September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Finny😊
Hi dreadfully cruel of your mother to be so dismissive and cold about your lovely children, she does not deserve any of your daughterly devotion, I hope you know and understand that even if you don't find yourself able to break the habit/training.
your children and your grandchildren will always think of you with love and genuine gratitude, no one will think that about your mother no matter how 'catwalk' she looks.
You deserve some glamour in your life if that's what you want.
Hope you're ok😊

Finny

You are not your mother and you are a separate person from her. You also have two additional qualities that she lacks; empathy and insight.

You seem to carry an awful lot of fear, obligation (particularly that) and guilt re your mother which are actually but three of many damaging legacies such toxic and inadequate parents leave their now adult offspring.

Your mother taught you how not to parent and otherwise behave to other people. I would also think your daughters do not particularly like their grandmother either; BTW did she favour one child over the others?.

Its never too late to have boundaries and to review these frequently.
How would you feel about reducing the frequency of contact; say calling her every 2-3 days or seeing her say once every two weeks rather than once a week?. You do not owe your mother anything let alone a relationship here. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not fundamentally changed. Such people too never apologise nor accept any real responsibility for their actions.

I could do with some advice please.

I've been maintaining a LC with DM for nearly 6 months now. She's now started to text my youngest DC and offering them trips out (ignoring the lockdown we are still in). Youngest has no awareness of what's going on as I didn't want them to know how I felt and DM has in the past accused me of 'brainwashing' them. I haven't told them a thing as I wanted them to have a normal relationship with their DGM (and as a child, I was used as en emotional crutch by her and I would never do the same with them).

I'm annoyed that she's gone directly to one of my DC. I've ignored the last few texts even though I've written how I feel about her accusations, her inability to recognise what she does etc (not sent what I've written though).

DC replies (to paraphrase) 'Hi Gran! I'll ask Mummy' and her response was "bring Mummy too".

Do I continue to grey rock or should I address this. I don't want my DC drawn into this nonsense but when lockdown lifts, I'll need to address it properly or else they'll wonder why I've stopped seeing her.

She isn't a very hands on DGM - once a week or fortnight visits where she buys them unnecessary and useless crap.

Sorry - rambling. Despite the LC, o know the issues are still very much 'there'.

Nel

You need to address this now and tell your children age appropriate truth re your toxic mother. As she can no longer get at you so easily due to your low contact (and low contact often leads to no contact) she is now starting on your children (also to get back at you through using them). They are not aware that they are being manipulated here by their nan. This has to stop completely for their sake as well as your own and you will need to sever all ties with her. It is not possible to have any sort of relationship with someone as disordered of thinking as your mother is. You've also been trained by her to serve her at your overall expense.

If you find your mother too toxic/difficult or otherwise too batshit to deal with, its the SAME deal for your children also. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up; a mistake that many adult children of narcissistic parents in particular make here is that they allow the children to have a relationship with the toxic grandparent and hope that the parent will behave better this time around. Now you are seeing a not too dissimilar toxic dynamic being played out with them. Your mother has not really changed in the years since you were yourself a child.

I would also bar her number from your children's mobile phones.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat she's never had them on her own - I will never allow that. Besides, she takes so many opioids, I don't feel she's safe.

I feel like sending her what I wrote to be honest so that she's utterly clear about how I feel. I've pointed out that she manipulates situations to make her a victim, how she does this and then sends DB to do her bidding. Fed up of the pair of them and their bitterness and their victim
complex.

I had a nightmare very recently that my DF had died and that my DM after 40 years of divorce abs nastiness, had forced her way into the family car to sit with DBro, ignoring me DSM.

It's all I can think about now - like I'm mentally preparing myself. I wouldn't put it past them to do this.

*and, not abs.

"I feel like sending her what I wrote to be honest so that she's utterly clear about how I feel. I've pointed out that she manipulates situations to make her a victim, how she does this and then sends DB to do her bidding. Fed up of the pair of them and their bitterness and their victim
complex".

