September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Argghh, so sorry Monkey that you've had to deal with the screaming terror again, but this sounds very hopeful?
into sheltered accommodation
if you can just cope till this is in place, well, that's her contained so she cant cause such stress & chaos...surely?

May I ask advice from this wise group?

My mother and I stopped speaking a few years ago - she is a toxic person and has been since I was a child, I won’t go into details unless helpful to understand the situation. Her behaviour at several very emotionally fraught family events was the last straw and I stopped making any contact and she did too.

She got back in touch about a year ago. She wants to ‘start again’. But she has never acknowledged she did anything wrong - she has always thought I am wrong, and my sister who she was as bad to.

We are now in the position of texting, sometimes not for weeks, sometimes a few times a day. We rarely have phone calls - when we do they are stilted.

As far as I am concerned, this contact keeps my elderly grandmother happy, so I’ll put up with it. But it’s very false. Before we go any deeper, how do I start the conversation with her where I explain how I feel and try to get her to understand and apologise?

I’m pregnant and I don’t want her to have anything to do with her grandchild. I don’t know how to start that conversation.

Thanks

Hi DeusEx
Personally I wouldnt even try, if you want to have any kind of a relationship with her I would let go of any hope that she will ever properly acknowledge you
as painful as it is
If I think about contacting my mother now, well I think I'd just steam in and give her hell, and then some.

oops, posted too soon...
maybe just let the sleeping dog lie?
what ultimately do you want? Maybe you want some answers and insights about your childhood, in which case you could draw her out and see what info she gives you from which you can make your own conclusions

@DeusEx that’s grim. Unfortunately, they are incapable of genuine apology. Everything is about them and they really don’t believe they can ever be wrong. It’s really sad for us “normals”.

@Ulteregome oh, thank you. I’m about to crack open the wine.

She’s going back to the slum as soon as possible. I’m not having her in our house. She makes the atmosphere toxic. We’ll sort out sheltered accommodation, she probably won’t want it. The carers might not be in place next week but we can move her out of here ASAP.

She pointed out there was something on the floor “helpfully” so I got the hoover out and proceeded to hoover for 20 minutes to ruin her watching of shit telly at 100 decibels while I’m trying to work. It’s childish but I need to fuck her off in an equally passive aggressive way. Fun, actually.

She’s an off the scale narcissist: “has your mum asked how I am?” “No”. My mum asked how I am and to remind me that there’s no wine in prison.

Wine open! You guys are amazing! Thank you.

No wine in prison
Hang in there!

Deus

Don’t put up with this for the sake of your elderly grandmother. She needs to hear your truth and any hurt feelings on her part is no reason to put up with such falseness from your toxic mother.

It is really no point whatsoever in trying to explain how you feel to your mother because she does not care. Toxic people as well never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. She has not changed in all the years since your childhood.

Keep any and all children you go onto have well away from your mother. I would start to further reduce all contact before your child is born.

Hang on in there @MonkeyfromManchester - really good that you have a plan and that you have detached from The Hag's chaos. Keep badgering social services and get her out of your house as soon as you can.

@DeusEx - Attila is right. You'd be wasting your time trying to get an apology or even an acknowledgement of your mother's behaviour.

Abusive people are unable to face up to their behaviours. Part of me thinks they are actually unaware of their behaviour and the damage they cause. Any self-reflection for them is entirely self-centred.

You might as well draw a line under it all now. Your grandmother won't be around forever and you can't live your life trying to please other people. Untangle yourself from it and know that you will be a far better mother than she ever was.

@Sicario. After a relaxed and civil evening with a delicious Turkish takeaway she has predictably reverted to type. Screaming row as she wanted a rubber glove to go over her cast which, of course, didn’t fit and she had to use the plastic bag we suggested. I’ve now bought her some waterproof thing to go over it - yep, I’m buying everything to make her transition to the slum to have no “excuses” to stay here possible. She’s been VILE to Mr Monkey. And then bitched about us to brother in law (he’s put up with the abuse for years and has Stockholm Syndrome) on the phone. I take great delight in standing in the living room to hear it. And now it’s we’re “going behind her back to sort out social services”. Damn right, they’ve got an accurate picture on her and her needs so we don’t have lies and avoidance from her. She’s wheedling to live here with the guilt trip “you don’t want me here.” I think we’re supposed to say “god, yes, we’d love you to live with us”. Mr Monkey said yesterday: no we don’t want you here beyond waiting for social services to sort out a care package and adjustments in your flat. We’re not even waiting for the adjustments. FFS.

Hi all I see a lot of chat about narcissistic parents does anyone have experience of a narcisstic sibling? Examples include and not exhaustive,

A. Being involved in every single family members life, being involved in everyone’s business possibly stirring the pot and causing difficulties in the family playing other family members off each other.

B. Generally chaotic always causing parents some
Kind of heartache and dramas including poor relationship choices, marriage breakdowns one thing after another since teenage years.

C. Despite causing major family heartache parents still favour this sibling and Basically give them the most time and attention, which is very frustrating.

