September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My relationship with my brother is good, occasionally he will say something that makes me think he’s on the same page as me, as in he knows they are a bit intense, but I don’t think he’s as far a long as I am and ready to accept it.

My DM would do absolutely everything with us if she could. Just recently she mused over selling her house and moving onto the estate where DB and DSIL. This wasn’t logical downsizing, the houses there are all a similar size to the one they already live in, just a bit newer. I had to point out that maybe they didn’t want her and DF living right by them and she was almost bemused by that. She doesn’t understand boundaries at all. She doesn’t understand a need for space and our own lives, because she was so enmeshed with her parents and siblings.

I totally get what you say about containment. She wanted me as a mirror image of her, and that included sharing her beliefs and opinions. It caused a lot of tension as I got older and started to express them.

Hi @AttilaTheMeerkat - thank you so much for all your advice. I hope you will be starting another Stately Homes thread.

Will be glad to do so within the next day or so.

I dont think she will change Cactus, if you can anticipate her behaviour and mitigate well in advance you might be able to keep things calm and manageable?
in hindsight much of this seems to be to do with keeping tabs on the offspring to make sure they will be available to serve them as they age, not that they will want to have a formal conversation where you have the chance to say what works for you, the aim is to maneuver you into a situation where you feel obligated and cant say no

@Ulteregome

I dont think she will change Cactus, if you can anticipate her behaviour and mitigate well in advance you might be able to keep things calm and manageable? in hindsight much of this seems to be to do with keeping tabs on the offspring to make sure they will be available to serve them as they age, not that they will want to have a formal conversation where you have the chance to say what works for you, the aim is to maneuver you into a situation where you feel obligated and cant say no

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I’ve felt for a while that I’m being groomed to be their carer when they are elderly. The thing is they are both j. pretty good health and very active, so are unlikely to need us to push them around in a wheelchair anytime soon.

The whole family seem to exist on feeling obligated and serving the elders,

groomed to be their carer when they are elderly
yup! looking back in my case there was a certain point when a plan was put into action and it was all about moving things subtly into position, I can see they put in quite a lot of groundwork.
As it happened something big and traumatic happened in my life which interrupted their plan, I saw how angry they were that my attention was diverted, how they tried to trivialize and minimize the very awful thing that happened to me.
Suddenly I woke up!!!
As you say they dont need you yet but (imo/according to my theory) they are making sure that when the time comes you are locked down and unable to back out, this might not all be conscious, it might at least in part be a response to unexamined impulses (?)
Forewarned is forearmed.

My parents divorced long ago and my other parent, (although very problematic) did not pursue or keep tabs on me in the same way, I realised it was because they had been able to 'bag' a much younger partner (20 years younger)and so already had their insurance policy locked down

Cactus sorry to be coming to this a bit late. That sounds really difficult (and quite familiar to me, honestly). It is quite natural to want that to be over but the further you move away the more they cling as past posters have said. I don't have any useful advice to add, just sympathy! Sorry.
I am struggling a bit until I can move out from my own parents' house, hopefully to support myself financially in the end. My mother is being particularly difficult. She uses my name literally every sentence and when I ask her to stop she just says she can't possibly be expected to do this. She and my dad also come into my space all the time and they will do things like slap me on the bottom playfully - again I hate this and will shrink away and ask them to stop but they never do and tell me how rude and ungrateful I am for asking. I am also taking a year off drinking and my mum is making a massive deal of drinking alcohol-free beer then she goes away and drinks wine in secret - I know because the recycling bin is full of the empty bottles! My aunt is seriously ill and apparently she nearly died the other week, so my mum came down and said "I don't know how I'm going to force [her parents/my grandparents] to speak to [my aunt]". They don't talk to her a lot because she has severe mental health problems. I suggested that she tell my grandparents about my aunt's health but she said no, that would just worry them. This is despite the fact that she constantly tells me my grandparents are worried about me when my mother passes on information about me which is very likely exaggerated and/or fabricated. I just want to get away from it all really. Unfortunately the last time I cut contact my mum not only continued bombarding with messages on every medium possible but contacted my work and then when my dad tricked me into speaking to her again told me she would kill herself if I ever did that again and her life had been ruined. Sorry, I know I've complained about this before but I know this board is full of sensible and empathetic lovely people!