Don't do this because she will merely use that as ammo to further bash you with. Toxic people like nothing more than a fight or the last word and you would be handing both to her on a plate here. Its actually no point engaging at all because she has no empathy and no insight. Her DB here acts as a flying monkey and he is not interested in hearing your side of things either. Therefore his opinion should be ignored.

Your mother is indeed not an emotionally healthy nor safe person to be at all around. Ensure going forward she has no direct access to your kids either.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat.

Sorry for gatecrashing. Long term lurker and I've read a lot of the SH threads, but never had the urge/courage to post.

Abusive (mostly emotional and coercive but sometimes physical) parent has just died (not covid). We've been non-contact for a decade (their choice).

I've been asked to go to the funeral. I'm worried I'll regret it if I don't. There are only about 10 people going and I have never met any of them since they ruthlessly cut me out and rebuilt a new life. To counteract I'm worried I won't cope if people are saying how fabulous they are. And they will have all been told what a bitch I am, so I'm worried they'll have a go at me.

To complicate things DD is vulnerable (previously hospitalised with similar respiratory infection). I'd never forgive myself if I caught something at the funeral and passed it on.

No siblings and other, non-abusive parent (also a victim) not going.

I just don't know what to do. I know no-one can tell me what to do, but has anyone not gone and regretted it? Or gone and regretted it?

Hi DogsRus73
I'm tending towards dont go to the funeral, it doesnt sound as if it's going to benefit you in any way, the person(s) who asked you to go, are they people who you'd trust to have your interests at heart?
You could always have a private ceremony to 'mark' the passing if you feel it will help you?
When I say 'mark' that could be a 'goodbye and good riddance' kind of marking if that's what you need....

There is no way on gods green earth that I will be going anywhere near my mother's funeral when the time comes, or to any other member of my family of origin.

The way I see it - it makes no difference to the person who is dead, and the ones who are alive are still the same toxic people (who will no doubt be jacked-up on extra drama and hatred given the excuse of a funeral).

This is the same reason I have missed two weddings of very well loved niece and nephew, because their parents are nightmares.

Thanks for the advice.
Invite was from the second spouse who I've met twice, last time was their wedding. They got divorced not long after. Don't know if there's any malice towards me from them as I don't really know them or how much they believed him.
I've decided not to go, just worried I'll regret it.
Private ceremony sounds a good idea, maybe on the same day. Kids think I should just burn all their photos but I'd probably end up burning the house down. Might just shred them instead.

or
....make a paper coffin, put all the photos in, burn it (in a safe manner) and wave the smoke goodbye:)

I’ve only read a few posts on this thread, but I’ve said before that I often worry about the advice given, and have reported it to Mumsnet on more than one occasion.
Don’t be drawn into this anonymous advice from people with their own agendas.

Seek professional impartial advice.
Not everyone is toxic and needs to be blocked, and god only knows what grey stone is.

There is much to worry about in this advice in my opinion.

and have reported it to Mumsnet on more than one occasion
Oh really?
That's nice for you🙂

Seek professional impartial advice
Agree with you on this point Silver and if you do read the thread you'll find that we frequently recommend that posters seek professional advice with these very difficult and painful issues
This is a thread where we support each other, where we can speak without judgement and know that we will be treated kindly, but thank you for stopping by to say hello, I hope reporting to us to the management doesn't take up too much of your time 🙂

Silver

Clearly you are a unhelpful person with way too much time on their hands if you are reporting the contents of posts on this particular thread to MN. This is not AIBU.

DogsRus73

This second now divorced spouse who invited you clearly has their own agenda (i.e. not interested in hearing your side of things) along with absolutely no idea or understanding of the history of no contact.

Examine your reasons re feeling any apparent regret here. Your parent had a choice when it came to you all and they chose to abuse; there is no justification or excuse for doing that.