Does this sound like a narcissistic sibling ? It’s been going on for many years and would explain a lot would really value opinions from others. It has caused me a lot of upset and wonder if LC is the way forward x

I'm not an expert but it certainly at best sounds like a dysfunctional one. I don't know if you read the boat analogy up thread but there might be resonance there for you?

Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it.

For a long time, my mum didn’t speak to my grandmother or to her siblings. She got back in touch with them 5 or 6 years ago - after making my wedding incredibly awkward and about her by not speaking to them - and they’re so worried about her cutting them off again. They’re a tight knit Irish family - family relationships really, really matter and they have been accepting of other bad behaviour in relatives in the spirit of forgiveness. I’m finding it hard to get past that mentality and be the one who upturns the apple cart.

I’m tempted to just go along with it and keep her at arms length for the time being until she is a real shit again, at which stage I’ll just call the last straw and cut her off. It’s easier at the moment because lockdown in the U.K. means she can’t bother my sister much and I live overseas (very far away) which helps. But when I get back next year she will want to see the child.

Our relationship isn’t what it was. I call her out when she’s being a dick and she tends to back down. But it’s from a distance.

Is it possible to keep it as just a really low contact relationship for the sake of my family? Or asking for trouble? I think you’re right she probably won’t apologise for years of hurt and psychological damage.

Her behaviour is so insidious. It isn’t shouting and screaming. It’s gaslighting and deep, deep cuts with words and silence.

It is possible for a LC relationship to work bit it will come at a price to you, your self esteem, your sense of peace. Is it worth it? Since I had counselling with an insightful counsellor, it really made me evaluate why I was let them make me feel bad to keep their dysfunctional dynamics going. It gave me the strength to step away and by goodness, it still feels like such a weight has been lifted.

@Mumto32021 - yes, my sister is The Destroyer. She is a carbon copy of my abusive mother.

@MonkeyfromManchester

DeusEx it might not be the best thing to confront your mother with your truth and your hurt feelings, as the best-case scenario is that she will just have her own precious feelings hurt, will likely be unable to hear the truth let alone accept it, and the backlash to you risks being pretty horrible. Can you talk to someone else who you trust and won't react like that about how you feel? I really sympathise with you, it sounds like you've been manipulated into a rock and hard place situation there.

anything you say passes through the lens of their own dogma, it will not be received as you intended, it will be squished and squashed into whatever thing best suits their own very pressing agenda

True, Also means that you can feel even more frustrated and unheard. I know I did.

"I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want."

Muhammad Ali

DeusEx

re your comment that I have separated out:-

"Is it possible to keep it as just a really low contact relationship for the sake of my family?"

No and more importantly why would you want to?. Why are their needs more important than your own here?. Ask yourself too whether you would have tolerated such behaviour from a friend.

"Or asking for trouble? "

Yes. If you let her in trouble will most certainly come your way. You also need to keep her far away from your child.

"I think you’re right she probably won’t apologise for years of hurt and psychological damage".

There is no probably about it, she will not. Toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Hi everyone, I just need to offload on here if that’s ok. My situation isn’t as bad as some on here, but basically my family are very co dependent and enmeshed with one another. Both my parents came from enmeshed families, my DM especially so and they seem keen to follow that pattern with DB and want to be in constant contact with us, presumably because that’s all they know and it’s normal to them. Pre lockdown they expected to see us in person several times a week, now it’s texting and FaceTiming and it’s absolutely smothering.

DM in particular seems desperate to cling onto us both and uses money as tool to control us. She even sabotaged both DB and I’s attempt to go away to University. I stayed at home and commuted and DB did an apprenticeship instead. I wasn’t aware at the time but we were both manipulated into it with hindsight. I’ve read Toxic Parents and believe my DM’s self esteem is dependent on us being dependent on her and the thought of us being fully independent and her not having constant access to us causes her real distress. She doesn’t have any sense of self, other than being a mother. But that’s not our fault.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, DM is also totally emotionally unavailable and never gave us hugs or told us she loved us. She was obsessed with maintaining her image and how people saw her, and whenever we went anywhere we were always told ‘don’t show me up’. Not behave yourselves, no, we weren’t to show her up because she’d look bad if we misbehaved.

I don’t know what I want really? Sometimes I feel like emigrating to Australia to get away from it all. Even if she goes on holiday she will bombard us with texts, WhatsApp’s, FB messenger etc telling us what she’s doing and sending photos.

Sorry I just needed to get all of this off her chest.

Hi Cactus👋 seems to me you have a very good level of insight into the situation!
It would be nice if she could acknowledge her own psychological makeup and seek therapy... Yeah I know it would be good if pigs could fly too🐷
How is your relationship with your brother if he is like minded with you then you could perhaps come up with a strategy between you?
There might be a way to humour her and keep her calm without her having too much impact on your life, but probably she will cling all the harder the instant she senses you backing away.
there is also the understandable resentment at having your life constrained just to appease her, the deliberate Sabotage of your further education.
I've recently spent time researching through my old diaries and letters, I see the way that they tried to constrain me and mould me in their image, shut me down if I spoke out about anything that might make them look bad, for me the diaries seem to take the place of a like-minded sibling it's a way of retrospectively validating myself.
but I digress... do you think that some form of low contact/ grey rock /backing away slowly approach has any utility for you?