If either of my parents 'slapped me playfully on the bottom' I'd punch their fucking lights out
Metaphorically of course, this is totally out of order, infantilizing you like this 😳
can you find some way to put up and maintain boundaries Cecile and work on the plan to get your own place?

@Cactus1982 this is a great and safe place to offload. Sounds like your mum is the controlling narcissist. I’ve got my controlling abusive narcissist mother in law sitting downstairs on our sofa right now watching god awful TV at 1000 decibels as she’s had a fall and is staying with us (and I will be getting her out ASAP). She’s LOVED the drama of lockdown, the disbelief of what SHE’S having to go through. She’s definitely using lockdown as a way of enmeshing her family even more. My partner now has to ring her once a day and she’s upping the ante as he “should” ring twice a day (like the other son). None of this about wanting to be close in my experience of enmeshing, as she never rings her grandchildren or daughter in law, it’s about control pure and simple. Cactus, I feel for you. It’s exhausting.

@Ulteregome your line about them getting therapy is the best! My therapist - on zoom - thought I’d said The Hag had had therapy. We laughed a long time about this unlikely event.

Monkey it's also about getting as much attention as possible, isn't it? I have to say, my mum actually has had counselling. It hasn't improved her behaviour, outlook on life or given her the remotest bit of self-awareness. My last therapist had a good way of describing it but I've forgotten exactly what it was - basically it boils down to them describing their own view of reality to a neutral third party and getting validation and affirmation from them. My parents have also done marriage counselling and my mum just uses it as a way to get another person "on her side". Going back to the individual therapy, my mother is always talking about how having counselling helped her realise why my grandmother does some things she does, but she doesn't come across as being able to empathise with her at all and still hides important stuff from her and talks about how much my grandmother needs her and for her to control every single aspect of my grandparents' lives, like what they do with their land. They are both totally compos mentis and very clever, by the way. Sorry to go on for ages, just so you're aware that this situation exists!

@CeciledeVolanges totally about attention. Not about self-development or healing. Incapable of it and I can’t decide whether they know they’re damaged or not. I was snorting when Mr Monkey suggested that she go for counselling today. You can imagine the reaction.

The Hag is utterly vile. She has been an emotional vampire today. I could see the way the day was heading so I was straight on the phone to social services and got one allocated. The girl done good in four days since The Hag arrived on Thursday night. Proud of myself.

Today she has:

Kicked off about not having a blanket wrapped round her shoulders the right way and the blanket around her knees not being right. She shouted at Mr Monkey for 20 minutes. She wanted me to do her fucking blanket game so I just call MM to do it. Last year when the fucking cunt was here, it was pillows and cushions. She’s nothing but inventive.

Not wanting social services to allocate a trained expert to wash her because she doesn’t want someone going near her “privates”. This is the woman who owns two pairs of knickers and doesn’t wear them. She’s now got us washing her. I refuse. I suggested wipes.

Kicked off about us not sitting down to eat breakfast or lunch with her. We are both working from home, we both have stressful jobs, we eat when we want. We eat a meal together at night. She doesn’t see why we should eat in the dining room.

Kicked off because her ready meal was a meat shepherd’s pie. I cooked a veggie shepherd’s pie as we are vegetarian. “I’ll eat that” “but you were insistent that we pick up your pie from your fridge because it’s sell by date was today” she ate her ground up lamb meal.

Kicked off because I didn’t show her how to microwave her meal. 1) I don’t have time 2) the microwave she has - which we bought and she’s never used - is completely different and idiot proof. Ours is like fecking NASA.

Sat on the sofa with her head down like a child. Sulked all through dinner. We just ignore her.

Starts rows over NOTHING. “I’m not shouting. I never shout. You always shout at me. I’m always in the wrong”

Left shit stained toilet roll on one of bath towels despite being given one for herself.

