evident from the DP's apology.

@larrygrylls

And coercive control also has a very strict meaning in law, with a variety of tests that have to be met. This was so far away from any of those hurdles as to make calling it coercive control absolutely meaningless. It is all on the COS website.

Maybe we should call it a bit ‘coercy’...

I totally agree about the infantilising and also projecting one’s own experiences on to what might be a very different situation.

Since you like definitions so much, you apologiser.

Sexual coercion

"Sexual coercion is unwanted sexual activity that happens when you are pressured, tricked, threatened, or forced in a nonphysical way. Coercion can make you think you owe sex to someone. It might be from someone who has power over you, like a teacher, landlord, or a boss. No person is ever required to have sex with someone else."

www.womenshealth.gov/relationships-and-safety/other-types/sexual-coercion