As Sicario writes in her comment which bears repeating, "The way I see it - it makes no difference to the person who is dead, and the ones who are alive are still the same toxic people (who will no doubt be jacked-up on extra drama and hatred given the excuse of a funeral)".

Quite taken aback by Silver's comments. Going no contact is the HARDEST thing, and the stately homes thread is a godsend for all those who find themselves struggling with the concept of removing themselves from family members who bring them nothing but hurt.

The only way to deal with vexatious people is to stay well away.

I’ve not posted here for a while after chatting her with you amazingly supportive gals b4 Xmas about my incredibly toxic 84 year old mother in law aka The Hag.

Mr Monkey and I had the year from HELL with her last year. She was ill in Jan (3 days in hospital with what we now suspect was Covid) followed by convalescence for FIVE weeks at our tiny house. Every day was a toxic round of viscous arguments and bullying my partner. She was absolutely angling to stay here long term. I set up social workers and temporary home care.

Then her flat was being done up and we let her back to stay. She stayed for 10 days of the six weeks of repair and then we chucked her out.

Christmas was a relief as she preferred to be the martyr in her slum of a flat. She behaved for two weeks over NY which was like her being possessed by a benevolent spirit.

Now we’re back to normal:
“You never ring me” (MM phones once a day)
“My life is terrible” (she was physically abusive to her 3 sons - we’re talking trips to casualty)
“No one does anything from me” (we take her to medical appointments, MM’s disabled brother is treated like a servant and pre-C19 waited on her hand and foot and has had no life for 20 years since she retired. She actually mooted the idea of moving in with him!)

So, we’re back to normal after two weeks of reasonable behaviour. I used to think that this was reasonable but my counsellor pointed out that this is another strategy in coercive control.

They really do use money as control, don’t they? She’s giving MM £300 for his birthday and it’s been all about him going round (we live 10 minutes walk away) to pick it up for a week now. Today he’s gone round - with support of counsellor I no longer do visits, medical appointments or join phone calls and wow, is my mental health better for it (I have bipolar) - and he has to gird himself for an abusive visit. It’s a rhetorical question, but why are these narcissist c**ts operating in a parallel universe of vileness. I’m with Philip Larkin on they fuck you up your mum and dad. In her case it’s not “they may not mean to but they do”. She knows EXACTLY what she’s doing with all her strategies.

It’s absolutely extraordinary to me that the other brother (sexually, physically, emotionally and financially abusive to his lovely wife and abandoned his two sons) isn’t seen as a direct consequence of The Hag’s abusive parenting. She certainly doesn’t see it “I don’t understand it monkey he was brought up properly” and “I have no family left”. WTF - you want that bastard in the family despite all he’s done. I can certainly see how narcissists usually spawn one who’s a carbon copy.

So, she’s had her first jab and now it’s the angling to get the next one and bubble with servant son. This is despite him being disabled and not able to physically cope with her appointments and shopping trips. But yep, bubble away and we’ll swop to my mum who’s a positive 70 something. Fuck knows when that will happen but praying for the day. I’ll enjoy the thanks we’ll get.

To everyone on here, who’s dealing with narcs, I’m sending supportive vibes and an honourary medal for what we’re putting up with.

The realisation of the different strategies is a REVELATION to me.

@MonkeyfromManchester - you sound like you're doing well with handling The Hag. Finding that emotional disconnect is so important, and the difference it makes to our mental health is incredible. Keep on keeping on!

Silver you could easily google the term 'grey rock' if you wanted to understand it.

Going no contact is not something anyone on this board does on a whim. We're here because we are the kind of people who agonise over such decisions. If you read what people are posting you'll see it is usually a last resort after everything else has failed.

I've been on here for many a year with various names and received much warmth and good advice. It has been a refuge from heartache and pain. Shame on you @SilverSemblanceSoftly for trying to damage a safe space. If this doesn't have resonance for you here feel free to leave it to those who it does.

Can't help but think that someone has gone no contact with Silver and she's looking for someone to blame