Left snotty tissues all over the sofa. “Do you want me to put those in the bin?” “Oh, I’m not allowed to put them on the sofa” “no, here’s the bin.”

Got upset because MM wanted to watch the news at lunchtime and when he’d finished work at 6pm. She wanted to watch fucking bastard Heartbeat at 500 decibels. “I always have to watch what you have on”.

Decided she did want sheltered accommodation this morning after she decided she didn’t last night I don’t give a fucking fuck where she lives so long as it’s not here. But I’m not recontacting her housing association again as any mooted move will be a point of contention. No more.

MM and I are exhausted and are going to bed at 9pm. “You’re just getting rid of me”. This, Bitch, is just the fucking start of getting rid of you...

Isn’t there any pudding? No, because you’re diabetic and always refuse it. But I can get you something to make your sugar go through the roof. Glucose.

Was just generally hideously abusive and THEN had the audacity to say “no one talks to me, you just walk past me” as we’re laying the table, cooking, working, washing her filthy clothes, going shopping.

Today Mr Monkey and I agreed whilst she is here (not for much longer) he does her personal care. I will cook, shop and sort out her exit.

I have found a good deal at Malmaison should I need an escape.

She's so needs to be in a specialist facility monkey I pray that she's gone soon🙏, I'm trying to remember does she have a mental health diagnosis?

@Ulteregome witchophrenia! I just have to laugh. She’s perfectly capable of being nice, just not to her family. She’s a coercive narcissist. It wouldn’t surprise me if she had major BPD.

Until I found this place of sanity, I didn’t realise the lining up of kids as servants was a thing. I think you had that? Just awful.

Been emailed this evening that I have to leave Manchester for work. Planning my night in my hotel room. On expenses. Air punch.

It's difficult to believe such a person can exist Monkey, she's like a grotesque pantomime villain😱

🏨 Hotel??
Freeeee hotel💃🏼
YESSSS😁

@Ulteregome it’s like a novel. She is COMPLETELY vile

I hadn’t thought through the care thing before - I think you’d described it on here - but this is exactly what she has calculated. I’ve read all about it now (thank you)

Disabled son = was Carer. She realised he might not be the long-term physical care option with his disabilities, the golden boy after sexually, emotionally and physically abusing his wife has fucked off completely (no one knows where he is) so MM has been lined up.

Disabled BIL does the £ side and is the emotional Carer (e.g. punchbag) and MM is now the physical Carer (and punchbag). I’m the clever, “posh” little bitch who’s worked it all out and I’m loathed for it.

She knows exactly what she’s doing. I was heading out to the supermarket yesterday. I walk, I can’t drive. “I’ll come with you.” Mr Monkey: “it’s too far”. “We can get a taxi”.

This is someone who’s “barely able to move, is ready for a home, is so ill i should die” and suddenly she wants a trip to Tesco? This is after a lockdown where she couldn’t go on her beloved daily trip to a supermarket with disabled son and we suggested she could come with us ONCE a week. “No, no, no, it would be too much for me”.

She knew it was my time out. No way was she joining me on my park bench having a mini G&T. It was bliss.

Back on the phone to social services this morning. I’ve had no sleep so I’ve treated myself to a Jay-B bed (not a usual 3am purchase!!!) The futon doesn’t cut it. Agony on my back.

But the hotel bed!!!

she knows exactly what she's doing
Yes!
I saw that my parent ('P')was getting us all arranged like pieces on a chessboard, I saw that others (my children, P's partner) had all been positioned (buttered up and kept sweet) to function as flying monkeys should pressure need to be applied to me to make me do my duty.
For me the crux of the matter is that P must have realised that I am not the sort of person to want to provide elder care, from observing me all my life P must have realised that I would duck out of it if I could, and certainly when they reached my age P's parents died quite suddenly, P had decades of freedom and holidays, it's as if P wanted to make sure I didn't get any notions freedom and holidays!
Rather than think 'no I don't want to impose myself on my daughter, so I will move to retirement accommodation etc' they decided that I should be trapped into doing what they wanted. I really do have the sense that this is a long-term deliberate strategy, P was always an iron fist in a velvet glove but I only ever saw the velvet glove because that was the way P designed it😳

The more I think about it the more I realise that actually DM is really a bit pathetic. That might sound mean, and it probably is. But the image she presents to the world is totally different to the one we see. People outside the family see a strong, outgoing no nonsense woman. I see a needy weak woman who is totally obsessed with what people think of her. A woman who is emotionally stunted and passive aggressive and expects people to know what she wants with telling, and who sulks like a very young child when things don’t go her way. She actually quite childlike in a lot of areas on reflection.

I also don’t think my parents marriage is equal as I’ve always assumed. She always does exactly what my DF wants and her whole life seems to be to want to please and keep him happy. He’s not abusive in any shape or form and has always been a hands on Dad. But it’s something I’ve noticed in recent months. It’s not fear. It’s almost like she thinks she has to keep him happy because that’s her job. Old fashioned maybe? Who knows?

I forgot to say, I think it’s a way of avoiding conflict. Even normal everyday stuff.

@Ulteregome I’m here. At 3ami bought myself a sofa bed. It arrived this afternoon. I’m backtomoorw. Love to you. I have slept on a bton since Hag Gate restated. I love my bed.

@Ulteregome that’s awful. Sooooo manipulative. So, you’re not allowed to have the middle age P had? Awful. It really is viewing people as servants. The thing is the velvet glove is insidious. You can’t put your finger on what’s going on. You sense it, though. You have to be 100% alert all the time. It’s emotionally exhausting.

I’m up as The Hag has got up and is washing herself and dressing herself (yes, yesterday she couldn’t do it. She must have been to Loudres in the night) The reason she is up and dressed is that at 10am we’re off to her flat/slum to meet the social worker (I set that ball in motion when she broke her arm on Thursday) and get her back there with a care package. She wants to demonstrate that she can look after herself so they won’t put her in a home (if only) she will be as nice as pie to Mr Social Worker. I will not budge on her going back there ASAP.

After three hours sleep on the awful futon on Tuesday night, I bought myself a chair bed thing at 3am. Best £80 I’ve ever spent. I’m in the box room, Hag has our bedroom and Mr Monkey is on the sofa bed. I really can’t do sleep deprivation as it triggers bipolar episodes. Bed arrived yesterday afternoon. “What have you bought a bed for?”

Yesterday was the day when I lost it. We’ve asked her to let Mr Monkey working downstairs knows when she climbs our lethal stairs. Not great for her normally but with a broken arm? She didn’t ask him (how to set off some more drama) and then wobbles at the top of the stairs and I grab her. Cue accusations of elder abuse. I was screaming at her after that. And I’m not ashamed of myself - I feel bad that MM had to see it, he hates conflict (no wonder given his violent childhood) - but she fucking needed to hear it.

Quiet-ish all day. The usual gripes. And some tiresome digs over us sitting in the dining room eating our dinner. I fed her at 5pm because I knew after a day when we’d been sorting out hospital appointments, doctors, social workers MM and I would be working til at least 7pm. And I’m considerate. .

We sat down to dinner at 8pm EXHAUSTED cue her “oh, so you don’t want to be with me”. “I’m just sat here on my own” “I suppose I’ll just take myself off to bed” as she’s sat in the living room watching utter shit on TV at 500 decibels.

BUT THE END IS IN SIGHT.

@Cactus1982 no, you’re not being mean. You deal with the difficult part of your mum. Someone said on her about narcissists (I don’t know whether your DM is one, The Hag certainly is) that their development is stunted and they are very childlike. The Hag demonstrates that. The sulking and passive aggression is awful. It’s exhausting. You have my utmost sympathies.

NEW THREAD:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?watched=1

@AttilaTheMeerkat - hope this is okay. I had massive anxiety that the thread would fill up and get lost in the ether. It's a life saver for so many of us!